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ishikabe

Fat Turrets, Swarm, and Tournament Results

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My friends and I have a large collection of ships. We've played almost every match up. I've seen Decimators/Flying Saucers win, and I've also seen them die in the first two rounds. I've seen random builds like 2x A-Wings + 1 E-Wing that wrecked everyone. The same thing with 2 HWKs plus another ship. But the current tourney results is what happens in head to head games, there are tiers. You can relate this to Street Fighter, League of Legends, etc. Some ships/characters will just be better, almost uncounterable. That's your top tier. Some ships will have multiple hard counters, that's your middle tier. And some ships are just niche/can be beat by most, that's the bottom tier/we don't know what to do with this yet tier.

 

Hopefully....Wave 7 brings about something that gives us at least another hard counter to turrets/swarms. Maybe it will be bombs, maybe it will be another awesome upgrade card like Rebel Captive.

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I love how fels this big bogey man that'll dominate the game if turrets went away, there are so many ways to stress him it's silly once he's got more than one token he's pretty much dead because he becomes very predictable in terms of movement.

Fact is people are using turrets as a crutch and ffg has to kick it out from under them for the good of the game.

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I don't like implicating people in my turret hate.

 

The advantage itself is bull, that's it. I don't enjoy how the advantage allows ships to casually ignore facing to fling dice at my ships often before they shoot and then potentially score lucky hits (green dice.......) that wildly sling the game and against which I have no counterplay <_<

 

 

Heavily agreed about Soontir, though. From the way people describe him as some unstoppable badass, you'd think he;d have a turret too :P

 

but seriously, Soontir is arced so he actually has to choose between running away and shooting you

 

While he's a nigh-invincible late game ship, he's not even close to as tanky as your typical bloated large ship and one solid block won't leave him at high hull + c3po + w.e action-independent slew of upgrades you get to take onto a large ship (pilot ability dice modifications, predator, gunner etc) and it won't leave him with the ability to casually shoot at anything else (blocking can influence facing to a devastating degree, even firesprays can get shafted by it; just not turrets)

 

A blocked soontir is a Tie Fighter, at best a Tie Fighter with + 1 shield or + 1 agility.

 

Soontir is a powerful ace, but he's nowhere near whisper levels and he's only really amazing now because evade + thrusters + focus + agility is unprecedentedly useful against all these turrets (and alongside them, apparently). He's also great leading a mini-swarm, because his price relative to whisper allows you to add an entire tie fighter over the phantom.

 

This belief, however, that turrets are somehow necessary to counter arc-dodgers by completely eviscerating their only advantage (thus resulting in the necessity of auto-thrusters) is baloney imo. Soonts is a difficult pilot to use and a single mistake can very much result in him popping (pending the miracles of rngesus). He is not Whisper 2.0

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I love how fels this big bogey man that'll dominate the game if turrets went away, there are so many ways to stress him it's silly once he's got more than one token he's pretty much dead because he becomes very predictable in terms of movement.

Fact is people are using turrets as a crutch and ffg has to kick it out from under them for the good of the game.

So all the players who have been winning major tournaments with turrets have done so because of a crutch? The game seems to be doing quite well seeing how Gen con sold out of 200 tickets for the tournament in just a few hours.

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.
 

Sure, if you don't want turret primaries to be viable. Which, I imagine many want.

What's not to want about it? Parity? Being able to play regular ships again? Or was it a sales ploy to get folks to buy them in the first place, which smacks of GW salesmanship. Release OP model -- reap huge sales bump -- depricate OP model -- make new OP model --> repeat cycle. 

 

If it takes making the large based turret ships not viable to bring the focus back to small based ship dogfighting then so be it.

This would just create Soontir-Wing. It would be far worse.

Eh, Soontir can be dealt with. Half the time his most viable move is green hard 2. Even if he is invincible he's only throwing a single 3 dice attack that doesn't stack gunner and fcs or predator, so he's not as game breaking as Whisper is/was.

A meta dominated by Soontir and 5 Obsidians? I'll take that any day over Turretwing.

 

 

We can agree to disagree. I'm not interested in throwing another ship on the unplayable pile.

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Now back to the op.

Swarms haven't been effective since wave 4. The lie purported as 7 tie swarms being the fat turret killers hasn't been a reality since Han shoots first was for created. Once c3p0 dropped the survivability of fat Falcons surpassed that of 6-7 ship builds that easily loses a ship a turn. Right now the closest thing to a competitive swarm is BBBBZ. It's a 5 ship build and plays much like a swarm but has the lasting survivability to play with the big boys.

 

That is a bit of twisting of history yourself. Han Shoots First has existed since Wave 2. I don't think Threepio is what has given the advantage vs Swarms. It is the Z-95, changing what was a 3 ship build into a 4 ship build. 

 

And that's the thing that annoys me. There are a LOT of factors that have lead to Falcons being strong. Threepio is just the lazy boogey man. Between the hyper mobility of the Phantoms and the abilty to fill your squad out with cheap Z-95s, it it was just a recipe for the Falcon to return to the top tables after the B-wing hit. 

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I love how fels this big bogey man that'll dominate the game if turrets went away, there are so many ways to stress him it's silly once he's got more than one token he's pretty much dead because he becomes very predictable in terms of movement.

Fact is people are using turrets as a crutch and ffg has to kick it out from under them for the good of the game.

So all the players who have been winning major tournaments with turrets have done so because of a crutch? The game seems to be doing quite well seeing how Gen con sold out of 200 tickets for the tournament in just a few hours.

 

People have said they cant do as well unless they take a turret, that means they are leaning heavily on it to do well, so it's a crutch.

 

When people played 40k and all you saw were space wolves at tournaments the crutch they were leaning on was razorbacks and armour in general being really tough to kill in 5th.

 

In 6th the crutch was flyers that were hard to shoot down because GW hadn't given anyone anti air units yet.

 

You can do well without turrets but it means more effort and people are lazy so we take the easy option when we can so we get the current situation and it's not healthy.

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So all the players who have been winning major tournaments with turrets have done so because of a crutch? The game seems to be doing quite well seeing how Gen con sold out of 200 tickets for the tournament in just a few hours.

First of all, games with bad rules can do very well. 40k is the pergect example.

Turrets are not a 'crutch' - they are a game mechanic. That mechanic, when tied with large point investments, has a serious advantage when it comes to maneuving and durability. In the end, fat turret mechanics make it easier to win. Just stay away from B-Wings. Fat turrets can and do lose. They still require thought and skill when maneuvering, it is just that the consequence of a bad move is minor for a fat turret when the equivalent would be major for most other ships.

Finally, fat turrets are not as big of a problem as some in this thread are claiming. If they are that reliable, then I challenge those voices to go win a regional with one. Just because they are the best shot for a wing does not mean that they are the only reasonable shot for a win. A fat Han list is only one BBBBZ match away from missing the top 8.

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personally, I don't understand the "if it's so bad, why don't you fly it" arguement

 

a.) I ******* hate primary turrets, I would never touch one let alone own one

 

b.) we got people already winning regionals with fatties with or without my contribution :P

 

 

note, I don't support the "crutch" theory, I just think primary turrets have no place in this game

Edited by ficklegreendice

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note, I don't support the "crutch" theory, I just think primary turrets have no place in this game

 

It is something you are either going to have to learn to accept or move on to another game, then. Turret primaries have existed since near the beginning. They are not going anywhere. 

Edited by Sithborg

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note, I don't support the "crutch" theory, I just think primary turrets have no place in this game

 

It is something you are either going to have to learn to accept or move on to another game, then. Turret primaries have existed since near the beginning. They are not going anywhere. 

 

 

there are two primary turrets in the game (not counting the K-wing) and FFG has already proven themselves willing to errata things like phantom de-cloak

 

I'm willing to believe FFG will either make them less idiotic by introducing more counters (thank god for auto-thrusters finally letting interceptors see the light of day) diluting their idiocy (YT-2400 and K-wings are great ships that downplay the primary turret advantage in favor of more involving game mechanics) or just straight up keeping their numbers low knowing how poorly the rule affects the game (doing an amazing job with Scum so far). They kinda dropped the ball on the decimator, though, since oicuun is so rarely seen, chiraneau's range restriction is too lenient, torps suck, and bombs are so rarely used on them. It became just another boring fattie :(

 

Oh well, I still have faith in this company :)

 

 

Just because this single garbage ability has been in the game since wave 2 doesn't mean it has to stay.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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What Rapture said!

Personally I love to face a fat turret with my Tie swarm. It is hard and tiring, especially after a long day of tournament play, but it is doable.

I've won a quite a few tournaments with it including a national (70+ players) in wave 4, a store in wave 5, and I can tell you that Phantoms are much more of a threat than fat turrets to a well played swarm.

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I wouldn't mind flying a fattie squad every once and a while, but when everyone else is running one also it's even more super boring. They way they disregard firing arcs and can move however they please is tolerable every once and a while.

Swarm vs. Swarm, BBBB vs. BBBB, etc mirror matchups are exciting. Turret vs. Turret isn't even Turretwing anymore, it's just dicewing.

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Hilariously enough I got wrecked at regionals by not fighting enough fat turret lists. Pack a couple of hlcs and just roll slow at range 3 and turrets and arc dodgers be damned. Rexler + Firespray makes fat turrets look like idiots, but can't survive bbbbz. I think that there are many viable lists, but people don't want to take a risk. Many of the people in this thread have said that they don't want to play turrets but also aren't willing to not play a fat turret list in a regionals because they want to play a viable list, which shows the whole 'self fulfilling prophecy' thing in full effect. It's a cycle of 'what should I take to regionals? Oh look, fat turrets won regionals, I'll take a fat turret'.

Also anyone saying turrets are OP because they won worlds is really grasping at straws, that was a wave and several big impact faq changes ago.

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note, I don't support the "crutch" theory, I just think primary turrets have no place in this game

It is something you are either going to have to learn to accept or move on to another game, then. Turret primaries have existed since near the beginning. They are not going anywhere.

Of course they are here to stay. The only change that has to occur is people need to bring other builds like Swarm or control that can beat the turrets. The only change. You guys who hate turrets, aka all your eggs in one basket ships, should petition people to bring other ships or bring a different build and as Fantasy Flight says, "have fun." Edited by ishikabe

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I'd say turrets are perhaps a little bit too well off in the current metagame, but I'm not sure a rules change is merited. Wave 7 may bring a few new builds (It doesn't look like wave 7 is going to bring anything to turrets, but it might give a few builds what they need to compete), and unless Palpatine is bonkers, the Raider won't bring anything huge (Vader is less defense minded than Fel, which I don't think is what RAC wants) to turrets, but it should give Imperial Aces and 4-ship builds new life.

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I think there are two different things.  There is tournament play and non-tournament play.  They are the same game, except that one has a time limit and how many points you lose affects your standing in the overall tournament.  This greatly impacts tournament play, but doesn't do anything for casual play. 

 

Swarms suffer inherently in tournament play as they take longer to move and that you will always lose some points.  That puts it at a distinct disadvantage in tournament play.

 

Big, Turreted ships have an inherent advantage in that they don't give up any points unless they are all dead.  This helps them in timed matches and with not losing as many points.  I think big, turreted ships are finely costed and are not OP.  I think they can be defeated.  I also think that they give players an advantage in a tournament setting.  If you don't lose that last hull point, you give up no points.  It's in the system that big, turreted ships have an advantage in tournament play.  It's true.  That's why good players play them in tournaments and that's why they win tournaments. 

 

I think if they gave half points (rounded down) for any big based ship at tournaments, it would fix the situation.  Total up hull and shield and if you lose below half of that (rounded down), you lose half (rounded down) of the total points of that ship.  All numbers are on your sheets and it's not that complicated do divide a number in half.  It's not going to over complicate the tournament scene.  It will see a reduction in big, turreted ships as they will lose their advantage.  It won't see an end to big, turreted ships, either.  It will bring balance back to tournament lists, though. 

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a.) I ******* hate primary turrets, I would never touch one let alone own one

b.) we got people already winning regionals with fatties with or without my contribution :P

a) If you have never tried using them, then how can you have a fully formed opinion about how easy they are to use?

b) Turrets have won, but they have also lost. If you truly thing that a fat turret is a one way ticket to a victory, then invest the $30, win, and profit from the store credit while also proving your detractors wrong.

 

I think if they gave half points (rounded down) for any big based ship at tournaments, it would fix the situation. 

Hm. A lot of people have tried to figure out the partial points dilema, but limiting it to only large ships makes it more interesting. But, what about Lambda Shuttles? Do they deserve the partial points de-buff? Hard to say. Edited by Rapture

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I have used fat turrets

 

How could I hate them if I haven't tried them :P?

 

but then I sold them

 

(again, never argued that they were a crutch--imo that takes focus away from the real problem which is just the rule itself and how it defeats the purpose of the game. The crutch guy was another tie advance)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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If you can block a big ship, you can kill it.  They are very predictable most of the time.  The problem that I find is that they can run away too easily and it's hard to get the full kill in the time limit.  They just are harder to kill in a timed match than other ships and they get an advantage.  The results speak for themselves. 

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I ran Soontir, Turd, and Echo in anticipation of Turrets yesterday. I won the match I had against the turret list. But as others have said that list is unforgiving if a mistake is made. I flew to beat turrets, not swarms. I got blocked on the next three games and lost each due to loosing Soontir early. I think I would have changed my tactics had I known there would be swarms as well but when I went in I saw 5 turret lists 2 swarm lists and a couple rebel Hwk,x,x lists.

 

My point is turrets are beatable. Is it easy no but it can be done. Mistakes will kill you with the autoceptor list. For example don't pull a 4k turn with Echo unless you know you are 1v1 and can kill the ship you face. that Stress that causes you to loose the ability to recloak is deadly. Or do not run Soontir head on into the flank of a hwk with Ion turret. Jan Ion Soontir, next round Soontir fly 1 straight, Luke pull 4 k turn putting Luke range 1 of Fel, Jan has wingman card, removes stress from Luke, Jan adds 1 attack Die to Luke, Luke has 5 Attack, rolls 5 hits, Soontir rolls 1 evade and 2 blanks, uses 1 evade token, Soontir Die.

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Autothrusters are OP if anything (and won't ever see play by me as I haven't bought a Butterfly). Turrets are great, in fact they don't go far enough as both the Decimator and the Falcon should be able to fire twice! (with the appropriate number of gunners of course).

 

In casual games I rarely play a turret ship, when I do it functions adequately and shuts down arc dodgers, as it should. Nothing is more boring than watching people move after you do, then boost and barrel roll and convince themselves what great pilots they are LOL Turrets end that silliness, and encourage players to play fair and not just turn up with arc dodgers. Do we really want a meta where Soontir and phantoms fly about unopposed... *Yawn*.

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i am not as skilled as many of you who have won big tournaments in this game, so i wont pretend to understand your level of play.  You're very likely miles ahead of me in game play and ability, and i have no problems admitting that.

 

And i think that might be where the disconnect is.  I have noticed that almost everyone saying that turrets are no big deal have also at one point or another spoken about winning this or that, or top 8 in this big tournament.  Maybe they aren't hard to beat because you're that much better than the average player, so its much easier for you and comes across as not a problem.

 

However, game balance, to my limited knowledge, should always balance to the average player.  if turrets are stripping the fun out of the game, or damaging its tournament results in terms of participation and game balance, then they should look at it.

 

If i can draw the comparison, think of Jace: The Mind Sculptor from magic the gathering.  He was banned from standard tournament play because a combination of cards became present that made the game unfun.  For those that know, this was known as Caw-Blade and it was a terrible time to play magic in standard, not because of the tactics involved, but because EVERY deck you ran into was Caw-Blade.  Sure there were outliers, like Birthing Pod, and some super aggressive builds, but in the end, it was Caw-Blade that consistently won.  if you want to go back a bit, you could point to affinity in the mirroden block and get the same outcome.  you can fast forward and point to affinity again in modern.

 

Now, I'm not and cant draw a direct conclusion to magic the gathering because the games aren't the same, however, there is one universal rule here i cant help be believe is in effect.  Game designers should not rely on gamers to balance their game. A gamers job is to break the game open and give himself the most effective chance at winning.  a game designers job is to balance that and prevent that from happening.

 

Now, i understand for the strongest players amongst us, that top 15 or 10% maybe playing turrets isn't a big deal, but tournament results don't lie, and since wave 2 from what i have read, and even further to the point is that if something is winning and is played at such a high percentage of all of these events, it seems to me that it would be better to deal with it and force the game to change than to just allow the same thing to continue happening.

 

I don't know, I'm not a game designer, but tournament results for several years running don't lie.

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In casual games I rarely play a turret ship, when I do it functions adequately and shuts down arc dodgers, as it should. Nothing is more boring than watching people move after you do, then boost and barrel roll and convince themselves what great pilots they are LOL Turrets end that silliness, and encourage players to play fair and not just turn up with arc dodgers. Do we really want a meta where Soontir and phantoms fly about unopposed... *Yawn*.

 

**** you just described the horrid nature of Fat Han better than I ever could :o

 

only turrets don't beat him at all :P

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