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Fat Turrets, Swarm, and Tournament Results

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So to take this back toward the original topic- what does an optimized TIE Swarm look like in the present meta?

 

I have two regionals coming up and as an Imperial player, I am determined not to run a Chirpy/Arc Dodger list.  

 

If you were to design a TIE Swarm for the present meta, what would it be? 

 

I'm currently flying:

 

Howlrunner, Hull

Black, Draw Their Fire

4 Obsidian Squadron

1 Academy Squadron

 

My thinking is, although I may not have a high probability of victory against Super Dash/Corran, I should have a fair shot against other swarms, BBBBZ, Panic Attack/Control, Fat Falcon, and Decimators.  Thoughts?

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So to take this back toward the original topic- what does an optimized TIE Swarm look like in the present meta?

 

I have two regionals coming up and as an Imperial player, I am determined not to run a Chirpy/Arc Dodger list.  

 

If you were to design a TIE Swarm for the present meta, what would it be? 

 

I'm currently flying:

 

Howlrunner, Hull

Black, Draw Their Fire

4 Obsidian Squadron

1 Academy Squadron

 

My thinking is, although I may not have a high probability of victory against Super Dash/Corran, I should have a fair shot against other swarms, BBBBZ, Panic Attack/Control, Fat Falcon, and Decimators.  Thoughts?

 

I think that Obsidians as the backbone are key if you're running a TIE Swarm these days.  Predator, especially in combination with HLC or many of the critical causing abilities we see (Mangler, RAC) mean a TIE can get dropped a round as is, but if they're academies, it's very likely.  The other thing is that block formation flying the swarm is probably dead since it makes them predictable and more easily able to be arc dodged.

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eh, primary weapon turrets are beatable. Even as someone who hates them, I'll be the first to admit it

 

you want a challenge, though? try making them enjoyable to play against <_<

 

bonus points for doing it without the aid of alcohol or similar substances

 

I have played against Double Falcons in their heyday with Wave 2. I still don't understand what the big issue is? What makes them not fun to play against? The game is FUN. Period. Sure, it can be boring seeing the same thing over and over again, but if you aren't having fun, the issue may just be you. 

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Para and catachan I'm glad I'm not playing the same game as you guys. Turrets aren't broken, they aren't overpowered they are very accurate for what they cost. I never claimed to be a genius or have all the answers. I don't see the point in complaining about top tier ships. In a competitive setting there will always be better things. So you can do a couple things.

1. Join them, nothing wrong with running top tier lists in a tournament.

2. Keep working to change the meta, this is not an easy path and isn't for the faint of heart. But I refuse to believe that they are unbeatable. Like we all said we've all beaten them before.

3. Complain and keep competing. At this point you're just a donor. You're donating your money to the store and not even having a good time.

4. Quit the game. Self explanatory.

I'm not a big fan of complaining. I think there are always opportunities out there. Look I can understand that we all want our investments to all be equally as good but that's not how it works in the real world. My favorite ship is the hwk 290 I loved the dark forces games and to see it in the game the way it plays as opposed to how it works in my head is disappointing. But such is life.

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1. Join them, nothing wrong with running top tier lists in a tournament.

2. Keep working to change the meta, this is not an easy path and isn't for the faint of heart. But I refuse to believe that they are unbeatable. Like we all said we've all beaten them before.

3. Complain and keep competing. At this point you're just a donor. You're donating your money to the store and not even having a good time.

4. Quit the game. Self explanatory.

This!

The problem with any competitive game is that the meta is dominated by those afraid to run something that can lose. One list wins something and it multiplies like a Catholic rabbit. Play every tournament like you'd play your best friend at home, drinking a beer. Your strange squad that you built out because you love Dark Forces or have a crazy obsession with Prince "Falleen Dion" Xizor, might lose nine out of ten times, but when you learn to build a better squad suited to your style, that's when you're an "elite" player. You make the game better for yourself and others.

Edited by VictoryLeo

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Keep in mind, the meta needs time to adapt. We didn't exactly have a lot of time to adjust before the Phantom nerf, and people have been comfortable with Turrets as they are for a long time. Sometimes, you need time to adjust to the new paradigm. To actually practice new squads. The fact Xizor has been showing up in the Top 8 should at least be encouraging. 

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

 

I think turrets are beatable, soontir and carnor with auto thrusters, stealth devices and PTL can do the job.  i know, i have done it, (although that doesnt account for pilot ability, and i am by no means a wonderful player).  I also think they are TOO good for their typical associated value.

 

More interestingly, i think the Heavy laster cannon upgrade and C3PO are also as much to blame as turrets are.  Im not sure a 360 field of fire is the only thing that makes those lists crazy good.  Just my observation.

 

as it stands, they are what they are. I haven't been here or posted for a while because i decided to see if i could figure a few things out on my own and fly casual with a crowd of newer players and re-discover the game as it were away from the influence of competitive play.

 

Someone said it earlier, there is nothing wrong with playing top tier lists, but several friends and i have been flying casual, with no more than 7 points in upgrades per ship, no more than 50 points on a single model, that kind of thing, and i have to tell you, this game is just as much fun playing Corran Horn + Outrider competitively as it is playing Boba Fett with a couple of Z95's and a star viper with little/no upgrades vs others doing the same.  when Han isnt auto-evading 2 hits a turn and rebuilding shields, plus boosting his way across the field, the game is suprisingly fun.

 

but if you want to play competitively, you can't really complain about people playing the top tier stuff.  Game balance is (I would imagine) a very hard thing to do, and there will always be a "best".

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Para and catachan I'm glad I'm not playing the same game as you guys. Turrets aren't broken, they aren't overpowered they are very accurate for what they cost. I never claimed to be a genius or have all the answers. I don't see the point in complaining about top tier ships. In a competitive setting there will always be better things. So you can do a couple things.

1. Join them, nothing wrong with running top tier lists in a tournament.

2. Keep working to change the meta, this is not an easy path and isn't for the faint of heart. But I refuse to believe that they are unbeatable. Like we all said we've all beaten them before.

3. Complain and keep competing. At this point you're just a donor. You're donating your money to the store and not even having a good time.

4. Quit the game. Self explanatory.

I'm not a big fan of complaining. I think there are always opportunities out there. Look I can understand that we all want our investments to all be equally as good but that's not how it works in the real world. My favorite ship is the hwk 290 I loved the dark forces games and to see it in the game the way it plays as opposed to how it works in my head is disappointing. But such is life.

Broken? No. Overpowered yes.

You cannot deny the data.

I played Chewbo all through SC season and made top 8 twice.

But i don`t WANT to have to play the same list over and over again. It creates for a boring game.

Edited by Captain_Arrr

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.

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Para and catachan I'm glad I'm not playing the same game as you guys. Turrets aren't broken, they aren't overpowered they are very accurate for what they cost. I never claimed to be a genius or have all the answers. I don't see the point in complaining about top tier ships. In a competitive setting there will always be better things. So you can do a couple things.

1. Join them, nothing wrong with running top tier lists in a tournament.

2. Keep working to change the meta, this is not an easy path and isn't for the faint of heart. But I refuse to believe that they are unbeatable. Like we all said we've all beaten them before.

3. Complain and keep competing. At this point you're just a donor. You're donating your money to the store and not even having a good time.

4. Quit the game. Self explanatory.

I'm not a big fan of complaining. I think there are always opportunities out there. Look I can understand that we all want our investments to all be equally as good but that's not how it works in the real world. My favorite ship is the hwk 290 I loved the dark forces games and to see it in the game the way it plays as opposed to how it works in my head is disappointing. But such is life.

 

It's not so much that these things are overpowered, it's that the overpowered things are the ones that are also easier to fly and ignore things that made me want to play this game in the first place.

 

Choosing your dials and being locked into your ship ending up in one place, having to maneuver in such a way that cleared stress/didn't give you stress and that took into account asteroids, range modifiers, having to get something in arc, having to choose between arc dodging and having a shot, having to choose between barrel rolling your TIE Fighter and just focusing, not being able to equip an HLC as a ******* turret, etc.

 

Super Dash ignores all of these, and that's why I complain. They are albeit futile and endless complaints I agree lol, but I they're still valid.

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.

 

 

Sure, if you don't want turret primaries to be viable. Which, I imagine many want. 

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.

 

 

Sure, if you don't want turret primaries to be viable. Which, I imagine many want. 

 

What's not to want about it? Parity? Being able to play regular ships again? Or was it a sales ploy to get folks to buy them in the first place, which smacks of GW salesmanship. Release OP model -- reap huge sales bump -- depricate OP model -- make new OP model --> repeat cycle. 

 

If it takes making the large based turret ships not viable to bring the focus back to small based ship dogfighting then so be it.

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.

 

Sure, if you don't want turret primaries to be viable. Which, I imagine many want.

What's not to want about it? Parity? Being able to play regular ships again? Or was it a sales ploy to get folks to buy them in the first place, which smacks of GW salesmanship. Release OP model -- reap huge sales bump -- depricate OP model -- make new OP model --> repeat cycle. 

 

If it takes making the large based turret ships not viable to bring the focus back to small based ship dogfighting then so be it.

Haters gonna hate lol. But seriously could you imagine if a turret had to reduce its dice by 1 and had to hit an auto thruster fel? Imagine if it was an ors throwing just 1 die. They'd have to make Han 28 points to make it even considerable.

There's just no pleasing some people lol. Instead of adapting to the rules and the meta game you want the meta game and rules to adapt to your preferences. We are talking about tournaments and are in regional and gencon season so it's decently high level. You're going to see a lot of the samelists. If you don't like that then you either need to stop going or just come to terms with it.

Before going to a tournament I ask myself what do I want to do. I either want to try and win or I want to just hang out and fly a goofy squad and most likely chill at the fun tables. When my answer is win I know I gotta either bring a power list or come up with one and be ready for top tier lists. I have 0 problems facing the same list 7 times in a row. That's just how tournaments can be sometimes. If I just wanna hang out and chill the day playing x wing then I stop caring about my results. I still play hard and try to win but I don't care about my dice rolls and don't care if I get any prizes or not. I just fly what ever and have fun the entire day. I do both styles but definitely more competitive than goof off days.

You need to pick a side when it comes to tournaments. Don't be wishy washy about it. If you want to win then you need to swallow some hard truths.

1. You are going to go against many top tier lists and maybe play the same list multiple times.

2. Some lists are better than others on paper.

3. Matchups are a thing, sucks when ya get a bad one but suck it up and try to win.

4. The list you thought of may not be that good or may not have been flown to its potential, keep practicing and tooling with it.

Yeah it sucks when you're favorite ship isn't the best. I feel bad for all the defender fans. There ship technically should be the best if we were following the games logic. But the reality is sometimes your favorite ship isn't the best. So either keep using it and suck it up, find a way to fit it in a list to make work, or change it out for something better. That's just what you have to do at tournaments.

Also as far as people talking about autolosses, that's complete BS. Remember at world's last year Richard Hsu beat whisper and a mini swarm with some x's and z's and some unconventional tactics. On paper he should have lost that match but he was able to pull off the win.

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Or perhaps the answer is simpler than any of this: fly better.

The problem with this approach is that, regardless of whether it is correct, you can always say it.

No matter how many times I try, and fail, to walk through a brick wall, you can sit back and speculate, "Maybe it would work if I did it better?" And I could never prove you wrong.

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Honestly sometimes its better for your mental health to simply ignore how other people do things.  

 

I prefer the home game with some friends I know who will take the effort to ensure we all have a good time.  

 

I think its a good compromise for admitting I'm not good enough to beat the fat turrets consistently without doing the same, and for admitting I don't think that game is fun.  

Sadly, people.  

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If you were to design a TIE Swarm for the present meta, what would it be?

The last big tournament at my local store had someone lose almost no ships with his 7 swarm. At its heart were

Howlrunner

Black Squadron + Draw Their Fire

Black Squadron + Draw Their Fire

I vaguely recall that the other 4 were Academy Pilots, and Howl had an upgrade.

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Fat turrets were utterly broken people who claimed they weren't were obviously wrong. Tournament results show us that easily.

It is annoying as heck that fat Falcons have been dominating major tournaments since wave 4.

All wave 5 brought was the imperial version of a fat turret with whisper

Then wave 6 came and all the ffg apologist said auto thrusters was going to kill turrets.

No it didn't. It made 1 ship (interceptor) viable again.

And instead of scaring turrets all it did was make the imperial fat turret stronger with chin/fel combo.

However as much as I hated fat Falcons and I've been complaining about it when c3p0 and Zs first previewed as the most broken combo in this game ever. Fat Falcons are not as dominating as they once were still one of the best lists along with chin/fel but not utterly broken.

The only way to kill fat turrets is going to be a big power creep. Fortunately the advanced fix is going to do just that and kill fat falcon builds and likely chin/fel as well.

So really a nerf isn't needed on turrets anymore or basically that time has passed. That should have happened a year ago.

Now back to the op.

Swarms haven't been effective since wave 4. The lie purported as 7 tie swarms being the fat turret killers hasn't been a reality since Han shoots first was for created. Once c3p0 dropped the survivability of fat Falcons surpassed that of 6-7 ship builds that easily loses a ship a turn. Right now the closest thing to a competitive swarm is BBBBZ. It's a 5 ship build and plays much like a swarm but has the lasting survivability to play with the big boys.

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.

 

 

Sure, if you don't want turret primaries to be viable. Which, I imagine many want. 

 

What's not to want about it? Parity? Being able to play regular ships again? Or was it a sales ploy to get folks to buy them in the first place, which smacks of GW salesmanship. Release OP model -- reap huge sales bump -- depricate OP model -- make new OP model --> repeat cycle. 

 

If it takes making the large based turret ships not viable to bring the focus back to small based ship dogfighting then so be it.

 

Won a Store Championship with a Interceptor, Defender, 2 Bomber list; Made top 8 at the Regionals with 3 Interceptors list; made Top 2 with a 3 Starviper+1 Z list... Met a LOT of turrets and never had a problem with them. They are not OP and you can still win and have fun without them. 

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It's not that everything top tier is a samelist, it's that the top tier samelists are all boring crap that strip all the nuance from this otherwise elegant game.

Please tell me the nuance they strip from the game? Please don't give a ludicrous reply like they don't care about actions! Or they don't even have to plan maneuvers! High level players at high level play have a ton of planning to do.

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.

 

Sure, if you don't want turret primaries to be viable. Which, I imagine many want.

What's not to want about it? Parity? Being able to play regular ships again? Or was it a sales ploy to get folks to buy them in the first place, which smacks of GW salesmanship. Release OP model -- reap huge sales bump -- depricate OP model -- make new OP model --> repeat cycle. 

 

If it takes making the large based turret ships not viable to bring the focus back to small based ship dogfighting then so be it.

This would just create Soontir-Wing. It would be far worse.

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.
 

Sure, if you don't want turret primaries to be viable. Which, I imagine many want.

What's not to want about it? Parity? Being able to play regular ships again? Or was it a sales ploy to get folks to buy them in the first place, which smacks of GW salesmanship. Release OP model -- reap huge sales bump -- depricate OP model -- make new OP model --> repeat cycle. 

 

If it takes making the large based turret ships not viable to bring the focus back to small based ship dogfighting then so be it.

This would just create Soontir-Wing. It would be far worse.

Eh, Soontir can be dealt with. Half the time his most viable move is green hard 2. Even if he is invincible he's only throwing a single 3 dice attack that doesn't stack gunner and fcs or predator, so he's not as game breaking as Whisper is/was.

A meta dominated by Soontir and 5 Obsidians? I'll take that any day over Turretwing.

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I always wondered if you could make a rule that ships firing outside of their firing arc would get one less red die to balance out the turret abilities.  that way turrets aren't as powerful going into every matchup and might balance them a little bit.  Maybe it would nerf them too much, i dont know, im not a game designer, but i have wondered.

This would solve the problem overnight.
 

Sure, if you don't want turret primaries to be viable. Which, I imagine many want.

What's not to want about it? Parity? Being able to play regular ships again? Or was it a sales ploy to get folks to buy them in the first place, which smacks of GW salesmanship. Release OP model -- reap huge sales bump -- depricate OP model -- make new OP model --> repeat cycle. 

 

If it takes making the large based turret ships not viable to bring the focus back to small based ship dogfighting then so be it.

This would just create Soontir-Wing. It would be far worse.

Eh, Soontir can be dealt with. Half the time his most viable move is green hard 2. Even if he is invincible he's only throwing a single 3 dice attack that doesn't stack gunner and fcs or predator, so he's not as game breaking as Whisper is/was.

A meta dominated by Soontir and 5 Obsidians? I'll take that any day over Turretwing.

But then what would you do if you kept losing to Soontir? You'd just find another thing to complain about being broken. B-wings can take FCS which let's them always have a focus target lock and have a ton of hp to chew threw. Will that be broken since they have great action economy? Do you honestly think if turrets were gone you'd win more?

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Dear god turrets are not unbeatable. Are they hard? Yeah but they're paying for over half there list and they don't throw as many red dice. Para you do NOT have to chase them, that is what they want you to do if you don't have auto thrusters. Hell stay back in the corner and don't go anywhere until he comes to you then as soon as he starts to go towards his board edge break off and head back to your corner.

You guys honestly just sound like you've given up and are defeated. Stop sitting on the forums complaining about these results you see. You're all waiting for the next list that can beat turrets so you all can start playing it and get your wins. Make that list, make that strategy. It's out there. Be the person who finds it.

Exactly. Also i do believe that it is prerty hard for swarms to beat Arc dodging turrets. For Tie Swarms that is, and only if the turret list knows **** well what it does.

If we consider BBBBZ a swarm that's a different story. It's feasible forthe turret list but the smallest mistake and you take 10+ damage per turn, or your escort ship just goes poof!

Also IGs can beat turret lists no problem. Just try advanced sensors and autothrusters on them... i beat turret lists pretty reliably with that even if they have higher PS. Dash/Corran is the hardest enemy for them as far as turrets go.

The Phantom nerf has shifted the meta a bit towards Autothruster capable ships. But no one is going to play the real hard counter to turrets which would be 3 Autoceptors. Because they are still really vulnerable to other lists and to bad luck. So instead we see a mix of turrets and Arc-Dodgers.

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But then what would you do if you kept losing to Soontir?

You are being overly dismissive. Complaints against the proliferation of turrets, specifically fat turrets, are legitimate. They represent a very small portion of available ships yet they are so common that players are obviously confident that fat turrets present them with the best chance for a strong performance.

The idea that the majority of people playing fat turrets are sheeple who saw some guy win one time a year ago and have been copying that list ever since is stupid. Most of the people who play X-Wing put a considerable amount of time into building lists. I agonized over what I was going to fly at regionals. I ended up with 5 options that I thought were viable. My final cut brought it down to two - one with Dash and one with Han (both had an engine upgrade). The fat turrets gave me the best chance for a win. I knew this not because I have seen one win before, but because I have experience matching them against other lists. So, I defaulted to turrets and hoped not to get paired against a 4B list.

Right now, fat turrets are an issue. What is popular typically changes, but they are not just popular, they are an obvious choice.

Edited by Rapture

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