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Darnok2

Random Lists Tournament - An Idea

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After reading quite a lot about "competetive" lists, "not viable ships" and tournaments in general, I had the following idea: what if a TO would make the players use certain pre-set lists? It would basically go like this:

 

  1. The TO decides on a couple of 100 points lists. These will make the "Pool". The lists in the Pool are made available before the tournament.
  2. Players will need to bring the ships and cards to be able to play any list from the Pool to play in the tournament.
  3. Before each game, players choose one of the lists from the Pool randomly. The game is then played as usual.

 

Of course this needs to be handled with care, as the lists in the Pool can not be too extreme (otherwise it would prohibit a lot of people from entering the tournament), and the Pool can not contain too many different lists (same reason actually). On the other hand: most people playing at tournament level have a sizable collection. And designing the lists from the Pool could incorporate a few more "less than optimal" ships and cards, providing interesting matchups.

 

Without having this ironed out: what are peoples opinions on this? I'm not that familiar with the X-Wing scene as a whole - maybe there are already similar ideas in action? Any experiences with this? Suggestions?

Edited by Darnok

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There was a similar thread a couple of days ago, and it's an idea that comes up every once in a while. My answer hasn't changed since the last thread:

...list-building is part of the game and it's a huge part of my enjoyment. I wouldn't be interested in a tournament format that takes that away from me.

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I started the thread. People who live for store championships and going to regionals didn't like the idea. Those out for fun seemed to like it or have suggestions for a similar format. It was even suggested that everyone's lists be taken, put into a hat and drawn at random. That way Vorpal gets to build his list he just might not get to use it. ;)

Don't give up on the idea many players out there are tired of the 80% Fat Turret lists for competitions and the mind numbing lack of originality or diversity among tournament lists. In fact here in the Bay Area we've already lined up a store to host our tournament idea.

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I see far too many problems with rule #2.  It basically says "bring your collection and then wait to see what you actually need."  There is also that wonderful issue of what is extreme when it comes to lists.  Your "basic" TIE Swarm is impossible for most players to manage on their own without massive collections.  You also run into 'common' upgrades that may not be so accessible to everyone; normally someone could avoid them but if you have to play a specific list that means you'd need them.  Who wants to run out a buy a Corvette so they have C-3PO to run in a list?

 

Now MAYBE you could run it if you created your pool of squadrons and then allowed the player to pick the squadron from the list that they wanted to use.  Of course the problem with that is simply that everyone might try bringing the same list which means they need to be balanced even if that balance is a game of RockPaperLizardScissorsSpock.  At least this way a person could prepare the list they have and would like to play most.

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i wondered about a highlander event, where everything can only be taken once.

 

Let me clarify everything:

 

Only one of any type of ship, like 1 tie fighter, 1 interceptor, 1 yt1300, 1 ig88 that kind of thing.

then, all of the upgrades are highlander. for example, you entire list could only include one weapon upgrade, one sensor upgrade, one crew upgrade, one modification, one title, ect ect...

 

I'm not sure it would do anything to shake up the current meta, but i think it would really make people think where they put their, or if they use veteran instincts or C3PO...

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I see far too many problems with rule #2.  It basically says "bring your collection and then wait to see what you actually need."  There is also that wonderful issue of what is extreme when it comes to lists.  Your "basic" TIE Swarm is impossible for most players to manage on their own without massive collections.  You also run into 'common' upgrades that may not be so accessible to everyone; normally someone could avoid them but if you have to play a specific list that means you'd need them.  Who wants to run out a buy a Corvette so they have C-3PO to run in a list?

 

Indeed, that would be a thing for the TO to get right. He could not put big swarm lists into the Pool, same for hard-to-get upgrades. 

 

But then, the lists are made available before the tournament starts, so all players only need to bring the ships for the lists actually in the Pool - if there is no Slave I in any of the lists, you don't have to bring a Slave I model, for example.

 

I don't think it is without challenges for both sides - especially getting the lists for the Pool "right" could be tricky. It's also not for everyone - yes, you need a bit of a collection to even participate in an event like this. But with some thought put into it I think it could provide an interesting option, instead of the same old stuff everybody else does.

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Assuming everything is 'in stock' there are no "hard to get" upgrades; only upgrades that would require purchasing ships you don't already have, may not want, or can't even afford.

 

I would really pity the TO who has to construct a list of possible squadrons to use that is varied while still being balanced yet uses only the components the people would want to attend have.  It may be possible but I believe the chance for success is low so I don't see it happening.  Now I do think it would be possible to build a pool of varied yet balanced squadrons where everyone is likely to be able to build at least one squadron in it.  This can get you those "different" options used and it also make the player prep more interesting as you really get to look at the metagame aspect of things.

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Most web based list builders have a RANDOM SQUAD GENERATOR type function.  You plug in your collection and hit RANDOM SQUAD to see what you get.  After I finish practicing for Regionals, I want to play a few games like that with the guys on game night.  I think it would be a real hoot. 

 

Now, I like the idea of a fun tournament like that or like your idea.  I think it's impossible to have everyone have all the minis.  Maybe everyone submit a list idea, with TO rejection possible, and then you bring that list.   You just might not get to fly it.  It would be fun.  I can see some issues with the off chance that someone breaks a model.  That would suck.  Overall, though, I think that a lot of people would have a good time.

 

I've also thought about a tournament that flat out banned big, turreted ships, Phantoms, and Soontir Fel.  Maybe even bro bots if you want some real variety.  No money or anything.   Just for fun.

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I started the thread. People who live for store championships and going to regionals didn't like the idea. Those out for fun seemed to like it or have suggestions for a similar format. It was even suggested that everyone's lists be taken, put into a hat and drawn at random. That way Vorpal gets to build his list he just might not get to use it. ;)

Don't give up on the idea many players out there are tired of the 80% Fat Turret lists for competitions and the mind numbing lack of originality or diversity among tournament lists. In fact here in the Bay Area we've already lined up a store to host our tournament idea.

That's kind of a rude summation. I think it's pretty small minded to assume because people either enjoy list building or going to store championships/regionals that they don't play for fun as well. Just because that sort of tournament seems fun to you doesn't mean that if other people disagree they aren't looking to fly for fun.

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I'd rather improve my list building/selection skills than drag the rest of the competition down by making them play sub-par lists. 

 

I don't understand why people hate the idea of a socialist economy but love socialism in gaming. "Screw social safety nets, let's punish competitive innovation in our games instead!".

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someone said it before, but no money and random prizes is DEFINETELY the way to go, and i totally love the idea of a 100 point random list build using one of the online list creators.  that way people can sign in, hit random, and print the list, and thats whay they get.

 

sounds pretty good to me.

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I have an idea for something similar that we can hopefully do after the regionals.

My idea is to have a four round tournament where in round 2 and 4 you swap your list with your oponent. This way you get to play something different but still have to put together a reasonable list because you'll be playing it for two rounds. Ship ownership is not an issue because you'll just use your oponent's ships.

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I'd rather improve my list building/selection skills than drag the rest of the competition down by making them play sub-par lists. 

 

I don't understand why people hate the idea of a socialist economy but love socialism in gaming. "Screw social safety nets, let's punish competitive innovation in our games instead!".

I wouldn't call checking regional/national/world champs lists and copying them "list building". I doesn't require an original thought of any kind to do that. I'm not suggesting that that is what you do personally (I don't know you) but let's be honest about it. Most of the serious and competitive players at the regional level and higher don't list build. They find the proven formula and use it.

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I started the thread. People who live for store championships and going to regionals didn't like the idea. Those out for fun seemed to like it or have suggestions for a similar format. It was even suggested that everyone's lists be taken, put into a hat and drawn at random. That way Vorpal gets to build his list he just might not get to use it. ;)

Don't give up on the idea many players out there are tired of the 80% Fat Turret lists for competitions and the mind numbing lack of originality or diversity among tournament lists. In fact here in the Bay Area we've already lined up a store to host our tournament idea.

That's kind of a rude summation. I think it's pretty small minded to assume because people either enjoy list building or going to store championships/regionals that they don't play for fun as well. Just because that sort of tournament seems fun to you doesn't mean that if other people disagree they aren't looking to fly for fun.

I meant no offense. I guess it all depends on what you consider fun. If by "fun" you mean they like winning then yes, many of them play for fun. I've been playing long enough to know that the people who will drop a few hundred dollars to play at a regional who are there strictly for the enjoyment of the game are few and far between. Why go to all that trouble for the same type of match they could get at their local store? "You know what sounds fun? Drop $500 and drive several hours to go and play my creative original list that no one uses, then get trounced five or six times and drive home". I'm sure lots of people don't like this idea just because it doesn't appeal to them. Of course that's fine. Almost all the every competition people derive their fun from winning. Maybe those people are completely different outside of competitions but not when they've invested that much n time an resources. They're there to win.

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If you want to list build just be the TO. He builds all the lists. As for the issue of not having the ships when you arrive the TO could publish and distribute a list of all the ships and upgrades that will be used in the tournament. The players may not know in which combinations. The TO could even add a bunch of dummy cards that won't be used to the published master list so that the combinations would be less obvious.

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I started the thread. People who live for store championships and going to regionals didn't like the idea. Those out for fun seemed to like it or have suggestions for a similar format. It was even suggested that everyone's lists be taken, put into a hat and drawn at random. That way Vorpal gets to build his list he just might not get to use it. ;)

Don't give up on the idea many players out there are tired of the 80% Fat Turret lists for competitions and the mind numbing lack of originality or diversity among tournament lists. In fact here in the Bay Area we've already lined up a store to host our tournament idea.

That's kind of a rude summation. I think it's pretty small minded to assume because people either enjoy list building or going to store championships/regionals that they don't play for fun as well. Just because that sort of tournament seems fun to you doesn't mean that if other people disagree they aren't looking to fly for fun.

I meant no offense. I guess it all depends on what you consider fun. If by "fun" you mean they like winning then yes, many of them play for fun. I've been playing long enough to know that the people who will drop a few hundred dollars to play at a regional who are there strictly for the enjoyment of the game are few and far between. Why go to all that trouble for the same type of match they could get at their local store? "You know what sounds fun? Drop $500 and drive several hours to go and play my creative original list that no one uses, then get trounced five or six times and drive home". I'm sure lots of people don't like this idea just because it doesn't appeal to them. Of course that's fine. Almost all the every competition people derive their fun from winning. Maybe those people are completely different outside of competitions but not when they've invested that much n time an resources. They're there to win.

I'm just wondering: are you speaking from experience here, or speculating? My experience at both SC and Regionals this year has been that a minority of people bring netlists.

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I'm speaking from both. Perhaps we are defining things differnetly? I consider a something that's 90% net list still a net list. I'm not suggesting that there are no players in tourneys who play fun creative lists, just that those who have a serious chance a contending rarely do. Check the top 8s from regionals.

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