Interaction between Demolisher and Engine Techs

[JgzMan 401]

This has been rattling around in my head for a bit:

 

Demolisher reads: "During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver."

 

Engine Techs reads: " [Navigate]: After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a speed-1 maneuver."

 

So, give the use of the command dial or token, it seems I can do the following:

 

1) spend my command dial

2) manuver

3) after manuvering, perform one of my attacks

4) after manuvering, exaust Engine Techs

5) manuver

6) after manuvering, perform one of my attacks

 

I can't see anything suggesting this is not permitted. The requirement to exaust Engine Techs suggests that you can certainly perform "after you manuver" abilities after using them, and Demolisher dosn't include any limits other than 1 move = 1 attack.

 

So, if anyone can offer me a reason that this is wrong, I'd love to hear it. Please don't invoke "spirit of the rules" unless you're in a position to influence the next official FAQ document.

 

Thanks, everyone!

[Nagash1959 94]

I don't have my RRG handy, but the "Timing" section should spell out the "During your activation" part would only allow the effects t to occur a single time for the ships activation, but you could choose after the normal move or the Tech move.

EDIT: Ignore this, see my second post for why.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Nagash1959

[JgzMan 401]

I don't have my RRG handy, but the "Timing" section should spell out the "During your activation" part would only allow the effects t to occur a single time for the ships activation, but you could choose after the normal move or the Tech move.

 

The PDF shows no "Timing" section. My reading of "Ships Activation" dosn't say anything that would disalow what I am proposing.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

The Demolisher title is what doesn't allow what you are suggesting.

It allows you to preform 1 of your attacks after executing a maneuver, it doesn't allow you to save both of your attacks for the "Maneuver Phase" even if you could execute multiple maneuvers. The upgrade grants you the ability to specifically save 1 attack for use outside of the normal phase in which they are made.

Edited May 15, 2015 by ScottieATF

[Wildhorn 453]

No you can't do it.

 

Demolisher is "During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver."

 

To be able to do what you want it would need to be: "During your activation, after you execute a maneuver you can perform 1 of your attacks".

 

It is very subtile. 

[JgzMan 401]

The Demolisher title is what doesn't allow what you are suggesting.

It allows you to preform 1 of your attacks after executing a maneuver, it doesn't allow you to save both of your attacks for the "Maneuver Phase" even if you could execute multiple maneuvers. The upgrade grants you the ability to specifically save 1 attack for use outside of the normal phase in which they are made.

 

The words do not support your interpertation. It dosn't mention "phases" except for "Activation." It dosn't say "one attack" except in conjuction with "after a manuver."

 

No you can't do it.

 

Demolisher is "During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver."

 

To be able to do what you want it would need to be: "During your activation, after you execute a maneuver you can perform 1 of your attacks".

 

It is very subtile. 

 

I do not parse a distinction. Can you elaborate?

[Nagash1959 94]

Duh, PDF....third bullet point on the list. Command related abilites can be executed once.



EDIT:   WOW that came across as seriously disrespectful and unhelpful when I did NOT mean that. 

Thanks to ScottieATF for (accurately) calling me out on acting like a piece of Sith.


My statement of "Duh, PDF" was in response to JGZMan bringing up the PDF and me realizing I could just DL it onto my phone and double check what I was trying to say in my original response. That was *not* directed at any forum member other than my own failing brain. If anyone took offence then I apologize. 

That said, I *should* have checked the PDF to begin with as I violated my own rule about trying to re-check the rules whenever I can. The timing issue I was trying to point out *did* have nothing to do with what I was trying to get across, my brain added the navigate token to the Title card. That was entirely wrong. 

So yeah, everything I said in this thread so far has made me look either rude or illiterate, and neither of those should have happened. Sorry for any confusion or disrespect felt by that.

Last time I try and respond after the break bell goes off with a half-thought sentence. 

 

Edited May 15, 2015 by Nagash1959

[ScottieATF 2,867]

The normal rules force you to utilize both of your attacks in the "Attack Phase" or lose them. The Demolisher title allows you to circumvent that by utilizing 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver. The Demolisher title specifically states 1 of your attacks, not both, or not even just a attack. It's granting you the singular attack to be utilized out of the typical phase.

With what you are trying to do you are exceeding the wording of the Demolisher title as you aren't just making 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver. If you make an attack after each of the maneuvers you are no longer just making 1 attack after executing a maneuver but you've made two attacks after executing a maneuver, even though they were two seperate maneuvers.

Edited May 15, 2015 by ScottieATF

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Duh, PDF....third bullet point on the list. Command related abilites can be executed once.

This has nothing to do with the question he is asking. He is not suggesting that any command related ability is being utilized more then once.

So I think your Duh was rather unwarranted since you don't seem to get the question.

Edited May 15, 2015 by ScottieATF

[JgzMan 401]

No you can't do it.

 

Demolisher is "During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver."

 

To be able to do what you want it would need to be: "During your activation, after you execute a maneuver you can perform 1 of your attacks".

 

It is very subtile. 

 

OK, I've been thinking about  this, and I think you've hit it on the head.

 

As written, the trigger is "One of your attacks." The alternate way that Wildhorn offered, the trigger is "executing a manuver." This would, indeed, allow me to do what I was proposing.

 

Subtle indeed.

 

To everyone else: Thanks for the discussion on the topic.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Though, yes, after either your normal maneuver or the Engine Tech one would be a valid spot to make your 1 "after a maneuver attack".

[DWRR 898]

Nevermind.

Edited May 15, 2015 by DWRR

[willismaximus 104]

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/173497-engine-techs-and-demolisher-wave-1-stuff/

Started a thread on this a while back

[MaverickNZ 591]

I read through the original thread and the RRG also and I think there is only one way that this logically plays out but that depends on the argument that if you move and then attack (using demolisher), is using engine techs still then still classed as "after" doing a maneuver, or is it now "after" an attack instead?

 

Edit: From the rules reference guide

Effects with a command icon as a header can be resolved once while the ship is resolving

the matching command

An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

 

 

So the wording "after" means right after using what ever the triggering ability is, and the navigate command means that engine techs must happen in same nagivation command as the ships movement.

 

By chosing to use the demolisher attack you would end the maneuver phase of the ship, so cannot make another move anymore (as the navigate command is done and finished and you can only perform a command once per activation). So if you want to use engine techs then by neccessity it must follow directly on from the ships movement.

 

So the choices would be:

Regular attack (or not)

Regular movement

Either Demolisher attack, OR Engine techs (after movement)

If Engine techs chosen, then Demolisher attack can be used now (After a maneuver - as it specifies on the engine techs card that you are performing a 1 speed maneuver).

 

So yes, you can use both but only if you do engine techs first.

If you do demolisher first then you don't get engine techs after it.

And you cant move attack, move attack for the same reasoning.

Edited May 17, 2015 by MaverickNZ

[Wildhorn 453]

 

Edit: From the rules reference guide

Effects with a command icon as a header can be resolved once while the ship is resolving

the matching command

An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

 

 

So the wording "after" means right after using what ever the triggering ability is, and the navigate command means that engine techs must happen in same nagivation command as the ships movement.

 

 

 

This made me check the RRG and I found that:

Effects with a command icon as a header can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

Navigate: Resolve during the “Determine Course” step of movement.

Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed.

 

 

Which means Engine Techs can't actually resolve at all because its effect can't be resolved during its resolving timing window!

[MaverickNZ 591]

 

 

Edit: From the rules reference guide

Effects with a command icon as a header can be resolved once while the ship is resolving

the matching command

An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

 

 

So the wording "after" means right after using what ever the triggering ability is, and the navigate command means that engine techs must happen in same nagivation command as the ships movement.

 

 

 

This made me check the RRG and I found that:

Effects with a command icon as a header can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

Navigate: Resolve during the “Determine Course” step of movement.

Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed.

 

 

Which means Engine Techs can't actually resolve at all because its effect can't be resolved during its resolving timing window!

 

 

On the Engine techs card, It uses the navigate token (which I agree would normally mean at the same time as plotting your initial maneuver) But, the card specifically follows the icon by saying"After", and the RRG says "after" means "immediately after" doing the specified action, so it means when resolving a maneuver command, after you do the maneuver with the tool you do another 1 speed one straight away. This is what I was saying before about engine techs must be used right after the ships movement, because of the dial being tied to the ships original movement. Demolisher just says "after a maneuver" so can come after Engine Techs.

[Wildhorn 453]

 

 

 

Edit: From the rules reference guide

Effects with a command icon as a header can be resolved once while the ship is resolving

the matching command

An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

 

 

So the wording "after" means right after using what ever the triggering ability is, and the navigate command means that engine techs must happen in same nagivation command as the ships movement.

 

 

 

This made me check the RRG and I found that:

Effects with a command icon as a header can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

Navigate: Resolve during the “Determine Course” step of movement.

Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed.

 

 

Which means Engine Techs can't actually resolve at all because its effect can't be resolved during its resolving timing window!

 

 

On the Engine techs card, It uses the navigate token (which I agree would normally mean at the same time as plotting your initial maneuver) But, the card specifically follows the icon by saying"After", and the RRG says "after" means "immediately after" doing the specified action, so it means when resolving a maneuver command, after you do the maneuver with the tool you do another 1 speed one straight away. This is what I was saying before about engine techs must be used right after the ships movement, because of the dial being tied to the ships original movement. Demolisher just says "after a maneuver" so can come after Engine Techs.

 

There is no such thing as "maneuver command". It is Navigate Command and it resolve during the Determine Course step of Ship Movement. There is no maneuver involved into that step.

[DWRR 898]

I read through the original thread and the RRG also and I think there is only one way that this logically plays out but that depends on the argument that if you move and then attack (using demolisher), is using engine techs still then still classed as "after" doing a maneuver, or is it now "after" an attack instead?

 

Edit: From the rules reference guide

Effects with a command icon as a header can be resolved once while the ship is resolving

the matching command

An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

 

 

So the wording "after" means right after using what ever the triggering ability is, and the navigate command means that engine techs must happen in same nagivation command as the ships movement.

 

By chosing to use the demolisher attack you would end the maneuver phase of the ship, so cannot make another move anymore (as the navigate command is done and finished and you can only perform a command once per activation). So if you want to use engine techs then by neccessity it must follow directly on from the ships movement.

 

So the choices would be:

Regular attack (or not)

Regular movement

Either Demolisher attack, OR Engine techs (after movement)

If Engine techs chosen, then Demolisher attack can be used now (After a maneuver - as it specifies on the engine techs card that you are performing a 1 speed maneuver).

 

So yes, you can use both but only if you do engine techs first.

If you do demolisher first then you don't get engine techs after it.

And you cant move attack, move attack for the same reasoning.

 

Demolisher and Techs both have the same trigger (after a manoeuvre) so techs can be used after Demolisher for a move>shoot>move off a navigate command. Both effects happen at the same time so the active player chooses the order.

Edited May 17, 2015 by DWRR

[MaverickNZ 591]

I disagree, how by shooting in the middle are you still meeting the "immediately" requirement of moving after the first move as required in the definition of "after" by he rules reference guide?

There are lots of abilities in Armada that make you choose one action but not another, if you shoot first then you are not immediately moving after the first move breaking the "after" rule, if you move move first then you may immediately shoot, as you have furfilled the movement condition , it only works one way.

Edited May 17, 2015 by MaverickNZ

[MaverickNZ 591]

I disagree, how by shooting in the middle are you still meeting the "immediately" requirement of moving after the first move as required in the definition of "after" by he rules reference guide?

There are lots of abilities in Armada that make you choose one action but not another, if you shoot first then you are not immediately moving after the first move breaking the "after" rule, if you move move first then you may immediately shoot, as you have furfilled the movement condition , it only works one way.

It's like saying, immediately after getting out the shower you may dry your feet,

Then, you may do the following:

Immediately after drying your feet you can dry your feet again

Immediately after drying your feet you can put socks on.

There is only one order that actually works.

(Apologies for the morning reference, am getting up)

[DWRR 898]

Both effects use the exact same trigger, both happen immediately.

"After you execute a manoeuvre..."

Both happen at the same time, so the active player chooses the order they resolve in.

Edited May 17, 2015 by DWRR

[Aminar 1,949]

If you look in the timing section it says if Two or more of anplayers effects happen at the same time they can be resolved in any order.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

Yep. What they all say. Shoot, move, shoot, move is legit-if you want it to be.

[Aminar 1,949]

Yep. What they all say. Shoot, move, shoot, move is legit-if you want it to be.

As is Shoot, move, move, shoot.

But not move shoot, move shoot.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

Yep. What they all say. Shoot, move, shoot, move is legit-if you want it to be.

As is Shoot, move, move, shoot.

But not move shoot, move shoot.

Unfortunately that seems to be the case.