Winning and Losing at the Same Time

[Darrwood 62]

So, I was imagining this scenario. 

 

If you destroy the last of your opponents ships, the game is over, and you are considered to have Won.  If you look at the tournament scoring sheet, you may still have lost.

 

Imagine this.

 

Rebel player brings 7 CR-90's and Dodona.

 

 Imperial player brings 100 points of squadrons, and 2 victories.

 

During turn 4, 6 of the CR-90's are dead, and one of the victories.  All squadrons are alive.  

 

The during turn 5, the last CR-90 destroys the last Victory.   Per the rule book, the rebel player has won; however, they have only killed 200 points of the imperials, while the imperials killed 260 points of rebels. 

 

Per the rulebook, the rebels won, and the game ends.  Per the tournament manual, the game ends as well, and they rebels are given a victory... worth more points to the imperials?

 

Is this resolved somewhere else?  Or am I missing something?

[Aminar 1,949]

As far as I know this is an ongoing question. Mission Objectives can also spin things in strange ways.

[skyhwk290 94]

So, I was imagining this scenario. 

 

If you destroy the last of your opponents ships, the game is over, and you are considered to have Won.  If you look at the tournament scoring sheet, you may still have lost.

 

Imagine this.

 

Rebel player brings 7 CR-90's and Dodona.

 

 Imperial player brings 100 points of squadrons, and 2 victories.

 

During turn 4, 6 of the CR-90's are dead, and one of the victories.  All squadrons are alive.  

 

The during turn 5, the last CR-90 destroys the last Victory.   Per the rule book, the rebel player has won; however, they have only killed 200 points of the imperials, while the imperials killed 260 points of rebels. 

 

Per the rulebook, the rebels won, and the game ends.  Per the tournament manual, the game ends as well, and they rebels are given a victory... worth more points to the imperials?

 

Is this resolved somewhere else?  Or am I missing something?

I'm confused, is this a 300 point game? VSDs are a minimum 73 points, in your scenario the rebels scored 246 points of stuff not including a commander (at minimum 24 points with motti to make 270 points). It is very unlikely someone would initiative build that low. I see what you mean but the example doesn't display it well, can you clarify it a little more?

[Aminar 1,949]

So, I was imagining this scenario. 

 

If you destroy the last of your opponents ships, the game is over, and you are considered to have Won.  If you look at the tournament scoring sheet, you may still have lost.

 

Imagine this.

 

Rebel player brings 7 CR-90's and Dodona.

 

 Imperial player brings 100 points of squadrons, and 2 victories.

 

During turn 4, 6 of the CR-90's are dead, and one of the victories.  All squadrons are alive.  

 

The during turn 5, the last CR-90 destroys the last Victory.   Per the rule book, the rebel player has won; however, they have only killed 200 points of the imperials, while the imperials killed 260 points of rebels. 

 

Per the rulebook, the rebels won, and the game ends.  Per the tournament manual, the game ends as well, and they rebels are given a victory... worth more points to the imperials?

 

Is this resolved somewhere else?  Or am I missing something?

I'm confused, is this a 300 point game? VSDs are a minimum 73 points, in your scenario the rebels scored 246 points of stuff not including a commander (at minimum 24 points with motti to make 270 points). It is very unlikely someone would initiative build that low. I see what you mean but the example doesn't display it well, can you clarify it a little more?

Why don't we simplify instead.

Each side has 200 points in ships and 100 in fighters.

Team A finishes with one Cr-90 alive and 0 fighters for a total surviving points of 44.

Team B loses all 200 points of ships and 0 fighters for a total survival of 100.

The guy with 44 left standing wins.

The guy with 100 loses.

How does this get scored.

[Darrwood 62]

I didn't fill in the details for the lists, but if it makes it clearer here goes.  Yes, this is a 300 point game, since that is the current tournament standard.  

 

Rebels

7 CR-90 B's

1 Has Dodana.

Total 293, all ships

 

Imperials

5 Tie Bombers

5 Tie Interceptors

2 Victory 1's

Expanded Hanger Bays on Both

Enhanced Armament on Both

Amatti

 

100 Points of Squadrons

200 Points of Ships

 

Total 300 points

 

If the 2 Victories Die the Rebels get 200 points even.

 

If 6 of the CR-90's and Dodana die, the imperials get 254 points.  

Edited May 14, 2015 by Darrwood

[skyhwk290 94]

So as far as casual play goes the below is read as an absolute, points are not factored in.

"If all ships in a fleet are destroyed, ignoring squadrons, the game immediately ends. The player with one or more ships remaining in the play area is the winner."

If you have the last Ship(s) standing, you win no counting that's it.

Tournament play isn't that different, under the section for calculating MoV.

"If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships and squadrons, the destroyed fleet is worth 180 points, even if the opponent’s fleet is comprised of components worth fewer than 180 points."

So the winner would get a MoV of 180 and since the scores are based off the winning player the opposition gets Zero. At least that is my interpretation. While yes the situation is (highly unlikely but) possible it doesn't matter.

[Darrwood 62]

So as far as casual play goes the below is read as an absolute, points are not factored in.

"If all ships in a fleet are destroyed, ignoring squadrons, the game immediately ends. The player with one or more ships remaining in the play area is the winner."

If you have the last Ship(s) standing, you win no counting that's it.

Tournament play isn't that different, under the section for calculating MoV.

"If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships and squadrons, the destroyed fleet is worth 180 points, even if the opponent’s fleet is comprised of components worth fewer than 180 points."

So the winner would get a MoV of 180 and since the scores are based off the winning player the opposition gets Zero. At least that is my interpretation. While yes the situation is (highly unlikely but) possible it doesn't matter.

 

 

In this case the rebel player did NOT destroy all of their opponents ships and squadrons, only ships.  Additionally, getting 180 points, is LESS than they would get otherwise.  And they get 180 points in that case, Not a Margin of Victory of 180.

 

 

Odds are that 180 will change 300 points soon.  It still doesn't resolve the question.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Darrwood

[skyhwk290 94]

By the RR rule I did above the Rebel is defined as the "Winner". The MoV does not take in account winner or loser at the point for calculating, so you take the high score 254 (Imperial) minus the low score 200 (Rebel) and you get 54. You them go to the chart that nets the winner 7 points and the loser 3, now the actual winner comes into play, the Rebel gets 7 points and the Imperial gets 3. Made me work for this, it seems backwards I know but that is what my interpretation is, any counters?

"Players determine their margin of victory using their final scores as described on page 9 of the Star Wars: Armada Rules Reference booklet. The player with the greater score subtracts his or her opponent’s score to calculate the margin of victory. Then, the players compare this result to the table below and receive a number of tournament points based on whether they won or lost."

[Darrwood 62]

By the RR rule I did above the Rebel is defined as the "Winner". The MoV does not take in account winner or loser at the point for calculating, so you take the high score 254 (Imperial) minus the low score 200 (Rebel) and you get 54. You them go to the chart that nets the winner 7 points and the loser 3, now the actual winner comes into play, the Rebel gets 7 points and the Imperial gets 3. Made me work for this, it seems backwards I know but that is what my interpretation is, any counters?

"Players determine their margin of victory using their final scores as described on page 9 of the Star Wars: Armada Rules Reference booklet. The player with the greater score subtracts his or her opponent’s score to calculate the margin of victory. Then, the players compare this result to the table below and receive a number of tournament points based on whether they won or lost."

 

Yeah, I'm going to call BS on that.  There is no way that the players points are swapped when determining margin of victory of one player's fleet is wiped out.

 

Same scenario, and lets say the imperials also got 75 points for contested outpost.  Now, the rebels win by even MORE because the imperial player completed the objective.  No way.  

Edited May 14, 2015 by Darrwood

[skyhwk290 94]

But the tournament rules don't say winner minus loser, they say highest minus lowest consult the table and winner gets more points. Saying it's BS is not a valid argument based on the evidence at hand, how do you interpret the outcome based on the evidence covered in the RR and tournament rules? I agree it sucks the Imperial contributed to his own demise but I for one cannot see the alternative based on what we have at hand, the Rebel is defined (without question in my mind) as the Winner of the match per the RR rules, and the tournament rules only cover for scoring once a game is over.

[Darrwood 62]

But the tournament rules don't say winner minus loser, they say highest minus lowest consult the table and winner gets more points. Saying it's BS is not a valid argument based on the evidence at hand, how do you interpret the outcome based on the evidence covered in the RR and tournament rules? I agree it sucks the Imperial contributed to his own demise but I for one cannot see the alternative based on what we have at hand, the Rebel is defined (without question in my mind) as the Winner of the match per the RR rules, and the tournament rules only cover for scoring once a game is over.

 

Is see the way it is written how your are coming to that conclusion.  I do.  I also think that is never the way that was meant to be played.  I know many a TO that would simply look at that scenario and say "no way".

 

Im keeping my fingers crossed for a good FAQ on this in the near future. 

[Englishpete 1,379]

If you destroy all your opponents ships, but have less VP's then you score it 5-5 with a zero MoV for the winner. as there is no negative MoV in the table for victory.

 

the rules state that the player who has destroyed all his opponents ships is awarded a win.

 

Looking at the published Victory points chart you have won by a negative MoV.

 

The lowest MoV margin in the chart is 0-10 so we must use that. The win column for that awards 5 points, the loss column awards 5 points.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Englishpete

[skyhwk290 94]

But the tournament rules don't say winner minus loser, they say highest minus lowest consult the table and winner gets more points. Saying it's BS is not a valid argument based on the evidence at hand, how do you interpret the outcome based on the evidence covered in the RR and tournament rules? I agree it sucks the Imperial contributed to his own demise but I for one cannot see the alternative based on what we have at hand, the Rebel is defined (without question in my mind) as the Winner of the match per the RR rules, and the tournament rules only cover for scoring once a game is over.

 

Is see the way it is written how your are coming to that conclusion.  I do.  I also think that is never the way that was meant to be played.  I know many a TO that would simply look at that scenario and say "no way".

 

Im keeping my fingers crossed for a good FAQ on this in the near future.

Agreed that official clarification is needed I don't see it coming up too often though, odds of finishing off all ships of one side in 6 rounds/90 minutes are very low. The Rebel in this scenario deserves a parade for that finish, impressive feet.

@Englishpete - I agree (in spirit) that the points allotment should be somewhere close to 5-5 or they remake the table to include point allotments for negative results and state "winner minus loser" instead of what we currently have. I can only come to this conclusion based on the rules in front of me and their literal meaning.

[Wildhorn 453]

You guys missed an important point in the tournament rules:
 

If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships and squadrons, the destroyed fleet is worth 180 points, even if the opponent’s fleet is comprised of components worth fewer than 180 points.

 

Of course this was when 180 was the norm, now it would be 300. So if you win by destroying opponent last ship (which trigger by the same way the destruction of all the remaining squadrons), you consider to have destroyed 300 points. It is just like in X-Wing, even if someone would field a squad of only 50 points, you would still get the full 100 points if you destroy all his ships.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Wildhorn

[Aminar 1,949]

You guys missed an important point in the tournament rules:

 

If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships and squadrons, the destroyed fleet is worth 180 points, even if the opponent’s fleet is comprised of components worth fewer than 180 points.

Of course this was when 180 was the norm, now it would be 300. So if you win by destroying opponent last ship (which trigger by the same way the destruction of all the remaining squadrons), you consider to have destroyed 300 points. It is just like in X-Wing, even if someone would field a squad of only 50 points, you would still get the full 100 points if you destroy all his ships.

No we didn't. The game ends when all ships are killed. But the full points only comes when all ships and squadrons are killed. There is a distinct difference.

[skyhwk290 94]

You guys missed an important point in the tournament rules:

 

If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships and squadrons, the destroyed fleet is worth 180 points, even if the opponent’s fleet is comprised of components worth fewer than 180 points.

Of course this was when 180 was the norm, now it would be 300. So if you win by destroying opponent last ship (which trigger by the same way the destruction of all the remaining squadrons), you consider to have destroyed 300 points. It is just like in X-Wing, even if someone would field a squad of only 50 points, you would still get the full 100 points if you destroy all his ships.

I thought this to but the difference is the "ships and squadrons" part that threw that off but that may have been the intent in this situation but they had to throw in the "and".

[Wildhorn 453]

 

You guys missed an important point in the tournament rules:

 

If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships and squadrons, the destroyed fleet is worth 180 points, even if the opponent’s fleet is comprised of components worth fewer than 180 points.

Of course this was when 180 was the norm, now it would be 300. So if you win by destroying opponent last ship (which trigger by the same way the destruction of all the remaining squadrons), you consider to have destroyed 300 points. It is just like in X-Wing, even if someone would field a squad of only 50 points, you would still get the full 100 points if you destroy all his ships.

No we didn't. The game ends when all ships are killed. But the full points only comes when all ships and squadrons are killed. There is a distinct difference.

 

 

I think this is a wording issue because else someone could bring just a Corvette with Dodonna and be at 64 points, denying opponent any way to score more than 8 points (and if he manage to take down a fighter before going down, opponent only score 7 points).

[Aminar 1,949]

You guys missed an important point in the tournament rules:

 

If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships and squadrons, the destroyed fleet is worth 180 points, even if the opponent’s fleet is comprised of components worth fewer than 180 points.

Of course this was when 180 was the norm, now it would be 300. So if you win by destroying opponent last ship (which trigger by the same way the destruction of all the remaining squadrons), you consider to have destroyed 300 points. It is just like in X-Wing, even if someone would field a squad of only 50 points, you would still get the full 100 points if you destroy all his ships.

No we didn't. The game ends when all ships are killed. But the full points only comes when all ships and squadrons are killed. There is a distinct difference.

 

I think this is a wording issue because else someone could bring just a Corvette with Dodonna and be at 64 points, denying opponent any way to score more than 8 points (and if he manage to take down a fighter before going down, opponent only score 7 points).

Provided they can't hunt down a Corvette in 6 turns. Yes. They can do that. But as fast as Corvette's are, I don't think they're that fast. And It's still a losing strategy.

[MaverickNZ 591]

If you destroy all your opponents ships, but have less VP's then you score it 5-5 with a zero MoV for the winner. as there is no negative MoV in the table for victory.

the rules state that the player who has destroyed all his opponents ships is awarded a win.

Looking at the published Victory points chart you have won by a negative MoV.

The lowest MoV margin in the chart is 0-10 so we must use that. The win column for that awards 5 points, the loss column awards 5 points.

This.

Whomever blows up all the opposing ships is the winner, so will be getting points from the winner column of the margin of victory table, the loser gets points from the loss table. The question now is how much was it won by?

So simply total the destroyed points and add victory points, if the winner scored less than the loser on points then it's a 0 margin of victory, so 5-5, essentially a draw.

If however a player destroys ALL of an opponents ships AND squadrons, they are awarded the full match points, be it 180 or 300 post wave 1. This prevents players making low cost destructive lists that might be 200 points, blowing up a high value ship/s I.e more than 200 points worth (but in turn getting wiped out) and coming out with a higher point "score" then the winner (limiting it to a 5-5 result) because they had less forces for their opponent to potentially destroy.

It's also a fairness thing just in general in tournaments also, because if someone brings a very low point cost fleet to a tournament, every player they play against is possibly going to be limited in the maximum MOV they can score. Extreme example but if someone bought a 100 point fleet to a 300 point tourney, no one could get a 150+ MOV win against them just on adding points without significant objective scoring. By awarding the full points for a compete wipe it tries to negate this.

Edited May 19, 2015 by MaverickNZ

[ScottieATF 2,867]

The scoring rules for this game are poorly written in my view. Specifically the part in which you are only awarded full points if you destroy all of your opponents Ships and Squadrons, and yet the game ends when you destroy all your opponents Ships. Introducing situations in which you are cheated out of points by winning the game.

Edited May 19, 2015 by ScottieATF

[MaverickNZ 591]

The scoring rules for this game are poorly written in my view. Specifically the part in which you are only awarded full points if you destroy all of your opponents Ships and Squadrons, and yet the game ends when you destroy all your opponents Ships. Introducing situations in which you are cheated out of points by winning the game.

 

I don't think its "cheating" out of points at all. Rather it is specifically designed to give the "winning" player a difficult choice.

 

Take for instance if you had a battle that was almost over, and one player had a Victory class Star Destroyer with a couple of hull left, and the other player had 3 X-Wing squadrons and a CR-90 corvette with a single hull point remaining.

 

The Imperial player (even assuming that the X-Wings have only 1 hull left) has to make a difficult choice, nail the corvette for the win immediately and pass up on the fighter points, or risk facing the other players x-wings to get the full 300 (or whatever) points.

I know as the Imperial player I would be glad to sacrifice gaining 39 points and take the win, than risk losing the Victory - 85 points and the match.

 

If you want the full points, then you have to risk fighting for it and nail those dangerous squadrons first.

[Englishpete 1,379]

What MaverickNZ says is the case, this game is designed to add a level of strategy that X-wing does not have. Is it better to win by a smaller total or risk losing for the bigger win?

 

It's another reason I like this game. Nothing is black and white in it.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

The scoring rules for this game are poorly written in my view. Specifically the part in which you are only awarded full points if you destroy all of your opponents Ships and Squadrons, and yet the game ends when you destroy all your opponents Ships. Introducing situations in which you are cheated out of points by winning the game.

I don't think its "cheating" out of points at all. Rather it is specifically designed to give the "winning" player a difficult choice.

Take for instance if you had a battle that was almost over, and one player had a Victory class Star Destroyer with a couple of hull left, and the other player had 3 X-Wing squadrons and a CR-90 corvette with a single hull point remaining.

The Imperial player (even assuming that the X-Wings have only 1 hull left) has to make a difficult choice, nail the corvette for the win immediately and pass up on the fighter points, or risk facing the other players x-wings to get the full 300 (or whatever) points.

I know as the Imperial player I would be glad to sacrifice gaining 39 points and take the win, than risk losing the Victory - 85 points and the match.

If you want the full points, then you have to risk fighting for it and nail those dangerous squadrons first.

The thing that you are missing is that the ability to draw out the game in order to try and score the full build points before winning via total ship destruction is not something only you have control over.

Your opponent has multiple avenues available to them in which they can, independent of what you do, destroy thier own ship in order to force the game to end and deny you MoV. Whether they simply run thier ship over an obstacle to finish it off or off to board, they can force the lower MoV on you.

I could bring a fleet of only the 39pt Corvette and a single Y-wing. I could set up that Corvette facing my board edge and with my first move run the Corvette off the board. Since I have a Y-wing remaining you will not score 261-361 remaining points as the game will end instantly. This will mean a substantial hit on your Tournament Points. Now this is obviously an extreme example but it is the type of thing the Tournament Rules should guard against.

More commonly your opponent could build a Fleet with let's say a 15 point Initiative bid and the full 100pt Squadron allowance. 4 Turns in they are down to thier last ship but still have a fair bit of thier Squadrons remaining. Rather then allowing you to mop up those Squadrons before moving on thier last Ship and thus secure the full build points and a higher MoV, they can simply destroy thier own Ship and force the game to end. Denying you points via what amounts to a concession.

Those situations should not be possible, plain and simple. You should not be able to deny your opponent, and you yourself gain, Tournament Points via you essentially forfeiting the game.

If destroying all your opponents Ships is a victory condition that ends the game immediately it must include with it the full possible Fleet points. Specifically since it is a victory condition your opponent can force upon you.

Edited May 19, 2015 by ScottieATF

[MaverickNZ 591]

Voluntarily destroying your forces should be considered by most TO's as 'conceding' and as such carries a hefty penalty under the rules to prevent players from doing exactly what you suggest.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

The rules shouldn't be written in a way that could force TOs to be that involved in a game.

Yes in the first instance I brought up it isn't much of a stretch to see a TO stepping in and overruling the event rules.

But in the second situation it is in the other players interest to keep the MoV close as it dictates how many points they will score in a loss. A TO shouldn't be mandating that players play in a manner that is not on thier interest, so long as they are playing by the rules. What if the suicide play also results in the destructon of an enemy ship?

More over the second example I gave could also occur without the losing player purposefully destroying thier last ship. They simply could have no ability to not run off the board, run over an obstacle, or overlap a ship resulting in thier destruction.

The overall reality is it is untenable to give a victory condition and then penilize players for reaching it.