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stooster99

The X-Wing is a Fine Ship

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I think GreenDice has the heart of it. Most ships have more than pure stats. The X-Wing only has its stats. And those stats are a bit weak. Not a lot weak. But a bit weak. A meta that emphasizes precision maneuvering and arc dodging with highly efficient ships just eats the X-Wing alive. An environment where Defenders and Advanced run against X-Wings is good for the X-Wing.

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It's a pointless argument. This game will be around for many more years and the x-wing, and all other ships, will continue to evolve with fixes and upgrades. If you like x-wings then play them. It's that simple. If you think its good you don't need the approval of others. I use them in casual games and not too often in tournaments. But since tournaments are a small portion of my games it's not a big deal. I don't need to make the greatest squad ever when playing with friends. They will be tweaked at some point sooner or later when ffg decides to do so regardless of forum arguments.

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It's a pointless argument. This game will be around for many more years and the x-wing, and all other ships, will continue to evolve with fixes and upgrades. If you like x-wings then play them. It's that simple. If you think its good you don't need the approval of others. I use them in casual games and not too often in tournaments. But since tournaments are a small portion of my games it's not a big deal. I don't need to make the greatest squad ever when playing with friends. They will be tweaked at some point sooner or later when ffg decides to do so regardless of forum arguments.

What if I like the x wing but do not like loosing frequently?

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It's a pointless argument. This game will be around for many more years and the x-wing, and all other ships, will continue to evolve with fixes and upgrades. If you like x-wings then play them. It's that simple. If you think its good you don't need the approval of others. I use them in casual games and not too often in tournaments. But since tournaments are a small portion of my games it's not a big deal. I don't need to make the greatest squad ever when playing with friends. They will be tweaked at some point sooner or later when ffg decides to do so regardless of forum arguments.

What if I like the x wing but do not like loosing frequently?

I personally fly b-wings but play with an x-wing toy and make laser noises when my opponent is doing something.

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It's a pointless argument. This game will be around for many more years and the x-wing, and all other ships, will continue to evolve with fixes and upgrades. If you like x-wings then play them. It's that simple. If you think its good you don't need the approval of others. I use them in casual games and not too often in tournaments. But since tournaments are a small portion of my games it's not a big deal. I don't need to make the greatest squad ever when playing with friends. They will be tweaked at some point sooner or later when ffg decides to do so regardless of forum arguments.

What if I like the x wing but do not like loosing frequently?

 

 

At the moment....fly a B Wing?

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It's a pointless argument. This game will be around for many more years and the x-wing, and all other ships, will continue to evolve with fixes and upgrades. If you like x-wings then play them. It's that simple. If you think its good you don't need the approval of others. I use them in casual games and not too often in tournaments. But since tournaments are a small portion of my games it's not a big deal. I don't need to make the greatest squad ever when playing with friends. They will be tweaked at some point sooner or later when ffg decides to do so regardless of forum arguments.

What if I like the x wing but do not like loosing frequently?

 

 

At the moment....fly a B Wing?

 

 

there are a few X-wing pilots that don't go down like peasants to a plague

 

Luke survives incredibly well against swarms and mini-swarms and well against your typical 3 dice ships. He doesn't enjoy HLCs though.

 

Tarn is just an X-wing against swarms and mini-swarms, but against hyper modified big ships that love re-rolling their ****, R7 astromech makes him very survivable.

 

and then there's biggs...he's biggs. If you can force bad shots on him he won't die immediately but more importantly he'll protect your better ships :P

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Sorry man, I guess I tire of people propping up beliefs with bad statistics just as much that do from a single day of play.

 

It's not just from List Juggler, it's also from his Jousting Efficiency thread. Rather than bash the math, how about you actually visit the thread and start a discussion? Or talk to him about it? The X-Wing is overcosted, and the math says it just could really use a free hull upgrade to be good.

I have and I've gone around in circles with MJ on it. His math is fine but his inferences can at times be flawed.  The statistical analysis of tournament data has been misleading and actually has very little to do with actual statistics.  I guess what bothers me the most is how people are drawing religious conclusions from it and forcing it onto others like it is the gospel.

 

With just straight Attack/Defense values a X-wing is weaker than a B-wing, but there's more to a ship than that. I still say the X-wing could use a little help, I won't deny that, but the difference is much smaller than the loud voices on this forum like to proclaim.

  

The tournament data in List Juggler show that X-wings are chosen fairly infrequently by successful players (those that make it into tournament elimination rounds). They also show that the proportion of X-wings in elimination rounds is much lower than the proportion of X-wings in Swiss rounds. There are a number of feasible alternative hypotheses for the former,mbut it's very hard to explain the latter unless there's something wrong with the ship.

I'm right with you on poking at the seams of MajorJuggler's cost model, but you can see the X-wing's problems without it. The B-wing pays 1 more point for the same Attack, better overall durability, a better action bar, and a dial with access to a couple of very important maneuvers.

A Z-95 is 9 points cheaper for 1 point of Attack and 1 point of hull, with a similar dial and action bar. If it could equip a Mangler Cannon and a Hull Upgrade, it would cost just 20 points--and at least one of those upgrades is overpriced. The X-wing isn't fine, even if you don't buy all of MajorJuggler's work.

What if I like the x wing but do not like loosing frequently?

Then you should be tightening frequently instead, I guess.

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A Z-95 is 9 points cheaper for 1 point of Attack and 1 point of hull, with a similar dial and action bar. If it could equip a Mangler Cannon and a Hull Upgrade, it would cost just 20 points--and at least one of those upgrades is overpriced.

 

We could call them Headmanglers! :P

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It's a pointless argument. This game will be around for many more years and the x-wing, and all other ships, will continue to evolve with fixes and upgrades. If you like x-wings then play them. It's that simple. If you think its good you don't need the approval of others. I use them in casual games and not too often in tournaments. But since tournaments are a small portion of my games it's not a big deal. I don't need to make the greatest squad ever when playing with friends. They will be tweaked at some point sooner or later when ffg decides to do so regardless of forum arguments.

What if I like the x wing but do not like loosing frequently?

I personally fly b-wings but play with an x-wing toy and make laser noises when my opponent is doing something.

See that's problem solving. I'll do this and report my findings

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for me, it happened a bit later

specifically: wave 5 (not counting the stress wing; **** things ate phantoms before we've even dreamed of an errata :D)

nowadays, I look across the table and see one of four things

Yt-1300

Decimator

Yt-2400 w/HLC

Aggressor w/HLC

Now, if you're an x-wing pilot against one of those, your first course of action should be to pop open the cockpit and hope your exposure to the vacuum of space unlocks some long dormant human potential and triggers a spontaneuous leap in evolution that allows to ascend into near-godhod

you do this because, unless you're Tarn motherloving liam Mison, it's the best chance you have of surviving against those things

Wave V is when I noticed too. Specifically, the Decimators. It is just too much ship for X-wing centered squads to chew through consistently, depending on the escorts for the Decimator. Fel or Whisper? Cake walk for me personally. 4x Academy? I'm Still 0-6 vs that garbage using XXX and XXXZ. And those squads had really great records vs everything else. After Wave VI and the automatic damage and prevalence of ships that could now push 4+attack dice per turn, I found my 2 agility X-wings were dying faster than I could put any damage out. Range 3 is no longer safe either, as the prevalence of Mangler+Autothrusters makes it nearly impossible to stick damage on an aggressor, while they can roll hits, no problem, thanks to IG-88B's ability. Sure, Autothrusters was a great call for small ships defending against turrets, but the whole application of the free evade result at range 3 while in arc thing, I feel, was too much. Edited by InstantAequitas

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Well if it's an opinion then it can't really be wrong, you can have two different opinions about something and have both of them be right from a given point of view.

 

Actually, opinions CAN be wrong.

 

This particular one isn't, however.  The X-Wing is indeed a fine ship.

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for me, it happened a bit later

specifically: wave 5 (not counting the stress wing; **** things ate phantoms before we've even dreamed of an errata :D)

nowadays, I look across the table and see one of four things

Yt-1300

Decimator

Yt-2400 w/HLC

Aggressor w/HLC

Now, if you're an x-wing pilot against one of those, your first course of action should be to pop open the cockpit and hope your exposure to the vacuum of space unlocks some long dormant human potential and triggers a spontaneuous leap in evolution that allows to ascend into near-godhod

you do this because, unless you're Tarn motherloving liam Mison, it's the best chance you have of surviving against those things

Wave V is when I noticed too. Specifically, the Decimators. It is just too much ship for X-wing centered squads to chew through consistently, depending on the escorts for the Decimator. Fel or Whisper? Cake walk for me personally. 4x Academy? I'm Still 0-6 vs that garbage using XXX and XXXZ. And those squads had really great records vs everything else. After Wave VI and the automatic damage and prevalence of ships that could now push 4+attack dice per turn, I found my 2 agility X-wings were dying faster than I could put any damage out. Range 3 is no longer safe either, as the prevalence of Mangler+Autothrusters makes it nearly impossible to stick damage on an aggressor, while they can roll hits, no problem, thanks to IG-88B's ability. Sure, Autothrusters was a great call for small ships defending against turrets, but the whole application of the free evade result at range 3 while in arc thing, I feel, was too much.

Autothrusters needed at least a limited broader application (especially because of the increase of cannons where R3 hurts agility reliant ships.) They are brutal agains two attack dice ships at R3, but I don't think that them only working outside of arc would have been enough exactly because of the increased firepower you mention.

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for me, it happened a bit later

specifically: wave 5 (not counting the stress wing; **** things ate phantoms before we've even dreamed of an errata :D)

nowadays, I look across the table and see one of four things

Yt-1300

Decimator

Yt-2400 w/HLC

Aggressor w/HLC

Now, if you're an x-wing pilot against one of those, your first course of action should be to pop open the cockpit and hope your exposure to the vacuum of space unlocks some long dormant human potential and triggers a spontaneuous leap in evolution that allows to ascend into near-godhod

you do this because, unless you're Tarn motherloving liam Mison, it's the best chance you have of surviving against those things

Wave V is when I noticed too. Specifically, the Decimators. It is just too much ship for X-wing centered squads to chew through consistently, depending on the escorts for the Decimator. Fel or Whisper? Cake walk for me personally. 4x Academy? I'm Still 0-6 vs that garbage using XXX and XXXZ. And those squads had really great records vs everything else. After Wave VI and the automatic damage and prevalence of ships that could now push 4+attack dice per turn, I found my 2 agility X-wings were dying faster than I could put any damage out. Range 3 is no longer safe either, as the prevalence of Mangler+Autothrusters makes it nearly impossible to stick damage on an aggressor, while they can roll hits, no problem, thanks to IG-88B's ability. Sure, Autothrusters was a great call for small ships defending against turrets, but the whole application of the free evade result at range 3 while in arc thing, I feel, was too much.

Autothrusters needed at least a limited broader application (especially because of the increase of cannons where R3 hurts agility reliant ships.) They are brutal agains two attack dice ships at R3, but I don't think that them only working outside of arc would have been enough exactly because of the increased firepower you mention.

It is especially brutal vs two attack dice ships. Personally I feel if they wanted to nerf the effect on cannons, it should have been specified in the text. Making it an almost impossible shot was fairly silly. It's almost as if they just want you to skip your shots on Squints because you know that it will not do damage. It's yet another frustrating aspect that I have when Flying X-wings in particular. They don't have cannons, they don't take away the R3 agility bonus, so why punish them for setting up good shots?

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X-Wings are fine ships, in a game full of better ships.  They are good enough to play, good enough to win even, but nowhere near good enough to win consistently (with the possible exception of one or two specific named pilots).  If you just want to play some X-Wing, grab them and have a good time.  You will have a reasonable chance of winning any games you play.  But if you are trying to go to a tournament, where you need to win 6-7 games in a row, the X-Wing is not going to get the job done.

 

My preferred fix would be to just give the X-Wing 4 attack dice in order to make them "fit" their appearance and the exceptionally heavy armament they carry.  Those aren't just 4 lasers, they are 4 big ones. and I don't think the 4 attack would be OP on a ship with the limited survivability and maneuverability of an X-Wing.  It would also give the X-Wing a specific role within the Rebel lineup (generic big guns) that the other ships do not have.

 

Alternately, we could put out "leader" titles, like "Rogue Leader" or "Red Leader" that replaces the pilot ability of all friendly ships of type X (whatever the squadron is for, in this case X-Wings) with the pilot ability of the leader.  It would be of the most use on generics (who need the help) because they wouldn't be giving up anything, but would be interesting to see on skilled ships whose ability would revert once the leader goes down.  On ships like the X-Wing that have a wide variety of interesting pilot abilities it would make for a very flexible ship.

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Sorry man, I guess I tire of people propping up beliefs with bad statistics just as much that do from a single day of play.

 

It's not just from List Juggler, it's also from his Jousting Efficiency thread. Rather than bash the math, how about you actually visit the thread and start a discussion? Or talk to him about it? The X-Wing is overcosted, and the math says it just could really use a free hull upgrade to be good.

I have and I've gone around in circles with MJ on it. His math is fine but his inferences can at times be flawed.  The statistical analysis of tournament data has been misleading and actually has very little to do with actual statistics.  I guess what bothers me the most is how people are drawing religious conclusions from it and forcing it onto others like it is the gospel.

 

With just straight Attack/Defense values a X-wing is weaker than a B-wing, but there's more to a ship than that. I still say the X-wing could use a little help, I won't deny that, but the difference is much smaller than the loud voices on this forum like to proclaim.

  

The tournament data in List Juggler show that X-wings are chosen fairly infrequently by successful players (those that make it into tournament elimination rounds). They also show that the proportion of X-wings in elimination rounds is much lower than the proportion of X-wings in Swiss rounds. There are a number of feasible alternative hypotheses for the former,mbut it's very hard to explain the latter unless there's something wrong with the ship.

 

And what degree of statistical certainty can you say that? I can't say one way or the other personally since it's currently a statistical mess. But even looking at the charts that are present, it shows that the Rookie pilot (this is the one we're harping on here right?) is in the top 10 chosen pilots for both "all" lists and elimination round lists. The percentage doesn't change much between the two, although the sampling isn't likely to be statistically significant and has confounds.

 

How often a pilot or ship is chosen simply states how popular it is and not directly causally related to its effectiveness. Yes, sometimes they are popular because they are an effective ship, but sometimes they are popular because they provide a counter to another ship, sometimes they are popular because they are new, sometimes they are popular because they fill point gaps, sometimes they are popular because they are cool. A "successful" player doesn't choose ships purely based on effectiveness, they choose ships that will help them win against the current popular lists. Effectiveness of a ship is a factor but not the only factor. The meta history has a number of cases of effective ships that have been ignored, only to become popular later with little reason other than list popularity. 

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I've seen this list table meta lists on a few different occasions. The problem with the x wing according to the math is it needs another hull. But if you can only for four x wings (if you are flying only x wings) in a single list anyway why not just spend the extra points on the hull upgrade? Fly in formation and focus fire one enemy at a time and they pop like 8th grade zits. While I do see the problem with the x wing stat line I do enjoy it and I have had a lot of success with them.

X-WING: Rookie Pilot (21)

· R2-D2 (4)

Hull Upgrade (3)

X-WING: Rookie Pilot (21)

Hull Upgrade (3)

X-WING: Rookie Pilot (21)

Hull Upgrade (3)

X-WING: Rookie Pilot (21)

Hull Upgrade (3)

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Sorry man, I guess I tire of people propping up beliefs with bad statistics just as much that do from a single day of play.

 

It's not just from List Juggler, it's also from his Jousting Efficiency thread. Rather than bash the math, how about you actually visit the thread and start a discussion? Or talk to him about it? The X-Wing is overcosted, and the math says it just could really use a free hull upgrade to be good.

I have and I've gone around in circles with MJ on it. His math is fine but his inferences can at times be flawed.  The statistical analysis of tournament data has been misleading and actually has very little to do with actual statistics.  I guess what bothers me the most is how people are drawing religious conclusions from it and forcing it onto others like it is the gospel.

 

With just straight Attack/Defense values a X-wing is weaker than a B-wing, but there's more to a ship than that. I still say the X-wing could use a little help, I won't deny that, but the difference is much smaller than the loud voices on this forum like to proclaim.

  

The tournament data in List Juggler show that X-wings are chosen fairly infrequently by successful players (those that make it into tournament elimination rounds). They also show that the proportion of X-wings in elimination rounds is much lower than the proportion of X-wings in Swiss rounds. There are a number of feasible alternative hypotheses for the former,mbut it's very hard to explain the latter unless there's something wrong with the ship.

And what degree of statistical certainty can you say that? I can't say one way or the other personally since it's currently a statistical mess. But even looking at the charts that are present, it shows that the Rookie pilot (this is the one we're harping on here right?) is in the top 10 chosen pilots for both "all" lists and elimination round lists. The percentage doesn't change much between the two, although the sampling isn't likely to be statistically significant and has confounds.

 

How often a pilot or ship is chosen simply states how popular it is and not directly causally related to its effectiveness. Yes, sometimes they are popular because they are an effective ship, but sometimes they are popular because they provide a counter to another ship, sometimes they are popular because they are new, sometimes they are popular because they fill point gaps, sometimes they are popular because they are cool. A "successful" player doesn't choose ships purely based on effectiveness, they choose ships that will help them win against the current popular lists. Effectiveness of a ship is a factor but not the only factor. The meta history has a number of cases of effective ships that have been ignored, only to become popular later with little reason other than list popularity.

Maybe in Wave IV when the X-wing was the best ship without a turret to fight the Phantom and still do well against Fat Han. The script has flipped. People know that the X-wing is not a safe bet to bring to a tournament because it lacks durability and agility. It is an expensive middle-of-the-road fighter in a meta of min-max (BBBBZ, Thug Lyfe/RAC+AutoFel, Brobots). Go ahead and max out an X-wing squad, just adding a few of the astromechs to increase the durability of the X-wings could almost pay for a whole Z-95, but you will never have enough points in your squad of X-wings to put the right upgrades and EPTs with the right pilots without going to 101 points or sacrificing a good pilot for a mediocre one. Biggs is the single exception because at 25 points you know he is going to die so you really don't end up putting upgrades on him aside from maybe R4-D6 if you have the point left over. If you attempt to minimize upgrades on an X-wing squad you get a bunch of lackluster performers who could have been swapped out with B-wings.

If you feel as if the X-wing does not need any help and is just being ignored in the meta, why don't you take a Squad of XXX, XXXZ, or something similar and win a Regional Championship. Maybe afterwards you would understand my frustration and the frustration of everyone else who likes flying the X-wing when you come back empty handed.

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