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Ali Mesratep

Portable anti-tank weapons

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There is no portable heavy weapon that can defeat an armored vehicle. If the missiles tubes presented in both core books (the Golan Arms HH-15 or the Merr-Sonn PLX-2M) are able to destroy a speeder bike or damage seriously a landspeeder or an airspeeder, they are barely able to scratch a lightly armored military vehicle. With a damage of 20 character-scale (2 vehicular-scale) plus 1 Breach, the missiles tubes just pass the Armor of an AT-ST : so, what is this weapon which is able to take down an AT-ST in that trailer?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsA0hpogJL4

 

Apparently, RPS-6 rocket launchers were successfully used in the Clone Wars against Heavy Missile Platform droid gunships on Onderon (see Star Wars the Clone Wars Saison Five episodes 2 to 5).

 

RPS-6 Rocket Launcher

Portable guided/unguided anti-vehicle weapon widely used in both camps during the Clone Wars.

 

RPS-6_rocket_launcher.jpg

 

Weapon Type/Model: Rocket Launcher/RPS-6.

Manufacturer: Merr-Sonn Munitions Inc.

Skill: Gunnery • Scale: Vehicular

Damage: 4 • Critical: 2 • Range: Long

Encumbrance: 6 • Hard Point: 3

Price/Rarity: 2,000 ®/5 (launcher cost).

Special: Blast 4 [Character scale], Breach 3, Cumbersome 3, Guided 3 [optional], Limited Ammo 6, Prepare 1.

Rocket Cost (rack of 6): 6,000 ® (guided), 1,500 (unguided).

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Nice, but the launcher is too cheap.  The normal missile tubes are 7500cr with a pack of 6 included.  Since packs of 6 are 500cr each, that means the launcher is 7000 by itself.  So the RPS-6 launcher should be at least that much...it wouldn't necessarily have to be more, since the electronics could be identical, though bumping it up wouldn't hurt.

 

The cost of the missiles is good IMHO, though it wouldn't hurt if they were higher too.  The rarity should be much higher, since the base missile tube is already at 8.  That much damage potential puts entire armies at risk.  Law enforcement would be brutal about making these items very hard to get.

Edited by whafrog

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I think it would be better to simply stat a different rocket for the existing tubes; this would give it a very multipurpose design, amd encourage diversification of firepower. For example, the anti-tank rocket would lose the blast quality against infantry, but gain an extra breach point, and do six points of vehicle damage. In addition, AT rockets would be at least ® 8.

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You could drop the Prepare 1 and edit Limited Ammo 6 to Limited Ammo 1.  The Missile Tube clearly has a magazine depicted in its image while the RPS-6 has the look of a single fire, and possibly single use, weapon.  The Rack of Missiles then could be written with a 6 Reload limit.  While it doesn't change anything mechanically, I think it gives a better narrative quality.

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Nice, but the launcher is too cheap.  The normal missile tubes are 7500cr with a pack of 6 included.  Since packs of 6 are 500cr each, that means the launcher is 7000 by itself.  So the RPS-6 launcher should be at least that much...it wouldn't necessarily have to be more, since the electronics could be identical, though bumping it up wouldn't hurt.

 

The cost of the missiles is good IMHO, though it wouldn't hurt if they were higher too.  The rarity should be much higher, since the base missile tube is already at 8.  That much damage potential puts entire armies at risk.  Law enforcement would be brutal about making these items very hard to get.

 

You are right, Whafrog. A rarity of 5 for such a piece of ordnance is way too low. They are devastating weapons and must only be used as follow:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZvT3MHpffk

 

… or not.

 

A rarity of 8 is typical for that kind of heavy weapons … 9 maybe (I keep the 10 of rarity for weird stuff like lightsabers).

 

And for the cost of the weapons, what about 8,000 credits for the launcher and  6,000 credits for 6 “smart” missiles and 1,500 credits for 6 “dump” missiles. 1,000 credits for a guided armor defeating missile is twice the cost of a starship concussion missile, but it’s the cost of miniaturization. 

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I see what you're doing, but this feels like something a player would bring to me without thinking about the bigger picture.

  • Lower damage or ditch breach. Damage 4 at Vehicle scale is more then sufficient as that means Damage 5 minimum will be typical. Most "modern" ground vehicles have an armor of 3, so without breach this thing will deal minimum of 2 points of damage, and at Crit 2 will be easily critting. Think about what it'll be like to be on the receiving end of this thing. Do you want your speeder to be obliterated by one of these in a single shot? Also at Breach 3 this thing will be able to damage AT-ATs easily. Which kinda goes against the theme of an AT-AT.
  • The varying scale is uneededly complex. Pick a scale. Personally, I'd just ditch blast, at 4 character it's pretty pointless anyway.

 

You also might want to look through the topics on Crits and Component Hits. IIRC both require you exceed the Armor rating, but I recall a lot of debate around if you need to inflict HT. Offhand I think the result was no, which would allow the missile tube to still inflict crits and component hits on Armor 3 vehicles....If anyone recalls a more definitive answer on that front, please pipe up...

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I don't have the missile tube stats in front of me, what are the hard points on that thing?

 

Tricking out a rocket launcher seems like a weird concept to me, so 3 hard points feels excessive.

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I suggest just taking the existing missile tube and changing the damage to 2 (planetary scale). Now it can hurt armored vehicles with sufficient successes on the roll--since they are now 10x as effective--yet it's notably lighter in punch than missiles actually mounted on vehicles (as it should be).

 

As for the weapon in the OP, you might want to distinguish the scale for Range too, as Long on the planetary scale is way beyond what any man-portable weapon should have.

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I don't have the missile tube stats in front of me, what are the hard points on that thing?

 

Tricking out a rocket launcher seems like a weird concept to me, so 3 hard points feels excessive.

4HP on the missile tube. I'm assuming the idea is if you're a lightweight you can put in on a tripod or weapons harness (which are 2 HP) and still have room for Telescopic and Macro scopes, which does make a lot of sense since the thing has the range.

 

The Missile Tube (commonly associated with the Plex series) falls into the mess that Star Wars has had even going back to the WEG days. Every source and author listed the thing as being good/bad for something else. I've seen it depicted as a toolbox sized thing able to knock out AT-STs, and a week later a new book comes out with it as a largely ineffective monster that's so big and complex it's practically a costume of it's own.

 

 

 

Personally if I wanted something to hit heavier armor I'd make a TOW type system and stick the MM-XT from Dangerous Covs on a tripod and require it to need 3 actions to assemble like the Heavy Repeater.... Cost 1K+missiles, Rarity of 8ish R.  Round it off with an Enc of 9 or 10 to keep it portable but not really packable, add 2 HP for mounting sights/scopes. Spare rockets/missile are 5 or 6 enc each.

Pros: Harder hitting, Cheaper start up cost

Cons: Not portable like the tube (I'd say no weapon harnessing it), Higher upkeep (ammo is 250-400/shot)

 

That gives the players something they can move and position, but not something they can keep in their back pocket to murder hobo with.

 

Alternatively I'd rebuild the shoulder fired Ion Cannon from the WEG days. but that's another story....

Edited by Ghostofman

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I've toyed around with the idea of making a new personal scale weapon special rule of "Anti-vehicular" that would read "when fired at a planetary scale target, this weapon adds 10 damage per success."

 

Basically lets the weapon do something against vehicles in skilled (or lucky) hands, but keeps it from being the anti-infantry weapon of choice.

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My group just made the missile tube vehicle scale.

Damage 2, breach 1. That doesn't change the stats, at all, except that extra successes then actually deal damage instead of needing 10 (!!) successes for a single additional damage against a vehicle.

It's still not the go-to weapon for killing mooks because nobody in my group can afford to drop that much money on missiles when a blaster or vibroaxe still kills 3-4 minions reliably.

 

-

 

Quicksilver's "Anti-vehicular" rule is a nice upgrade to that - it keeps the same deadliness versus people while still making it viable against vehicles.

Edited by What

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I just use a conversion of 5:1 instead of 10:1 for personal to vehicle scale. That makes the Missile Tube be in the ballpark of your creation and allows it to swat light speeders easily and be able to do some damage to armored vehicles and starfighters (comparable to a light blaster cannon).

 

ETA: While this is what I've been using (5:1) it does create some issues when you start shooting at very large ships. For example, it works well with shooting at speeders and starfighters with heavy personal-scale weapons. But, it also means a heavy blaster rifle (damage 10 becomes 2) has a chance to cause damage to larger starcraft in skilled hands with a good hit. So, I've been experimenting with something suggested by someone at this forum (sorry, can't recall who) - Don't use the ratio at all, but determine the damage as usual then divide by (Silhoutte of the target +1), round down. Then apply Armor and Breach. Ex: A Missile Tube doing 23 damage (3 successes) versus a Silhoutte 3 Starfighter would do 5 damage before reducing it by Armor. This allows personal weapons to have a greater chance of affecting a small speeder bike while still being unable to harm larger ships. I like my blaster carbine PCs to be able to harm a land speeder while being unable to hurt an AT-AT or capital ship.

Edited by Sturn

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Considering most ground and air speeders have armor 0-1 and 5-10 Hull trauma, a Missile Tube inflicts reasonable damage that can even be devastating through good roll. For example, firing on stock airspeeder (from EOTE core) inflicts base of 2 damage, so two or three shots can bring one down, adding to it a critical hit, both will give the pilot a bad day :)

 

Its also reasonable, like others said, to make a missile for the tube that has Breach. Flechette Launcher (Anti-Vehicle) from Dangerous Covenants has 10 dmg and 2 breach, and even vicious 3... making it more useful. Also missiles from the same book come with blast, and can make sure the vehicle will go down in the first hit.

 

Generally its a smart design, that you can't just shot any speeder. Its like making cars that wont protect its driver in an accident :)

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Generally its a smart design, that you can't just shot any speeder. Its like making cars that wont protect its driver in an accident :)

Whoa there that's a stretch.. I don't think most cars would survive if they took an RPG or even the little M72 LAW rocket.  

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A big part of the problem is expectations. There's a belief that a man with a rocket launcher can actually take out a tank just by shooting it.

 

While not entirely untrue, someone who goes out with an RPG expecting to kill tanks is likely never coming back. Those weapons work when used by surprise and with some luck, and they rarely (when used against modern tanks) result in an actual "kill" so much as just rendering the vehicle ineffective.

 

In a game translation, I can take a missile tube, scout a location, use various rolls to give myself boosts and upgrades, Spend Dpoints, talents, ect. So when the AT-ST shows up and gets close I can fire from cover with a skill of ◙◙■■ and a difficulty of . Good chance there I'll score a crit, and with a little luck bag a pair of triumphs and be able to select "drives damaged" and narratively say I took out the ankles. If I can do it twice... the AT-ST is now Speed 0 and can't go anywhere until repaired. So I can either avoid it, or hit it more later. Even if I hit with a mere wimpy crit, If I have something like 2 Adv and 1Triumph, I can say "I use the Advantage to Crit, and the Triumph to require the crew to make a Fear check!" giving me a shot an penalizing the crew for the rest of the encounter, or maybe forcing them to flee.

 

On the other hand if I just take a missile tube and run out with it, my gunnery check is gonna be more like ♦♦ vs ♦♦■■. Now it's super hard to Crit, and impossible to make component hits. The rockets are just hitting the thick, sloped, frontal armor, exploding in a shower of sparks, and the driver is laughing while the gunner arms the grenade launcher.

Edited by Ghostofman

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Generally its a smart design, that you can't just shot any speeder. Its like making cars that wont protect its driver in an accident :)

Whoa there that's a stretch.. I don't think most cars would survive if they took an RPG or even the little M72 LAW rocket.  

 

Just an example for real life, not related to hitting a car with a weapon, just making it fool proof for various situations. Meaning some speeders are made to survive a general set of situations, including being shot at, which is common...

Also, Ghostofman laid it out better then I did :)

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A big part of the problem is expectations. There's a belief that a man with a rocket launcher can actually take out a tank just by shooting it.

 

While not entirely untrue, someone who goes out with an RPG expecting to kill tanks is likely never coming back. Those weapons work when used by surprise and with some luck, and they rarely (when used against modern tanks) result in an actual "kill" so much as just rendering the vehicle ineffective.

 

In a game translation, I can take a missile tube, scout a location, use various rolls to give myself boosts and upgrades, Spend Dpoints, talents, ect. So when the AT-ST shows up and gets close I can fire from cover with a skill of ◙◙■■ and a difficulty of . Good chance there I'll score a crit, and with a little luck bag a pair of triumphs and be able to select "drives damaged" and narratively say I took out the ankles. If I can do it twice... the AT-ST is now Speed 0 and can't go anywhere until repaired. So I can either avoid it, or hit it more later. Even if I hit with a mere wimpy crit, If I have something like 2 Adv and 1Triumph, I can say "I use the Advantage to Crit, and the Triumph to require the crew to make a Fear check!" giving me a shot an penalizing the crew for the rest of the encounter, or maybe forcing them to flee.

 

On the other hand if I just take a missile tube and run out with it, my gunnery check is gonna be more like ♦♦ vs ♦♦■■. Now it's super hard to Crit, and impossible to make component hits. The rockets are just hitting the thick, sloped, frontal armor, exploding in a shower of sparks, and the driver is laughing while the gunner arms the grenade launcher.

 

Not the best of examples, but well said. I would say that in military situations like that, you should have specific weapons. In this case, something with armor 2 at least or shields would be build to withstand anti vehicle attacks. So yeah, planning and having the right tool would make it.

Edited by RusakRakesh

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This is a pretty interesting thread.

I was having a bit of the reverse problem, when I had a huge "personal" scale enemy (Rancor/megafauna type) get almost instantly killed by a guy on a speeder bike. Given, almost no megafauna could really stand up to a modern vehicular weapon, but the cheesiness of how it happened just threw me off. 

Any suggestions on this?

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on the topic of anti-vehicle personal scale weapons Crits seem to be the most obvious way to bring one down. A shoulder launched missile is not likely going to penetrate heavy armour, but getting lucky and taking out an important sensor or drive system is much more likely.

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I was having a bit of the reverse problem, when I had a huge "personal" scale enemy (Rancor/megafauna type) get almost instantly killed by a guy on a speeder bike.

Did you remember that the repeating blaster on the standard speeder bike is Personal Scale?

Other than that, though, I would encourage you to try and plan for the presence/availability of vehicle weapons in such an encounter. Some megafauna could be built as a vehicle (to challenge player vehicles), or circumstances could conspire to take vehicle weapons out of play (like ddense forest that limits field of fire).

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I was having a bit of the reverse problem, when I had a huge "personal" scale enemy (Rancor/megafauna type) get almost instantly killed by a guy on a speeder bike.

Did you remember that the repeating blaster on the standard speeder bike is Personal Scale?

 

 

That always seems to me like a balancing thing, where sometimes the situation is, that such vehicle will arrive and/or attack while the PCs are not mounted.

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