Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
TIE Pilot

Accuracy Corrector x1 versus Three Dice

Recommended Posts

Anyone run the numbers on this? Usually we say 2 dice ships aren't much good, but how often does a three dice ship turn up three hits? With the obvious exception of Range 1, where does the Accuracy Corrector TIE advanced lie relative to the TIE interceptor and TIE fighter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beats the tie fighter hands down. Interceptor, I think the DPS is slightly better. Interceptor with targeting computer or focus/marksmanship beats it though. I maintain my belief based on my own experience that the ATC is the better choice.

Edited by DariusAPB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Number of Dice

Red Attack Dice                 1          2          3         4           5        6        7

   

Damage Caused (-)          0.5         1         1.5      2  |        2.5       3       3.5

                                                                 |--------------|

Damage Caused (F)       0.75      1.5      | 2.25      3         3.75     4.5    5.25

                                                                |

Damage Caused (TL)      0.75       1.5   |   2.25      3          3.75     4.5    5.25

                                                                |

Damage Caused (F+TL)0.9375  1.875 | 2.8125  3.75    4.6875   5.625  6.5625
 

Hits are valued the same as crits here, and "damage caused" really means "average result of rolling this many dice, modified to desirable results".

The line shows where Accuracy Corrector falls.



 

Edited by rhs2042

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It all comes down to what else you modify your shots with.  So, are you going to Focus and roll the dice?  Or TL and roll the dice?  Or just roll 3 dice and see how it goes?

 

Part of what's great about AC is that you can then spend your action to Evade or possibly Focus.  You can turtle up and still get decent damage.  This is especially great on a Tie Advanced, which has 3 hull, 3 evade, and 2 shield, as well.  It's much more defensive than the other two.  So, you can dish out consistent damage longer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, ATC isn't even really there to be compared.  With ATC, you roll 2 dice, but always add a crit.  That's much different then rolling 3 dice.  ATC is best on those that will ensure they have a target in range to TL and that can also take something like Predator or Outmaneuver to modify those 2 dice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know the advantages of AC action economically. Interested as to where it lies between two dice and three dice damagewise.

 

Honestly I find it depends what you are shooting at !

2 dice against a 3 evade ship with a stealth device(making it 4), yeah doable but god help you if he gets to range 3 or is obstructed.

The 3 dice has more of a chance in that regard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assuming you Focus as your action and are willing to spend on your attack, you would average 2.5 hits with ATC (1.5+1 free crit) against 2 hits with the AC. The advantage in the AC is saving the focus/evade for defense, or using an maneuver for positioning. Likewise, if you are having to target lock every turn with ATC, you would net the same damage on average without any advantage on defense.

Edited by R2ShihTzu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using 3 dice you have a 50% chance of rolling 2 hits or better (without focus or TL). You're at about 29% chance of rolling better than 2 hits (taking crit+hit being better than 2 hits into account). That's with no modifiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IF you have an Accuracy Corrector on a 3 die ship, and do not want to Focus or Target-Lock, you have an expected damage of 2.125. 
That is to say, you have a 1/8 chance of rolling 3 damage, and every other result will be 2.

IF you have a 3 die ship with a free Target Lock, you have an expected damage of 2.25 (3/4 chance for each die to eventually be damage, * 3 dice).

 

The AC is almost as good as taking a free action every turn, irrespective of stress.
A Fire-Control System is taking a free action every turn, irrespective of stress, though you must do it on the same ship you've already attacked.

Subtracting an estimated 1 damage per 10 attacks is worth the freedom to attack whomever you wish.

 

 

On a 2 attack ship, the AC is directly better than the FCS, incidentally. 2 damage vs 1.5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest factor that everyone seems to be forgetting is the ATC is *not* an automatic extra crit.  It's an extra automatic crit if you have a target lock on the defending ship.  While this may not be a big deal for the higher PS pilots, the generics and lower PS pilots will have difficulty establishing TLs.  Also, as mentioned earlier, ATC allows for you to always use your focus defensively. 

 

Thus, I maintain the position that AC is better on generics and lows PS, while ATC is better with the higher pilot skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know the advantages of AC action economically. Interested as to where it lies between two dice and three dice damagewise.

The long answer is that it depends on the game state: whether, how often, and in what ways both ships in the attack can modify their dice, and how many dice each player is rolling.

The short answer is that 2 Attack with an Accuracy Corrector typically falls about halfway between 2 Attack and 3 Attack in effectiveness. [Derp.]

2 Attack with Accuracy Corrector typically falls about halfway between 3 Attack with an action and 3 Attack without an action.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I know the advantages of AC action economically. Interested as to where it lies between two dice and three dice damagewise.

The long answer is that it depends on the game state: whether, how often, and in what ways both ships in the attack can modify their dice, and how many dice each player is rolling.

The short answer is that 2 Attack with an Accuracy Corrector typically falls about halfway between 2 Attack and 3 Attack in effectiveness.

Halfway between 2 attack and 3 attack is 1.25 damage without actions.

Halfway between them WITH actions is 2.

Accuracy Corrector gives you that halfway mark as your lowest expected damage, but you can still go higher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know the advantages of AC action economically. Interested as to where it lies between two dice and three dice damagewise.

The long answer is that it depends on the game state: whether, how often, and in what ways both ships in the attack can modify their dice, and how many dice each player is rolling.

The short answer is that 2 Attack with an Accuracy Corrector typically falls about halfway between 2 Attack and 3 Attack in effectiveness.

Halfway between 2 attack and 3 attack is 1.25 damage without actions.

Halfway between them WITH actions is 2.

Accuracy Corrector gives you that halfway mark as your lowest expected damage, but you can still go higher.

I did all the math, then got distracted and wrote something stupid. Thanks for the catch; fixed now.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not a heavy hitter, it's a slow grinder. Even with Cluster Missiles, you're not doing exceptionally high damage spikes, you're just ensuring a solid minimum result. You save your actions for positioning/defense, while banking on 2+ hits regardless of dice or enemy modifications to your roll.

 

If you get a range 1 shot with the Advanced you can definitely roll 3 dice and hope for better results than 2 hits. You don't trigger ACC until after the roll (or in the case of blinded pilot, you basically skip a few steps and go straight to 2 hits with no further modifications to the attack) so using ACC doesn't mean you can't get lucky and roll a better result.

 

ATC is definitely strong on high PS ships that are moving last, know who they are going to point at each turn, have an easier time grabbing TLs in opening rounds, and/or have multiple actions per turn (Vader, Squad Leader, PTL etc.). ATC could be good in a build with Jendon/Title, but I don't know if I like that rather pricy combo.

 

ACC is probably better on lower PS generic ships who may struggle to get TLs, or keep someone in their arc if they do get to grab a lock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So how heavy a hitter can the AC x1 be considered to be? Are they a legitimate damage threat like a TIE interceptor or X-wing?

Not really, or at least not exactly.

They're consistent damage against ships with 0-1 Agility--for instance, they're going to tear your Decimator up in no fewer than 6 shots. And they're still a fairly good choice against something with 2 Agility, but the picture looks increasingly bleak as you climb the defense ladder. And it'll take you a year to get through to something like Soontir Fel + PTL + Stealth Device.

Maybe an analogy will help. HLC isn't really cost-effective against soft targets with a lot of hit points, but it's great for punching through hard targets. Accuracy Corrector is the opposite: it's rubbish when it's up against a hard target, but it's relentlessly good against soft targets.

I would run Tempest Squadron + Accuracy Corrector without hesitation, because there are a lot of metagame threats it can handle pretty effectively, and its ability to game the action economy is pretty unprecedented. But I would try to pair that Tempest with something that can really threaten those hard targets, because alone Accuracy Corrector won't do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at the distributions. As a precursor, let's just look at red dice, so we don't consider the effect of green dice right away. Also, do not discriminate between hits and crits for the moment:
 

3-atk dice | naked | focus  | focus+TL
3 hits     | 12.5% | 42.19% | 82.4%
2 hits     | 37.5% | 42.19% | 16.48%
1 hits     | 37.5% | 14.06% | 1.1%
0 hits     | 12.5% | 1.56%  | 0.02%

The accuracy corrector vs the 3-atk ship needs to have context of what kind of action you have. The raw information plopping out is shown in the table above. Also not taken into account are the effects of adding range bonuses, which the accuracy corrector will not directly help with--but do not discard the notion that it can help you.

Compared against the naked, no dice modifying 3-atk, the accuracy corrector provides a better result 50% of the time, a worse result 12.5% of the time, and the same result 37.5% of the time.
Against a focused or target locking 3-atk ship, the accuracy corrector provides a better result 15.62% of the time, a worse result 42.19% of the time, and the same result 42.19% of the time.

Against a focused and target locking 3-atk ship, the accuracy corrector provides a better result only 1.12% of the time, a worse result 82.4% of the time, and the same result 16.48% of the time.

 

Start considering your realistic options for action economy. If you think your 3-atk ship would not often have actions available for offense, your accuracy corrector will have the same or better result 87.5% of those times. If you think your 3-atk ship will have just a single dice modification (focus or target lock), accuracy corrector will have the same or better result 57.81% of those times. If you think your 3-atk ship will have both focus and target lock, accuracy corrector will have the same or better result only 17.6% of those times.

 

You can continue in this vein for the range 1 or 3 situation. You can also begin to consider the effects of defense dice. You can do any kind of analysis on your own. If you want to look at MJ's work (which have assumptions for range, defender agility, and action availability), his numbers come out to the following damage output coefficients:

2-atk: 1.000

2-atk + AC: 1.4630

3-atk: 1.7058

3-atk + AC: 1.9349

 

AC added to a 2-atk ship improves its output by 46.3%, while a 3-atk ship sees a 13.4% improvement. 2-atk with AC is not quite as high as 3-atk, but also not really explicitly portrayed is the more free action economy. Those actions could mean more focuses, evades, barrel rolls, or boosts on the defense without sacrificing offense. This doesn't really get brought up that often I read about it, but AC could also give you a bit more freedom in offensive actions, too.

 

Crazy talk? Well, if you are anticipating a range 1 encounter in the near future, you might want to take a target lock and hold onto it. AC will let you compensate offensively by assuring a good damage output. At range 1, you let loose a TL + focus attack. Then the following round, you may k-turn and still have AC improving your damage output despite the stress. FCS will admittedly let you do something similar for a point less, but with the added restriction that you will have to keep attacking the same target. I don't believe this strategy is being taken into account for directly in MJ's calculations (his numbers treat range and action availability as independent). I haven't bothered to calculate with these assumptions, but they could be interesting.

Edited by zero9300

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The greatest thing about accuracy corrector is the deletion of minimum results.
The worst you can possibly do is 2 damage, before cancelation.
That's to say that your expected damage without an action is slightly better than the expected damage of 4 dice, without an action.

 

However, the way we approach the "Expected Damage" statistic is simply to show the most common result: the center of mass of the bell-curve.

With Accuracy Corrector, it isn't a bell-curve anymore. It's a shelf.

 

 

 

The odds of rolling less than 2 damage with AC are 0%
The odds of rolling less than 2 damage with 3 naked dice are 50%

THAT is the power of AC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/127569-mathwing-fixing-the-tie-advanced/

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

 

TL;DR:

2 attack dice = 1.0 damage normalized

2 dice + AC = ~1.4 damage normalized

3 attack dice = ~1.75 damage normalized

 

AC also provides a healthy bonus to your durability since you can keep the focus/evade/barrel roll to stay alive rather than for offense.

Edited by MajorJuggler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know the advantages of AC action economically. Interested as to where it lies between two dice and three dice damagewise.

Assuming you're not picky about crits over hits, the corrector is as good about 7/8th the time as rolling 3 dice. Without a focus. (it's three hits, one crit, two focus, right?)

Versus adv. Targeting computer which is as good as a accuracy corrector half the time. Better one quarter, and worse the other quarter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So from what I am understanding, IggyB plus Accuracy Corrector should be a good pairing. It might even make sense to add Autoblaster, because if you're boosting as your action, you aren't taking other actions to up your damage potential, so you might as well have 2 guaranteed uncancelable hits.

2 uncancelable hits has to be better than 4 unmodified dice that can be rolled against, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 uncancelable hits has to be better than 4 unmodified dice that can be rolled against, right?

Well, expected rolls of 4 naked dice is 2

Adding a Target-Lock or a focus turns that to 3, but you're counting on your opponent not canceling 1.

However, the problem is that you'd need to be at Range 1 for it to work.

HOWEVER:

Accuracy Correcter can also be used to render your first attack as 0 hits. This definitely pairs well with IG88B, getting a Han Solo effect instead of a Gunner effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...