Overwhelming Force?

[Ebak 1,465]

Have you ever came across a game where you've played and just looked at the opposite board edge and thought "I can't do this...there is no way to do this."?

 

I ask because I played an Epic game today that...I really did not enjoy very much.

 

We were running a GR-75 (Slicer tools and other stress and jamming upgrades), Wes, Tarn (R7 astromech + Flechette) and Biggs (R2-D2 + Flechette), Jake and Tycho (Both with Autothrusters, PTL etc), Dutch Vander (BTL + Ion Turret + Stress Droid), and Han Solo (MF title, C3PO, Gunner).

 

Vs.

 

3 Decimators (Oicunn, Kenkirk and Patrol Leader, all with a variety of upgrades, mara jade and Issard on Kenkir, Vader on the patrol leader, etc) two TIE Defenders, and Two Shuttles (Jendon and Kagi, with target lock shenaningans going on).

 

I looked at the board and felt that 3 Decimators was waaaay too much to deal with...and I was right. We got smashed. Took down one Deci and a Shuttle, okay yes PL was Vadered to death, but by that point we had Tycho and Han left.

 

I felt that from the start there was not a single chance in winning and so kinda took the fun out for me. I don't mind loosing...but I feel like the odds were very much against us from the very start.

 

I've discussed it with the person in question and it'sall good, I'm merely looking for the opinion of others in regards of was 3 decis too much or was it simply a lack of firepower on our side?

 

Your thoughts people?

Edited May 4, 2015 by Ebak

[nikk whyte 3,869]

They all had Mara jade and Vader? That's why you lost, the other guy was using illegal upgrades.

[catachan23 399]

The little dot next to the name of a card means that they are unique, and that you can only have one of them in your entire force.

 

 

If all the Decimators had those upgrades (three Mara Jades, and three Darth Vaders) then you lost because your opponent was using more than the allowable limit of those cards.  

 

Mara and Vader are awesome... three of each of them would be overpowered.

Edited May 4, 2015 by catachan23

[Ebak 1,465]

 

I was being generic, all rules were observed, everything was legal and above board. My main issue is the abhorrent amount of total hit points you have to chew through. There was even a joke that they'd need two damage decks because there isn't enough damage cards in one deck for three decimators.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Ebak

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

I looked at the board and felt that 3 Decimators was waaaay too much to deal with...

 

That's exactly the moment when you lost the game.

 

... Considering that you had enough firepower on the fighters to remove one decimator per turn, and that you had a ship that could literally ram out of the game anything that goes on its path, no matter how many hit points it has.

[Bloodstripe Baron 510]

The thing about the transport is that it's not an offensive ship and it can easily become a point sink.

Min-maxing hasn't really made it to epic yet but the transport really needs a specific purpose to be useful

[FlyingAnchors 4,600]

For the points of the GR-75, I would have run another YT-1300 and a YT-2400.

 

It's a cool epic ship, but no offensive weaponry really makes it an Epic mission based vehicle, instead of straight shoot em up.

 

Especially against 3 deci's...

[ID X T 820]

...and if you had a CR-90 your opponent would probably be the one posting this topic. Decimators die horribly to long range Turbolasers.

Also theoretically it should be easier to take out Decimators in Epic because you can concentrate firepower more effectively and get them off the board. Your ability to do so in that match largely revolves around keeping Biggs alive for longer. In that way you force your opponent to divide firepower between your GR-75, Biggs and whatever is not in range of Biggs.

[Aminar 1,949]

You got intimidated too fast. You outnumber him by a ton.

Decimators die fast

They have a lot of hull by they eat damage by the score. They're no more durable than a falcon, and less durable in the long run than a Fat Falcon.

That said, you had too many points in upgrades and eh firepower for epic without a lot of synergy.

You still had 21 attack dice a turn.

He had the same plus a transport.

Donit get intimidated.

Lastly I find that the stress Transport is far less useful than a comms-boostering one.

Comms lets you clear your stress and hold enough energy to heal your shields. Bright Hope keeps you right up in the fight as a ramming machine. It's a little cheaper and offers easier use.

(I generally run it with Bright Hope, 2 Comms Boosters, and Chewbacca.)

Edited May 5, 2015 by Aminar

[Punning Pundit 4,746]

It's a bit ironic that your opponent was running 3 Decimators and you don't have a CR-90. But we go to epic matches with the fleet we have.

Decimators do have a _lot_ of hull to chew through, but they do not have any defense dice. If you concentrate fire on them, they should drop. You had slicer tools and Flechette torpedoes? The Defender should be taking damage.

Etc.

Not to mention the GR-75 rebel medium battering ram.

I'll echo an earlier comment: when you looked at the board and thought "I can't win", instead of "how can I win?", you lost.

[Marinealver 8,073]

Well big ships are rather underpowered for the game. They cost so much, move so little and have so many exploitable blind spots it makes dash feel not so vulnerable with his doughnut of death.

 

When FFG designed the Epic they for some reason didn't want to make big ships seem too powerful because they wanted to keep the bar entry into epic low. In the end basically it is more of a pay 2 lose game if you by the epic ships.

 

Now CR-90 may have fared better with Single Turbo lasers but I put emphasis on may as it could also may not change the outcome, I don't expect Decimators to do well in Epic against CR-90 range as it gets hit with 5 dice and only has 1 defense dice. However again the balance of Epic is not a big issue for FFG as they have mentioned in their Epic rules clarifications it is not a competitive format.

 

To be honest I hope that the Imperial Raider is able to slaughter waves of fighters so that the anti-big ship weapons and the longer range of the CR-90 can act as a counter so you have a sort of cyclic balance with CR-90 beating Raider which beats heavy fighter lists which beats CR-90s.

• Sort of like a Raider=> Transport/Fighter=> CR-90=> Raider type deal.

But again the biggest problem with Epic is that only the rebels have the big ships and they were powered down to not turn off imperial players. I think once other factions have their epic ships epic might become a better play style but I don't know if the big ships will be competitive.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Marinealver

[Pinch1loaf 44]

I disagree that big ships are not competitive. Since the updated tournament rules (and we use those rules) came out I feel they are appropriately priced. I played an Epic game a  few weeks ago at 300 points. We were hideously outnumbered and outgunned but the plan came through as good as we could have hoped. We were the CR-90, Chewbacca, and 4 Y-Wings vs 7 Tie Fighters including Howl, Cpt. Jonus, 2 HLC Firesprays (one was Krassis), RAC w/captive and Soontir Fell. I'll admit I was worried about investing some 180pts in 2 ships. After deployment I looked across the table and said to my friend "We're going to die horrendously". To which he responded "Or win gloriously". We lost 2 Y-Wings whilst tabling our opponents. My observasions:

 

1: Never give up, never surrender!

2: Comms Boosters WOW! I remember thinking these would be useless. My friend insisted on flying the Falcon, only then did I see the synergy. Then I discovered another synergy while playing with the R2-A2 BTL-Warthog. Can't praise this upgrade enough.

3: 4-5 dice Turret is BOSS! Don't worry about close range, let your escort handle that. Your opponent is a fool to ignore this. Use that fact to your advantage.

 

The game was closer than an MoV would make it appear. Everything was down to few meager hull. At one point the corvette was down to 5 hull combined between front and back. I know the engagement would be close to chest but if we succeeded in spreading the damage thin we could pull it off and we did just that.

[Niinivaara 324]

Forget all the small fancy stuff, concentrate, kill, repeat.

 

Your list was a tad sloppy IMO, so some tips for the next encounter based on my personal experience. Stress-dealing is not so important in Epic, unless it´s a collateral effect (tactician). Flechettes are cheap, but they take TL to use and they are as effective as the main guns in X and B. You need to pour in damage, not occasional stress. Take Proton torp instead, if you want. And GR-75 is much better to provide "EW" support, if needed.

 

Next time, take Chewie instead of Han, and ditch Golden Rod. MF title is also not very useful unless you have PtL/other free actions (a high PS large ship is also bound to collide), and C-3PO is pretty useless if you face large numbers of enemy vessels. You are not there to endure, but to kill. Chewie provides enough staying power, you´ll spare some points to take some nice EPT (VI if PS is vital).

 

Decide one role - and one role only - for GR-75 and take it as cheap as possible. It´s a lucrative and easy target if fully loaded, and usually you cannot use all its upgrades due to action/energy/damage limitations.

 

One Ion weapon system is not going to make any impact in Epic, take a lot(!) or none. And save some points leaving R2-D2 in the hangar, Biggs won´t have time to regenerate shields when he gets engaged. He´ll give you a round, most likely not more. A-Wings are nice in Epic, but I´m not so sure about the aces. Ok, high PS is nice, but low PS A´s are excellent blockers, and Greens can have more or less everything the aces can have.

 

Don´t get intimidated, Imps were hardly overwhelming. You had PS advantage (=deployment advantage, very beneficial in Epic) and fighter superiority. As mentioned before, X-Wing aces should kill or cripple one Deci per round. Imps had hit points but not that much firepower for the points. As mainly Imperial player, I rarely dare to take a Decimator to Epic, as I feel they are way too brittle, and don´t pack enough punch for their points. For 50+ points I prefer to have at least 6 red dice

 

Use your strenghts against enemy´s weaknesses, it´s really simple as that. And have a plan what to do, especially in team play.

[Pinch1loaf 44]

Warthogs with seismic charges can't be praised enough. In epic you'll have to be jousting and they are the kings of the joust. The Y-Wing is just a fantastic ship for epic games. Wave 7 and Extra munitions will give them even more utility. If you're looking for efficiency look no further. They have damage output, durability, control, and AoE for swarms all at a low price of 25-30 points a ship. You just can't find that anywhere else.

[dotswarlock 2,424]

I have gathered enough experience, both in terms of flying and squad building, that no, I never enter a game, look at my opponent's squad and think that I can't win.  The opposite, however, has come true, more than once; where I enter a game and the enemy's squad lacks synergy and I feel sorry for what I'm about to do.  You know, stuff like seeing a low PS tie bomber with multiple ordinance that he will never, ever get a chance to shoot.

[Pinch1loaf 44]

...  The opposite, however, has come true, more than once; where I enter a game and the enemy's squad lacks synergy and I feel sorry for what I'm about to do...

 

Lol, been there.

[Tvboy 3,529]

No, because I'm never interested in losing when I play, so thinking "I can't win" before a game even starts is useless to me. If I am in a bad match-up, I try to figure out what I need to do to reverse whatever factor is making the match-up bad for me, starting on turn 0. Which of my opponent's ships do I need to kill first? How can I place my 3 obstacles to give me a terrain advantage? How can I deploy my ships to maximize my advantage and reduce my weakness? What tricks and maneuvers do I have that I can use to put my opponent in a bad position so they can't make use of the inherent advantage their list might have over mine? 

 

Instead of thinking about defeat, think about how you are going to win, so that at least at the end of the game you can hold your head up and know you gave it your best and know what changes need to be made to your list to prevent such a lopsided match-up in the future. 

 

3x Deci in epic sounds like 2x YT-1300 in 100 points. If you split your fire, you will never kill them, but if you concentrate fire without letting up, then as soon as the first Deci goes down your opponent will be crippled by only having 2 attackers in an Epic match. 

[DariusAPB 6,925]

What everyone else said. Taking a Deci into epic is risky as turbolasers chew them up. Deci's can not handle mass fire.

I'm not a massive fan of the GR75 but as has been said, bright hope and ram does work.

 

For tactics, a refused flank (grouping up into one area) would probably work, forcing a single angle of fire.