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ORDNANCE: No EPT pilots only: Focus on Ordnance Roll.

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Compensating Computer:

Mod  - Cost: 0

Equip this card only if you do not have an EPT slot. 

When you roll attack dice using a missile, torpedo secondary weapon, or an enemy ship detonates a mine originating from your ship, you may change all [focus]s to [hit]s.

 

There, ordnance is fixed.  

Action economy addressed.

Low PS addressed:  You still have to get a TL, and work for that.  Fair game. 

 - Makes it useful to take a bunch of low cost generics and put utility missiles on them.  

Damage output increased.  

Works for ALL buff-needed ordnance:  Prockets are good enough.  

Works for mines.  Sorry Proton Bomb will still suck.  

 

Works with: 

Works for all generics that can carry ordnance:  Tie Adv, Xs. etc. 

Doesn't affect: Ints, Phantoms. 

 

Does conflict with Auto on A wings.  Also not usable on Greens or high level As, bu these can do conventional firing via 2action PTL and high PS.  Besides, you're always taking Prockets on As anyway.  Which coincidentally do not get buffed by this.  

 

Buffs Rebel Ys: Horton and Dutch.  Both whom are un-used pilots in this current day and age.  

Doesn't work with PS5 Syck or Firespray. 

 

Will work with new Wave 7 ships with no EPTs. 

 

Higher PS ships with EPT can usually simply take PTL and do a big ol' blast with their high PS gained TL F. 

Honestly also, spending for PS gives you less to spend for ordnance anyway.  

 

---

 

Other versions: 

 

Skillshot:

EPT - Cost: 0

When you roll attack dice using a missile, torpedo secondary weapon, or an enemy ship detonates a mine originating from your ship, you may change all [focus]s to [hit]s.

 

or

 

Add:  Each missile, torpedo or bomb that costs 4 or more is reduced in cost by 1 point.  

 

 

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Maybe these should just be called "Dumb Luck" upgrades! :D

 

I think a simple fix for ordnance is:

 

When you use a secondary weapon that is a missile or torpedo you may still use your primary weapon afterwards. 

 

This could potentially allow 2 cluster missiles and a primary attack (shock horror).  But it basically allows ships to "double tap" with the ordnance doing the first strike and the lasers following up.

 

EDIT:

 

This puts missiles and torpedoes in the same place as bombs.  If you can drop a bomb and still shoot why can't you do the same with an independently "fire and forget" missile and a separate crew controlled primary weapon.

Edited by DB Draft

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Cost 0?

 

Also, I don't like upgrades that have non-thematic restrictions. Why can't this computer be fitted onto any ship?

 

See Skillshot.  Also, it is compensating... it helps pilots with low abilities line up a shot (which is what offensive focus represents).  

Honestly, you have a point, but I think I personally would rather play with fixed ordnance than worry about exactly why compensating auto-targeting for my missiles is less effective for skilled pilots.  

 

Cost 0 definitely.  I believe the Math currently supports it.  This should not be up for debate... 

 

DB, I've thought of that too, but it tends to feel fluff-weird:  Its a little hard to spam missiles and your lasers..  And the missiles are targeted usually. And guided.  

Also, I think the damage potential goes up WAYYYY too high for elite pilots:  Imagine Wedge with Predator firing Proton Torp:  TLs, then 4dice quasi focus plus reroll against -1 agi, then another 3dice attack reroll against -1 agility? 

 

Thats some pretty toasty opponent.  

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OW:  

 

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Extra Munitions (2)
Concussion Missiles (4)
Seismic Charges (2)
 
Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Extra Munitions (2)
Concussion Missiles (4)
Seismic Charges (2)
 
"Whisper" (32)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Rebel Captive (3)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)
 
Academy Pilot (12)
 
Total: 100
 

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I'm still fond of the simplest fixes:

 

If the ordnance hits, it cancels all dice and adds (X) to the roll (where X is the damage rating of the ordnance)

 

So:

 

> Makes sense that the projectile requires a target lock since it actively seeks its target

> Gives fair opportunity for the enemy to avoid it

> If the enemy is hit, the projectile explodes and deals all its damage

> Decouples accuracy from damage - since it requires a TL, the projectile should be continuously chasing its target until it hits or runs out of fuel and becomes useless. If it does it, it makes sense that it deals all its damage

> Can add interesting 'miss' clauses for some ordnance types to allow for proximity explosions to still cause partial damage

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Ordnance's attack mechanics are fine: the acquire a target lock and fire interacts well with the pilot skill mechanic and works thematically. The problem is it doesn't damage the enemy ship enough for its cost. Making it easier to fire or giving it action economy buffs are just making it more like the primary.

 

If the ordnance hits, it cancels all dice and adds (X) to the roll (where X is the damage rating of the ordnance)

 

Problem there is you've invalidated all the ordnance with hit increase effects (Advanced Proton Torpedo, Proton Torpedo, Concussion Missile) and you've made all the four dice ordnance instant death against anything below an X-wing. The five dice ordnance are even worse. APT is meant to hit for five but you need a hefty setup which you wouldn't need under this system.

Cancelling defence dice works, but the ordnance itself still needs that damage roll. Otherwise it's much too powerful.
 

Also, I think the damage potential goes up WAYYYY too high for elite pilots:  Imagine Wedge with Predator firing Proton Torp:  TLs, then 4dice quasi focus plus reroll against -1 agi, then another 3dice attack reroll against -1 agility?

Once in the whole game. It's not that different to hitting a ship with a proximity mine and then shooting another. It turns Proton Torpedo from +1 die and a miniature focus effect on one R2-3 attack for 4 points to a 4 dice attack with a miniature focus effect for 4 points.

Plus making two attacks always has that action economy worry.

Edited by TIE Pilot

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Maybe these should just be called "Dumb Luck" upgrades! :D

 

I think a simple fix for ordnance is:

 

When you use a secondary weapon that is a missile or torpedo you may still use your primary weapon afterwards. 

 

This could potentially allow 2 cluster missiles and a primary attack (shock horror).  But it basically allows ships to "double tap" with the ordnance doing the first strike and the lasers following up.

 

EDIT:

 

This puts missiles and torpedoes in the same place as bombs.  If you can drop a bomb and still shoot why can't you do the same with an independently "fire and forget" missile and a separate crew controlled primary weapon.

Then u could have an adv. tropedo shot AND a range one primary.

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I think a simple fix for ordnance is:

 

When you use a secondary weapon that is a missile or torpedo you may still use your primary weapon afterwards. 

 

This could potentially allow 2 cluster missiles and a primary attack (shock horror).  But it basically allows ships to "double tap" with the ordnance doing the first strike and the lasers following up.

 

EDIT:

 

This puts missiles and torpedoes in the same place as bombs.  If you can drop a bomb and still shoot why can't you do the same with an independently "fire and forget" missile and a separate crew controlled primary weapon.

 

We have tried this a few times, and it works just fine.  It is nowhere near as powerful as it sounds at first, because poor action economy means the extra attack(s) don't have target lock or focus available.  If you are paying points for an extra shot, just giving you an extra shot works well.

 

Incidentally, it turns Horton Salm in a Warthog into a force of nature.

Edited by KineticOperator

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I'd heard a suggestion to do it in two phases, you go once down pilot skill for ordnance and once for primary attacks. Thematically represents the greater range of ordnance, reduces the double-tap feel (which feels slightly antithematic) and helps those lower PS pilots fire rockets without dying without removing higher PS's advantage over lower PS.
 

Then u could have an adv. tropedo shot AND a range one primary.

A completely unmodified Range 1 primary. Six points for an additional Range 1 five dice attack once per game.

Edited by TIE Pilot

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I like the elegance of it BB. If this was the fix I'd be cool with it, sort of. The action econ issue has always been 40% of the problem with ordinance.

 

The price of ordinance is and will forever be the real problem. You mod card needs a -3 point price discount on to really address all the issues. That way, we can actually assume that ships capable of carrying ordinance are loading them out as a stock item. No one ever sends an F-18 into the air with only guns, right?

 

Still, this would be a good halfway point to meet at.

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Tie pilot - I don't think the canceling dice and using flat damage is that bad of an idea and it makes tons of sense thematically. The thing is yes it would be instant death for a good bit if ordinance for ships with three or less hp but that is ok as it still has to hit. If you dodge it you dodge it and the low hp ships have a pretty good chance of dodging it. Whereas the lower agility ships that hahe a low chance of dodging won't be 1 shot, just hurt. I also think the damage rating would be different than the dice to hit if it worked like this. An example is cluster could be damage 2 (so max 4 damage), Flèchette 2, proton torps 3, etc. this would keep expected damage roughly the same against mid agility ships, slightly lower against Decimator, and high risk but high reward against glass cannons such as Fel.

It also wouldn't really hurt the ordnance you mentioned since changing results of the dice is still a very important feature (since this makes it more likely to actually hit and therefore do its damage.)

Dunno maybe I'm missing something in my logic as I'm a bit sleep deprived but it seems like this idea does have merit. (Of course this is one of the harder changes to implement effectively so it's all but guaranteed to never happen)

Edit: the idea of a separate phase before the normal ps order of firing is very intriguing, would greatly help out low ps bombers, and is a change that is actually fairly easy to implement so this could be quite an elegant buff to ordnance.

Edited by Umbranex

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I like the elegance of it BB. If this was the fix I'd be cool with it, sort of. The action econ issue has always been 40% of the problem with ordinance.

 

The price of ordinance is and will forever be the real problem. You mod card needs a -3 point price discount on to really address all the issues. That way, we can actually assume that ships capable of carrying ordinance are loading them out as a stock item. No one ever sends an F-18 into the air with only guns, right?

 

Still, this would be a good halfway point to meet at.

I mean it could give ordnance a -1 cost for 4 and above. Otherwise they do become auto include. Also I think it becomes cost efficient.

There's also the factor of damage early alpha striking versus just sheer damage count. Earlier damage is always better. See Corran as a top tier competitor.

You could get for 3 points a concussion missile easy to fire off a 2 dice ship for an average 3.75 damage. That's pretty good no? Requiring only a TL which may still be usable only the second combat round.

Double attacks with ordnance makes all of them double shot mechanics and makes you build for things like fcs and marksmanship. It changes radically the concept. Second again double shots are still incredibly good. Tier 1 good. See Corran and he doesn't even get to attack the next turn.

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I like the elegance of it BB. If this was the fix I'd be cool with it, sort of. The action econ issue has always been 40% of the problem with ordinance.

 

The price of ordinance is and will forever be the real problem. You mod card needs a -3 point price discount on to really address all the issues. That way, we can actually assume that ships capable of carrying ordinance are loading them out as a stock item. No one ever sends an F-18 into the air with only guns, right?

 

Still, this would be a good halfway point to meet at.

I mean it could give ordnance a -1 cost for 4 and above. Otherwise they do become auto include. Also I think it becomes cost efficient.

There's also the factor of damage early alpha striking versus just sheer damage count. Earlier damage is always better. See Corran as a top tier competitor.

You could get for 3 points a concussion missile easy to fire off a 2 dice ship for an average 3.75 damage. That's pretty good no? Requiring only a TL which may still be usable only the second combat round.

Double attacks with ordnance makes all of them double shot mechanics and makes you build for things like fcs and marksmanship. It changes radically the concept. Second again double shots are still incredibly good. Tier 1 good. See Corran and he doesn't even get to attack the next turn.

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Sigh radzap. Apparently you're the only one so far to think it's elegant. Ugh I am completely unhappy about this.

Fortunately, your job at FFG isn't on the line. Don't despair.

DESPAIRRRrRrRRrRrRrRrRrr.

:(. And here I thought it was an elegant and simple solution.

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As has already been stated. Why can't pilots with EPTs take it?

PTL, Dead Eye +RecSpec

The Doyle action required for ordnance is easily acquired via ptl or EI or an ability. It's mechanically balanced. Maybe not fluff balanced but you could say that the auto targeting doesn't help a higher ps pilot who shoots exactly at the right time.

Heck just give it a new name if that's what bothers you most.

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Sigh radzap. Apparently you're the only one so far to think it's elegant. Ugh I am completely unhappy about this.

Fortunately, your job at FFG isn't on the line. Don't despair.

DESPAIRRRrRrRRrRrRrRrRrr.

:(. And here I thought it was an elegant and simple solution.

 

It is, but it might be that you have to be a nutter like me to think so. I don't think that normalizing the damage output from a single attack option is a very extremist idea, though. It's stupid to pay for one shot weapons that might do damage if the RNG is being nice. This is compounded by the existence of cannons, which are like ordinance that get to fire every round.

 

The other day, I was toying with some ideas for a Syck list with Serrisu and I was thinking about putting Flechette torps on two of my mooks. Then I slapped myself and just spent two extra points to get Flechette Cannons that fire every round with no range/TL restrictions.

 

The proliferation of cheaper, more useful cannons has sealed the fate of ordinance as a tertiary weapon relegated to Epic and uber casual/thematic games (scenarios and mission play). The logic should be that launched ordinance should be guided and once the weapon is away should be expected to have an effect that is better than normal pew pew. Giving ordinance carriers more shots doesn't address the issue, the ships just die with more unfired weapons than before.

 

Don't despair Blerg, you're on the right track.

Edited by Radzap

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