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Spell Timing

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 The spell "Weakness" can be cast as required and reduces character/creature strength by 3 for one turn. Can this be used after the dice have been rolled for a battle. A friend fought the Lord of Darkness, the result was a tie. He wanted to use "Weakness" right after the dice had been rolled to make it so he would win. My point was the battle is already over once the die have been cast. He stated it can be cast as required. Who is right? 

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Even with "cast as required", you still need to follow the rules. In this case, the sequence for battles:

"Resolving Battles vs. Creatures

Battles against creatures are resolved in the following steps:

1. Evade

The character first declares whether he is evading or not
(see “Evading” on page 14). If not, then a battle takes
place.

2. Cast Spells

Any Spells that the player wishes to cast must be cast
before the attack roll is made. Any effects or abilities that
affect a character’s Strength or Craft must be implemented
before the attack roll is made." (p. 10)

Die rolls come after step 2, so if you want to use a Spell to boost you/weaken opponent during combat, step 2 is where it is used.

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This is only stated as spells at least..

There are objects such as different elixers, that you can use any time.

Jon New said that you can use them after the roll.

 

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Velhart said:

This is only stated as spells at least..

There are objects such as different elixers, that you can use any time.

Jon New said that you can use them after the roll.

Yesterday evening there was such a question about the very basic Potion of Strength.

We always played it BEFORE the combat roll, but the card doesn't state when it should be played. I don't like that Characters can get a bonus AFTER rolling... it's the same concept of Fate and multiple rolls. But this is only one Item in a big deck, along with the elixirs from Frostmarch and Dungeon.

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The_Warlock said:

Velhart said:

 

This is only stated as spells at least..

There are objects such as different elixers, that you can use any time.

Jon New said that you can use them after the roll.

 

 

Yesterday evening there was such a question about the very basic Potion of Strength.

We always played it BEFORE the combat roll, but the card doesn't state when it should be played. I don't like that Characters can get a bonus AFTER rolling... it's the same concept of Fate and multiple rolls. But this is only one Item in a big deck, along with the elixirs from Frostmarch and Dungeon.

I agree that it is a bit weird.

I have send a mail to John Goodenough about those elixers, but never receive a answer.

 

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Oke guys,

I got the answer from John Goodenough.

Question:

Can you use the Elixer of Destiny, Might, Rage, Wrath etc, also after the character has rolled the attack roll ? (and also after both opponents has roll the attack roll including > fate etc?

A: No. Any bonuses, modifiers, or penalties must be applied before the dice are rolled. See step 2 in the "Resolving Battles vs. Characters" on page 11 of the rulebook for more details.

--------------

 

This means that objects must also be used before battle/ psychic combat) begins.

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Oke guys,

I got the answer from John Goodenough.

Question:

Can you use the Elixer of Destiny, Might, Rage, Wrath etc, also after the character has rolled the attack roll ? (and also after both opponents has roll the attack roll including > fate etc?

A: No. Any bonuses, modifiers, or penalties must be applied before the dice are rolled. See step 2 in the "Resolving Battles vs. Characters" on page 11 of the rulebook for more details.

--------------

 

This means that objects must also be used before battle/ psychic combat) begins.

Can you tell me how you got in touch with John Goodenough? Or can you possibly send me a transcript of your conversation with him? I had this exact issue and the two people that disagree with me will not budge, regardless the numerous answers on online forums that specify that all effects on strength or craft must be implemented before the dice are rolled. They stubbornly contend that per the Golden Rule, all rules on cards supersede those of the rule book, and the card states it can be "cast at any time."

Furthermore, they wrote to Fantasy Flight Games and received a response that confirmed they were correct in using the spell as such (after the dice are rolled). Since I've played this game for 25 plus years, I had a hard time accepting this, so I checked the credentials of the actual person who responded and they were dubious to say the least.

Before it even got to that point, I located this exact thread and showed them what John Goodenough had to say about it, but they argued that we didn't actually see the conversation and that even if we had, John Goodenough wasn't qualified to answer the question as this was the 4th Edition of the game and rules had probably changed since Goodenough had anything to do with it...

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John Goodenough designed Revised 4th as well.  Actually he was on the staff up to the City expansion at which point he left FFG. 

 

Despite what FFG may have emailed your friends they are wrong in that you may not modify a dice roll after the dice have been rolled with a spell.  The attack sequence is CLEARLY defined. 

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They argue that since steps 3 and 4 are separated, that allows time to cast the spell BEFORE the rolls are tallied. This is how the Player vs Player Battle Sequence is indeed written, with scores not being tallied until Step 4.

I've argued with them and argued with them, and since I've 25 plus years experience playing the game and it was their first time ever playing, you can imagine my frustration.

Talisman is the winner's pick again this week, and on principle alone I can't participate in the game if played that way. I agreed to accept whatever ruling FFG gave on the matter, but I also expected they would have someone who actually knew the game available to answer the question.

And since I refuse to accept FFG's response, I'm the jerk...

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For the record, the Digital Edition allows you to change the Elementalist's stats after attack rolls are made in order to win a game.  This is probably a design oversight, but it currently can happen then.  It does not, however, let you cast Weakness after the attack rolls are made.

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DE is extremely helpful in matters like this. Once the combat is over its over, there is no take backsies, drinking a potion of strength or casting weakness on an enemy after the combat is over has no bearing on the completed battle.

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For the record, the Digital Edition allows you to change the Elementalist's stats after attack rolls are made in order to win a game.  This is probably a design oversight, but it currently can happen then.

The rules clearly state ANY ability or effects that affect a character’s Strength or Craft must be done before the roll. This probably has something to do with the coding and should be fixed.

We should not get in the habit of comparing the DE to the board game. They are two totally different animals and because of the restrictions of either are implemented in different ways...

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Can we please ignore whats allowed or not allowed in the DE.

Nope.
Well we should :).

 

 

 

 

For the record, the Digital Edition allows you to change the Elementalist's stats after attack rolls are made in order to win a game.  This is probably a design oversight, but it currently can happen then.

The rules clearly state ANY ability or effects that affect a character’s Strength or Craft must be done before the roll. This probably has something to do with the coding and should be fixed.

We should not get in the habit of comparing the DE to the board game. They are two totally different animals and because of the restrictions of either are implemented in different ways...

 

 

My intention for referencing the DE in this regard was to show that the DE does not allow Weakness to be cast after the dice are rolled.  The fact that it allows the Elementalist to change stats after the dice are rolled is (as I said, by the way) likely a programming oversight.

 

That is, when the put the rules in place for the DE, they established it that spells that affect the combat score cannot be cast after the dice have been rolled (excepting, of course, those spells which allow you to reroll the dice).

 

Of course the DE is not the end-all, be-all of Talisman.  But it is a helpful reference.  There are many instances where it gives us pause to think about the correct interpretation of the rules.  Sometimes the DE is right.  Other times it is not.  Either way, it is good to look at the DE as a point of reference.

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Osbo25... Being that any and all methods for convincing my friends of the way the game is intended to be played was something I was practically begging for, your addition about how the DE is played is certainly welcome as far as I'm concerned, and I actually purchased the DE specifically to record the scenario in action. After two play throughs, the situation never arose and I gave up playing because it just wasn't any fun to play against AI on my phone.

I'm hoping this thread and the other I posted will be enough to convince them. Considering they wrote to FFG and were told that the card was indeed played properly, I'm a little dubious about their willingness to reconsider, but I think they'll come around. I could totally see them arguing that since the DE seems to have several instances of bugging, it might not serve as a legitimate source, and apparently a coworker they spoke with who plays the DE told them that there was indeed an opportunity to cast the spell after the dice had been rolled.

In regard to FFG support completely getting the ruling wrong, is this something that can be rectified? Do they even care? My friend wrote a rather detailed account that in my opinion was a bit too much information, but nonetheless covered the entirety of the situation. The answer was two very short sentences, as though the guy couldn't be bothered to elaborate. And on top of that, the two sentences were wrong. I'm guessing I should never place a wager that is dependent on their Rules Clarification Department?

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Am I the Rules lawyer here?

I just don't want to devote 5 hours to game and then have it broken by something like this, which is exactly what happened. It was a crucial point in the game that essentially sealed the winner. Playing further in disagreement was impossible at that point.

Had it been ANY other game I would've just said ok and moved along, but that rule seems so essential to the understanding and very essence of the game (I envision a roll of dice as a physical battle occurring, and the ability to drink a potion or cast a spell that increases your fighting prowess AFTER you've swung your sword ruined that entire vision) and having played over a hundred times and then to be told by people who had never played that essentially I played the game incorrectly my whole life was just too tough a pill to swallow.

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Osbo25... Being that any and all methods for convincing my friends of the way the game is intended to be played was something I was practically begging for, your addition about how the DE is played is certainly welcome as far as I'm concerned, and I actually purchased the DE specifically to record the scenario in action. After two play throughs, the situation never arose and I gave up playing because it just wasn't any fun to play against AI on my phone.

I'm hoping this thread and the other I posted will be enough to convince them. Considering they wrote to FFG and were told that the card was indeed played properly, I'm a little dubious about their willingness to reconsider, but I think they'll come around. I could totally see them arguing that since the DE seems to have several instances of bugging, it might not serve as a legitimate source, and apparently a coworker they spoke with who plays the DE told them that there was indeed an opportunity to cast the spell after the dice had been rolled.

In regard to FFG support completely getting the ruling wrong, is this something that can be rectified? Do they even care? My friend wrote a rather detailed account that in my opinion was a bit too much information, but nonetheless covered the entirety of the situation. The answer was two very short sentences, as though the guy couldn't be bothered to elaborate. And on top of that, the two sentences were wrong. I'm guessing I should never place a wager that is dependent on their Rules Clarification Department?

Look at it this way:

You can prep for the battle all you want (e.g., casting spells, equipping armor and weapons, drinking potions, etc.).  But once the fight happens, you can't prep anymore.  And the fight happening is the die roll.  That's the two sides coming together and duking it out.  Once that happens you can't go back and affect your opponent's ability to fight.  Yes, Weakness can be cast, but it no longer affects the fight.  The fight is over.  Your opponent walks away with strength -3, but that has no bearing on a fight that happened in the past--albeit in the immediate past.

 

Your friends are wrong.  Weakness cannot be cast in such a way as to affect the outcome of a die that has already been cast.

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Osbo25... Being that any and all methods for convincing my friends of the way the game is intended to be played was something I was practically begging for, your addition about how the DE is played is certainly welcome as far as I'm concerned, and I actually purchased the DE specifically to record the scenario in action. After two play throughs, the situation never arose and I gave up playing because it just wasn't any fun to play against AI on my phone.

I'm hoping this thread and the other I posted will be enough to convince them. Considering they wrote to FFG and were told that the card was indeed played properly, I'm a little dubious about their willingness to reconsider, but I think they'll come around. I could totally see them arguing that since the DE seems to have several instances of bugging, it might not serve as a legitimate source, and apparently a coworker they spoke with who plays the DE told them that there was indeed an opportunity to cast the spell after the dice had been rolled.

In regard to FFG support completely getting the ruling wrong, is this something that can be rectified? Do they even care? My friend wrote a rather detailed account that in my opinion was a bit too much information, but nonetheless covered the entirety of the situation. The answer was two very short sentences, as though the guy couldn't be bothered to elaborate. And on top of that, the two sentences were wrong. I'm guessing I should never place a wager that is dependent on their Rules Clarification Department?

Look at it this way:

You can prep for the battle all you want (e.g., casting spells, equipping armor and weapons, drinking potions, etc.).  But once the fight happens, you can't prep anymore.  And the fight happening is the die roll.  That's the two sides coming together and duking it out.  Once that happens you can't go back and affect your opponent's ability to fight.  Yes, Weakness can be cast, but it no longer affects the fight.  The fight is over.  Your opponent walks away with strength -3, but that has no bearing on a fight that happened in the past--albeit in the immediate past.

 

Your friends are wrong.  Weakness cannot be cast in such a way as to affect the outcome of a die that has already been cast.

 

 

You absolutely nailed it on the head!

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For the record, the Digital Edition allows you to change the Elementalist's stats after attack rolls are made in order to win a game.  This is probably a design oversight, but it currently can happen then.  It does not, however, let you cast Weakness after the attack rolls are made.

I just quit a DE game where a guy did this with the Elementalist three times.  It's really annoying and needs to be fixed.

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For the record, the Digital Edition allows you to change the Elementalist's stats after attack rolls are made in order to win a game.  This is probably a design oversight, but it currently can happen then.  It does not, however, let you cast Weakness after the attack rolls are made.

I just quit a DE game where a guy did this with the Elementalist three times.  It's really annoying and needs to be fixed.

 

Yep agreed but there are a lot of rules that need fixing in the DE, hench why we should not use it as a rule justification.

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