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Suspicious dice shuffling and rolling ... cheating?

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If you're suspicious of how your opponent is rolling their dice, and they refuse to change how they roll, call the TO over and tell them you are suspicious of how your opponent is rolling their dice and have the TO decide whether or not it's okay. Your opponent is the one that ruined the friendly atmosphere by refusing your polite request to roll their dice normally, you're entitled to protect yourself, although the polite thing to do is to never outright accuse your opponent of cheating unless you have solid proof, since that accomplishes nothing.

 

IMO, if the dice are tumbling enough, then they can't be cheating. If the dice just land or just land and flop over once, then that is suspicious and I will point it out to my opponent that their dice aren't rolling enough. 

Honestly if someone politely told me change the way I roll my dice or they would call the TO over i would assume that person is an insane ****** bag. I would then politely ask him to change the way he sets dials, uses his range ruler, moves his ships, interacts with his damage deck. 

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If you're suspicious of how your opponent is rolling their dice, and they refuse to change how they roll, call the TO over and tell them you are suspicious of how your opponent is rolling their dice and have the TO decide whether or not it's okay. Your opponent is the one that ruined the friendly atmosphere by refusing your polite request to roll their dice normally, you're entitled to protect yourself, although the polite thing to do is to never outright accuse your opponent of cheating unless you have solid proof, since that accomplishes nothing.

 

IMO, if the dice are tumbling enough, then they can't be cheating. If the dice just land or just land and flop over once, then that is suspicious and I will point it out to my opponent that their dice aren't rolling enough. 

Honestly if someone politely told me change the way I roll my dice or they would call the TO over i would assume that person is an insane ****** bag. I would then politely ask him to change the way he sets dials, uses his range ruler, moves his ships, interacts with his damage deck. 

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If you're suspicious of how your opponent is rolling their dice, and they refuse to change how they roll, call the TO over and tell them you are suspicious of how your opponent is rolling their dice and have the TO decide whether or not it's okay. Your opponent is the one that ruined the friendly atmosphere by refusing your polite request to roll their dice normally, you're entitled to protect yourself, although the polite thing to do is to never outright accuse your opponent of cheating unless you have solid proof, since that accomplishes nothing.

 

IMO, if the dice are tumbling enough, then they can't be cheating. If the dice just land or just land and flop over once, then that is suspicious and I will point it out to my opponent that their dice aren't rolling enough. 

Honestly if someone politely told me change the way I roll my dice or they would call the TO over i would assume that person is an insane ****** bag. I would then politely ask him to change the way he sets dials, uses his range ruler, moves his ships, interacts with his damage deck. 

 

 

Because escalating the situations makes it better (confused)  <_<

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If you're suspicious of how your opponent is rolling their dice, and they refuse to change how they roll, call the TO over and tell them you are suspicious of how your opponent is rolling their dice and have the TO decide whether or not it's okay. Your opponent is the one that ruined the friendly atmosphere by refusing your polite request to roll their dice normally, you're entitled to protect yourself, although the polite thing to do is to never outright accuse your opponent of cheating unless you have solid proof, since that accomplishes nothing.

 

IMO, if the dice are tumbling enough, then they can't be cheating. If the dice just land or just land and flop over once, then that is suspicious and I will point it out to my opponent that their dice aren't rolling enough. 

Honestly if someone politely told me change the way I roll my dice or they would call the TO over i would assume that person is an insane ****** bag. I would then politely ask him to change the way he sets dials, uses his range ruler, moves his ships, interacts with his damage deck. 

 

 

Because escalating the situations makes it better (confused)  <_<

 

I try to treat my dice like I do my kids and bounce them against the table hard enough to where they submit to my will.   

Edited by AtomicFryingPan

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Ok here's one I haven't heard discussed. How does everyone treat dice that have fallen off the table when rolled? I'm sure this happened plenty of times to everyone but do you keep the result or reroll it? The way I do it is, if my opponent rolls the dice and 1 or 2 fall off the table and I'm unable to see the result we just reroll. If I'm able to see the result it stands as is. If it's someone I know then just keep the result no matter what. Just curious how others play that scenario. Since I've had a few games where individuals consistently seem to throw one or 2 dice that roll off the table and then reroll them. Again it's still random when they reroll them what they will get but still I wonder haha.

There is only one acceptable rule for dice rolling in this regard - any die that does not lie completely flat on the play surface is rerolled. Take subjectivity completely out of it.

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Yeah if I get a really good roll (say 3 hits/evades on 3 dice) I'll deliberately not roll the same 3 dice again on the next roll, as I feel I've 'used up' the luck and won't get that lucky a second time in a row on the same dice.

 

Is that considered 'suspicious'?

 

It's not suspicious so much as very poor statistical reasoning.  Since dice are random, no throw has any influence on the outcome of subsequent throws, with fair dice anyway.  But, if you have dice that are not machined perfectly or whatever and favor hits or evades, the idea that those dice are "due" for failure is actually going to hurt you, because you'll be throwing dice that aren't as likely to land on successes.  So, at best, it's doing nothing, and at worst, it's hurting you.

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Ok here's one I haven't heard discussed. How does everyone treat dice that have fallen off the table when rolled? I'm sure this happened plenty of times to everyone but do you keep the result or reroll it? The way I do it is, if my opponent rolls the dice and 1 or 2 fall off the table and I'm unable to see the result we just reroll. If I'm able to see the result it stands as is. If it's someone I know then just keep the result no matter what. Just curious how others play that scenario. Since I've had a few games where individuals consistently seem to throw one or 2 dice that roll off the table and then reroll them. Again it's still random when they reroll them what they will get but still I wonder haha.

There is only one acceptable rule for dice rolling in this regard - any die that does not lie completely flat on the play surface is rerolled. Take subjectivity completely out of it.

 

 

That's always been my policy.  If it falls off the table, reroll it.  Playing at home, I have a round table with a 3x3 play mat on top of it, and the outer rim (puns) of the table is wooden, with indents for drink holders, chip/card holders, etc.  If the dice land off the felt table cover or play mat and into the wooden rim, I say it's a reroll.  This is because the die is usually getting wedged halfway between results against focus tokens/other ships/pilot cards/what have you.  

 

Just like beer pong, you gotta establish house rules before starting a match. 

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Ok here's one I haven't heard discussed. How does everyone treat dice that have fallen off the table when rolled? I'm sure this happened plenty of times to everyone but do you keep the result or reroll it? The way I do it is, if my opponent rolls the dice and 1 or 2 fall off the table and I'm unable to see the result we just reroll. If I'm able to see the result it stands as is. If it's someone I know then just keep the result no matter what. Just curious how others play that scenario. Since I've had a few games where individuals consistently seem to throw one or 2 dice that roll off the table and then reroll them. Again it's still random when they reroll them what they will get but still I wonder haha.

There is only one acceptable rule for dice rolling in this regard - any die that does not lie completely flat on the play surface is rerolled. Take subjectivity completely out of it.

 

That's always been my policy.  If it falls off the table, reroll it.  Playing at home, I have a round table with a 3x3 play mat on top of it, and the outer rim (puns) of the table is wooden, with indents for drink holders, chip/card holders, etc.  If the dice land off the felt table cover or play mat and into the wooden rim, I say it's a reroll.  This is because the die is usually getting wedged halfway between results against focus tokens/other ships/pilot cards/what have you.  

 

Just like beer pong, you gotta establish house rules before starting a match.

In my house, if we can both see the die before anyone can touch it, we let it stand where it lands. If we're playing Betrayal at House on the Hill, we decide to reroll depending on how good/bad it is for the team. If we're playing cards against humanity with my mother, we all look at her horrified and let her take the filthy, filthy card she just played.

Seriously, my mom has had decades to refine her dirty freaking mind.

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Ok here's one I haven't heard discussed. How does everyone treat dice that have fallen off the table when rolled? I'm sure this happened plenty of times to everyone but do you keep the result or reroll it? The way I do it is, if my opponent rolls the dice and 1 or 2 fall off the table and I'm unable to see the result we just reroll. If I'm able to see the result it stands as is. If it's someone I know then just keep the result no matter what. Just curious how others play that scenario. Since I've had a few games where individuals consistently seem to throw one or 2 dice that roll off the table and then reroll them. Again it's still random when they reroll them what they will get but still I wonder haha.

There is only one acceptable rule for dice rolling in this regard - any die that does not lie completely flat on the play surface is rerolled. Take subjectivity completely out of it.

 

 

That's always been my policy.  If it falls off the table, reroll it.  Playing at home, I have a round table with a 3x3 play mat on top of it, and the outer rim (puns) of the table is wooden, with indents for drink holders, chip/card holders, etc.  If the dice land off the felt table cover or play mat and into the wooden rim, I say it's a reroll.  This is because the die is usually getting wedged halfway between results against focus tokens/other ships/pilot cards/what have you.  

 

Just like beer pong, you gotta establish house rules before starting a match.

 

In my house, if we can both see the die before anyone can touch it, we let it stand where it lands. If we're playing Betrayal at House on the Hill, we decide to reroll depending on how good/bad it is for the team. If we're playing cards against humanity with my mother, we all look at her horrified and let her take the filthy, filthy card she just played.

Seriously, my mom has had decades to refine her dirty freaking mind.

 

 

Yikes.

 

Yes, the rules tend to change for different games. For example, I just got XCOM the board game (I played the ever-living sh*t out of Enemy Unknown on PC), which is collaborative, and if we get a fortuitous roll, no matter where it lands, we keep it.  It's hard enough to win that game as it is, so any lucky bounce, we keep.

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I think we need an FAQ ruling on tournament legal ways to roll dice.

 

'The rolling player must have his or her hand closed during the 'shake phase' of the dice roll.  There is a 3 shake minimum at all FFG premiere events but only a 2 shake minimum at casual events.  The rolling player must drop the dice from a minimum height of 5" from the table surface but no more than 10" from the table surface.  Dice that end their movement with any portion of their faces off of the play area are considered to have fled the battlefield and are destroyed.'

Edited by KommanderKeldoth

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I think we need an FAQ ruling on tournament legal ways to roll dice.

 

'The rolling player must have his or her hand closed during the 'shake phase' of the dice roll.  There is a 3 shake minimum at all FFG premiere events but only a 2 shake minimum at casual events.  The rolling player must drop the dice from a minimum height of 5" from the table surface but no more than 10" from the table surface.  Dice that end their movement with any portion of their faces off of the play area are considered to have fled the battlefield and are destroyed.'

You know what they say more than three shakes and you're...

 

Oh wait that's probably not topically appropriate. :P:lol:

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I think we need an FAQ ruling on tournament legal ways to roll dice.

 

'The rolling player must have his or her hand closed during the 'shake phase' of the dice roll.  There is a 3 shake minimum at all FFG premiere events but only a 2 shake minimum at casual events.  The rolling player must drop the dice from a minimum height of 5" from the table surface but no more than 10" from the table surface.  Dice that end their movement with any portion of their faces off of the play area are considered to have fled the battlefield and are destroyed.'

 

More something like that:

 

"It is mandatory to use only Dice cups for dice rolling. Dice rolling with bare hands is strictly forbidden...! For tournament play only FFG licensed dice cups are allowed."

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It is not about trying to influence the dice to roll a 6 (or 3 evades etc). It is more about for example following scenario:

 

The player has 3 evade dice and his ship has a focus token. He wants his dice result to be evenly distributed (to have for example at least one evade and one focus result, to avoid getting all the three hits). So he tries to have different symbol on the dice when in his hand. Then, after the "hand movement" he speculates that he will consequently get mixed results. Of course, you cannot manipulate the exact result, but in my opinion you get an enhanced probability to roll a mixed result (and survive) with that behaviour.

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not read the whole thread (as some one said... its a repeat) but just like to ask what would people think about my OCD...

 

I like to put the dice in neat rows to the left of my table edge with the best result up (ie the 6 on a D6 or Crit etc) and once rolled and my opponent has seen the rolls back to their rows they go

 

:P

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I think there is a pretty obvious line between using non-physical means (ie lucky hats) to influence an abstract entity ("luck") and actually trying to remove randomness by physically manipulating dice to move in predictable ways.

 

It only matters that the player is physically making the attempt, because saying that "it's only cheating if it succeeds" puts the responsibility to "prove it works" (or not) on the wrong player.

 

That is an excellent point. I haven't personally seen any questionable die rolling in X-Wing, but if it is even possible that there is some influence on the outcome, they why should the player seeking complete randomization be required to show that the die setter/dropper/setter/whatever is in the wrong?

Edited by Rapture

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It is not about trying to influence the dice to roll a 6 (or 3 evades etc). It is more about for example following scenario:

 

The player has 3 evade dice and his ship has a focus token. He wants his dice result to be evenly distributed (to have for example at least one evade and one focus result, to avoid getting all the three hits). So he tries to have different symbol on the dice when in his hand. Then, after the "hand movement" he speculates that he will consequently get mixed results. Of course, you cannot manipulate the exact result, but in my opinion you get an enhanced probability to roll a mixed result (and survive) with that behaviour.

Your opinion has no scientific merit to it.  Yes people have been caught cheating with the app, but physical dice cheats would have to be much more elaborate.  The dice would have to be physically altered to influence the outcome of the roll.  Because of all the variables involved in a die roll (angle thrown, speed, friction, hardness of table, etc.) it is impossible to reliably control the outcome of the die roll.

If your opponent's dice seem to hot, check them.  IF they are not physically altered then no cheating is going on.

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The attempt itself to physically manipulate the outcome is cheating.

Other than the fact that you can't actually do that, you might actually have a point. But you can't, so you don't.

Dice rolling methods have as much effect as a lucky hat, it's nothing more than superstition. If you want to call the TO over because someone is engaged in superstition feel free. But if I were the TO, I'd be giving you the warning, not the other guy.

why should the player seeking complete randomization be required to show that the die setter/dropper/setter/whatever is in the wrong?

Because if you're going to accuse someone of cheating, you better have something to back up that claim.

Edited by VanorDM

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Can't we all just agree that if someone is actually rolling (the dice change angle in the air and/or bounce when they hit the table or rolling surface) the appropriate number and category of unaltered dice they are not cheating?

 

I think the accusations of cheating only occur if you don't think the person is actually "rolling" the dice or the dice have been altered.

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The attempt itself to physically manipulate the outcome is cheating.

Other than the fact that you can't actually do that, you might actually have a point. But you can't, so you don't.

 

 

But that is only true if the dice are truly rolled, such that they bounce and tumble.  If, for example, a player simply drops the dice from three inches, after setting the faces, there is likely to be an effect.

 

Again, the attempt itself is cheating.  It isn't success that defines cheating, and your attempt to define it as such places the onus on the wrong player to decide whether the dice-facing and drop from three inches is high enough.  The onus is -- and should be -- on the player attempting to cheat.

 

 
Because if you're going to accuse someone of cheating, you better have something to back up that claim.

 

The claim is that the player is attempting to manipulate the dice, and the other player should not have to be able to prove whether facing the dice and rolling from three inches is completely ineffective at doing so.

 

Again, cheating is not defined by its success.  The idea that corking a bat isn't cheating if the batter strikes out, or even if the bat isn't used, is bizarre.

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The attempt itself to physically manipulate the outcome is cheating.

Other than the fact that you can't actually do that, you might actually have a point. But you can't, so you don't.

Dice rolling methods have as much effect as a lucky hat, it's nothing more than superstition. If you want to call the TO over because someone is engaged in superstition feel free. But if I were the TO, I'd be giving you the warning, not the other guy.

why should the player seeking complete randomization be required to show that the die setter/dropper/setter/whatever is in the wrong?

Because if you're going to accuse someone of cheating, you better have something to back up that claim.

 

 

You're missing the point here. As quoted in the original example if one person is staring at the faces of the dice while rolling it then that could well be interpreted as the intent  to cheat. Whether or not it is effective is irrilvent as the intent is the only thing that matters, the intent to fiddle the scores to improve the odds no don't tell me about them.

 

And indeed, there is nothing wrong with arranging dice into a nice pile while they are not in your hands. But the moment those dice enter that persons hands every intent should be arranged to randomise them. The hand doesn't have to be closed for this, but they simply have to roll without attempting to fix any of the faces. It's a matter of sportsmanship more then anything else.

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But that is only true if the dice are truly rolled, such that they bounce and tumble.

Well yes of course. But that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about people who set the dice so all <crits> are face up then roll them as normal. Thinking that doing so will increase their chance at getting more <crit> results.

 

The onus is -- and should be -- on the player attempting to cheat.

No, the onus is on the TO in that case. If someone is effectively setting the dice on the table, that's not at all the same thing as rolling the dice.

 

 

Again, cheating is not defined by its success.

No it's defined by the possibility of actually effecting the outcome. If something has no chance of having a real effect, something all these dice rolling techniques share, then it's no more cheating than a lucky hat.

 

But once again, we agree that setting the dice on the table isn't the same thing as rolling them.

 

But the moment those dice enter that persons hands every intent should be arranged to randomise them.

No, the intent should be to get the best roll you can, while actually rolling them. No one wants really random dice, they want lucky or hot dice, that all roll <evades> or <crits> when you roll them.

If you base cheating on nothing more than intent, then if I honestly believe my hat is lucky, then I'm cheating because my intent in wearing it is the same as my intent when I pick up my dice, to get the best roll possible.

Edited by VanorDM

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Your hat is irrivlent to the game, the dice are. Dice can be hot or cold and while there is nothing wrong with wanting to have lucky dice, actively staring at them is not good sportsmanship. A hat meanwhile subjectly can't influence a game and there isn't anything wrong with wanting to wear a particlar garment as a hat is a subject seperate from the game, a outside factor. For me the two subject matters are complelely different. Staring at a dice is intending to cheat, wearing a hat isn't. I don't understand how the question at hand can be interpreted in any other way.

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