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MajorJuggler

2015 Regionals Results

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I think people keep using the word diverse, either for, or against. I'm not sure everyone is using that word the same way.

 

I think the Meta is diverse when the exact same list isn't used. So, even though a 'fat turret' might make up ~%50 of the 'top' lists out there, there's a lot of 'diversity' in those Fat Turrets. I don't think Han+Talas is the same as Chireneau+Fel or Dash+Corran - that there alone is diversity.

I would say that the Meta is diverse in that if you consider INDIVIDUAL lists, not just archetypes, the options available in the Top 8 is MILES AND MILES better than it was before. There's somewhere between 16 and 20 different winning lists. That's a lot, and I'd consider that Diverse.

 

Someone above said that there's only like 4 archetypes. I think that's a poor understanding of diversity. Of course there are only a few archetypes, but inside those archetypes is where the diversity is found. At this point, people are just arguing out of what seems like crankiness against the percieved 'fat turret problem.' We get it, some people aren't happy about a lot of Fat Turrets being flown out there. Stop claiming that things aren't becoming more diverse because you're cranky and look at the data objectively. For goodness sakes - an EXX list just won a regional!

 

Jacob

Edited by jkokura

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You could always look at Magic when trying to explain diversity. There are 4 main archetypes in Magic. Aggro, Midrange, Control, and then debateably combo (usually actualy a variation of one of the three). Magic the Gathering is a very diverse game and so is X-Wing. Most of those saying otherwise in my experience have been people who have not spent a lot of time playing in organized play programs or those who don't really understand what a Meta is. No offense intended if this is not the case as that has been my experience.

Edited by GameCafe

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I think the fact that I was able to take a list nobody had ever seen before to a major regional tournament and place second, playing 10 rounds of X-Wing against 9 different people with 9 different lists attests to the fact that the game is very diverse in my area, That is the kicker though, different regions have different metas, and that is just something you have to either accept or change. People don't fly 2 ship lists at my gaming club because they aren't fun and they often lose. 

 

One of the hardest matchups I've had with my list was against a 4 A-Wing list. Super random, but those little guys were tough to get guns on and bring down! I love the diversity of ships and upgrades in the game right now because creative people are finding fun things to fly that work for them.

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I think people keep using the word diverse, either for, or against. I'm not sure everyone is using that word the same way.

So, what you're saying is

http://i.imgur.com/zCiblLL.gif

Bother. How do you post gifs on here?

 

 

Dunno on the Gif question, but yeah, that's exactly what I thought as I read through the last couple pages. So I posted my definition of diverse, maybe it will help bring clarity. I don't think people all think of diversity the same way.

 

Jacob

Edited by jkokura

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I think people keep using the word diverse, either for, or against. I'm not sure everyone is using that word the same way.

Agree. I'm pretty sure people will have different requirements on what it takes to have a diverse meta.

I think the Meta is diverse when the exact same list isn't used. So, even though a 'fat turret' might make up ~%50 of the 'top' lists out there, there's a lot of 'diversity' in those Fat Turrets. I don't think Han+Talas is the same as Chireneau+Fel or Dash+Corran - that there alone is diversity.

I would say that the Meta is diverse in that if you consider INDIVIDUAL lists, not just archetypes, the options available in the Top 8 is MILES AND MILES better than it was before. There's somewhere between 16 and 20 different winning lists. That's a lot, and I'd consider that Diverse.

I agree that the builds you listed are different and will play somewhat different. However, they are all anchored by a fat turret. I disagree that this is indicative of diversity.

Someone above said that there's only like 4 archetypes. I think that's a poor understanding of diversity. Of course there are only a few archetypes, but inside those archetypes is where the diversity is found. At this point, people are just arguing out of what seems like crankiness against the percieved 'fat turret problem.' We get it, some people aren't happy about a lot of Fat Turrets being flown out there. Stop claiming that things aren't becoming more diverse because you're cranky and look at the data objectively. For goodness sakes - an EXX list just won a regional!

Jacob

I'm indifferent to the number of fat turrets, in fact I prefer them to swarms. Although I do understand why some think they are a problem. Like I said, they do seem over represented in the top 8.

Which brings me to. I mentioned a lack of diversity in the meta, when I primarily spoke of the top 8. I should probably rephrase my statement to be there is a lack of diversity in the top 8. There is very likely a greater diversity in the meta as a whole.

As far as the EXX goes, is that an outlying flyer or the beginning of a new trend? Smart money is on the former, but only time will tell.

Edited by Starbane

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I disagree that having a lot of different fat turrets is considered diverse.  It's diversity of fat turrets, but still lots of fat turrets.  I want to see a wide variety of different ships in the Top 8, not just different builds of YT's and Decimators.  Different builds of the same few ships is not really that diverse. 

 

It's getting better, but still not fully there yet. 

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Swedish results are up on List Juggler.

 

Fat Han won, without C-3P0.

 

Uppsala, Sweden

June 27, 2015
Grand

Attendance: 40

List Juggler: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=526

  • Winner: Han Solo + Predator + Millennium Falcon + Luke Skywalker + Chewbacca; 3x Tala Squadron Pilot
  • 2nd place: Whisper + Veteran Instincts + Advanced Sensors + Advanced Cloaking Device; Soontir Fel + Push the Limit + Autothrusters; Turr Phennir + Veteran Instincts + Autothrusters
  • Top 4: Corran Horn + Veteran Instincts + R2-D2 + Fire-Control System; Keyan Farlander + Stay on Target + Advanced Sensors; Blue Squadron Pilot + Fire-Control System
  • Top 4: Tycho Celchu + Push the Limit + Daredevil + Proton Rockets + Experimental Interface + awing Test Pilot; Jake Farrell + Veteran Instincts + Push the Limit + Proton Rockets + Stealth Device + awing Test Pilot; Green Squadron Pilot + Push the Limit + Stealth Device + Ion Pulse Missiles
  • Top 8: IG-88B + IG-2000 + Mangler Cannon + Lone Wolf + Advanced Sensors + Inertial Dampeners + Autothrusters; IG-88C + IG-2000 + Heavy Laser Cannon + Predator + Advanced Sensors + Inertial Dampeners + Autothrusters
  • Top 8: Whisper + Veteran Instincts + Advanced Cloaking Device + Fire-Control System + Recon Specialist; Soontir Fel + Push the Limit + Autothrusters; Omicron Group Pilot + Darth Vader
  • Top 8: Prince Xizor + Veteran Instincts + Autothrusters + Advanced Sensors + Virago; Guri + Predator + Autothrusters; Black Sun Enforcer
  • Top 8: Chewbacca + Lone Wolf + Millennium Falcon + C-3PO + Gunner; Leebo + Mangler Cannon + Determination + Outrider + Recon Specialist
Edited by MajorJuggler

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There's a cool write-up for that A-wing list in the Reports forum. I still don't quite understand how you get consistent victories with 3 2-dice attacks, but he clearly did. I guess Protons Rockets go a long way.

They do. Unless you're MegaSilver and manage to only take the shield off a HWK with [hit][hit][hit][crit][crit]. :P

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There's a cool write-up for that A-wing list in the Reports forum. I still don't quite understand how you get consistent victories with 3 2-dice attacks, but he clearly did. I guess Protons Rockets go a long way.

They do. Unless you're MegaSilver and manage to only take the shield off a HWK with [hit][hit][hit][crit][crit]. :P
how does that even happen?

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There's a cool write-up for that A-wing list in the Reports forum. I still don't quite understand how you get consistent victories with 3 2-dice attacks, but he clearly did. I guess Protons Rockets go a long way.

They do. Unless you're MegaSilver and manage to only take the shield off a HWK with [hit][hit][hit][crit][crit]. :P
how does that even happen?

 

 The turkey rolled 2 natural evades, and had Chewy on board the HWK. Jake Ferral wasn't happy with that result.

Edited by MegaSilver

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Internet denizens I have a crowd sourcing task for you!

 

The TO at Wisconsin Regionals has already uploaded the results to List Juggler, but there were a total of 104 lists, so he did not upload the lists:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=525

 

However, the player squad sheets have been scanned and can be downloaded here:

http://knizia.boardgamebarrister.com/images/SquadLists20150627.zip

 

 

So, whoever wants to help, download the zip, and start manually loading the lists in List Juggler!

I've just entered ~40 lists, because Nathan's result is really awesome, 100:25 every match, including vs 3 turrets lists.

BTW WTF is this?

snapshot1.png

I also changed Josh Stottlemyer's list - he didn't fly 4BZ.

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Which brings me to. I mentioned a lack of diversity in the meta, when I primarily spoke of the top 8. I should probably rephrase my statement to be there is a lack of diversity in the top 8. There is very likely a greater diversity in the meta as a whole.

As far as the EXX goes, is that an outlying flyer or the beginning of a new trend? Smart money is on the former, but only time will tell.

 

 

 

I disagree that having a lot of different fat turrets is considered diverse.  It's diversity of fat turrets, but still lots of fat turrets.  I want to see a wide variety of different ships in the Top 8, not just different builds of YT's and Decimators.  Different builds of the same few ships is not really that diverse. 

 

It's getting better, but still not fully there yet. 

 

So what would make you guys happy and stop claiming that this is diverse? An equal representation of all ships available? Or just that a specific build type isn't as common as it is now? What if in the process of adding new ships in the next waves we see the meta swing so that Fat Turrets are NEVER played, but another type of list makes up ~%50 of winning lists? Is that still not diverse?

 

Consider these things:

- I believe every ship has been represented in the top 8. Admittedly, some have been seldom there, or perhaps outliers, but not all ships are equally popular

- I believe ~%70 of ships have been represented at the final table. I could be slightly off on that percentage as I didn't calculate it exactly, but I have been keeping track

- I believe more different ships have won Regionals this year than any year previous. Admittedly we have access to more ships this year than before, but surprisingly more of the ships that weren't used in previous years that were available are winning.

 

I get that for at least you two, and some more people probably agree with you, that it's not diverse enough. I'm not sure how you define diversity, but it seems like it's about equal representation not about the inclusion becoming the evidence. I would disagree that different turreted ships are all the same - the 3 that we have access to now alone are different ships and are making up fairly even distribution of the 'fat PWT' lists so that itself is almost the equal representation diversity that some people recognize as true diversity (perhaps you).

 

The truth is, almost any ship can be included in a list and has the chance to win. It's been shown, you can see it coming down the pipe that PWT ships will not be the 'meta' in the future, and if it's not diverse already, the meta is both diversifying and is more diverse now than it ever has been.

 

Jacob

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