Question about Activating Force Powers

[Jereru 171]

Thx. I guess I was fearing I was right

[Greenspectre 7]

I’m needing clarification on Force Powers use/activation, specifically for the Sense tree.  A Player Character (PC) with a Force Rating (FR) of One has purchased the Sense base and the four Sense upgrades branches on the left side of that FP tree (F&D beta pg. 215):

 

• SENSE BASIC POWER: The Force user can sense the Force interacting with the world around him.
• The user may spend a force pip to sense all living things within short range (including sentient and non-sentient beings).
• The user may spend force pip to sense the current emotional state of one living target with whom he is engaged.

1.       Control – Ongoing effect: Commit Force Die. Once per round, when an attack targets the Force user, he upgrades the difficulty of the pool once.

2.       Duration-Sense’s ongoing effects may be triggered one additional time per round.

3.       Strength - When using Sense’s ongoing effects, upgrade the pool twice, instead of once

4.       Control-- Ongoing effect: Commit Force Die. Once per round, when the Force user makes a combat check, he upgrades the ability of that check once..

 

I have two explanations from different players on how this works and would like to know which the correct way is:

 

• Version 1 says that a Force Powers Check is needed to activate the SENSE BASIC POWER.  If this is successful then the character only need to commit a Force Die to activate any one of the two “Control—Ongoing” effects.  (In my PC’s case as they only have a FR of 1, then they can only commit/activate 1 of these upgrades.)
• If this is the correct way- does it require an action to activate the SENSE BASIC POWER and then another action to activate each of the Control Upgrades?  I assume that the Duration and Strength are incidentals and would not require an action nor pip to activate.

 

• Verson 2 argues that no Force Powers Check is needed as the SENSE BASIC POWER does not need to get activated in order to use either of the CONTROL-Ongoing upgrades, nor the Duration and Strength (as these 2 are incidentals to the Control upgrade).  Just the commitment of sufficient Force Die to activate the Control upgrades. 
• If this version is correct then as no SENSE BASIC POWER needs to get activated, no action is needed.  But I’ve read that a separate action is required to commit/activate each Control-ongoing effect.  Is this action only done once and remains in effect until the PC decides to commit/use a different Control (in the case of a PC that only has 1 Force Rating Die available to commit)?  

I'm going with Version 2, what is the correct way?

[EldritchFire 499]

Just because the Sense basic power isn't being used, you're still using the Sense power. Per page 147 activating a Force power is still an action. So the answer, really, is a mix of both.

 

You don't need to activate the base power to use the power, but using the power is still an action.

 

-EF

[whafrog 10,384]

Version 2.  You do not need to active the basic power (or duration/strength) to commit dice.  However, committing dice still takes an action.

[Greenspectre 7]

Version 2.  You do not need to active the basic power (or duration/strength) to commit dice.  However, committing dice still takes an action.

Thanks.  

[Greenspectre 7]

Just because the Sense basic power isn't being used, you're still using the Sense power. Per page 147 activating a Force power is still an action. So the answer, really, is a mix of both.

 

You don't need to activate the base power to use the power, but using the power is still an action.

 

-EF

Thanks for the clarification.

[Greenspectre 7]

 

Just because the Sense basic power isn't being used, you're still using the Sense power. Per page 147 activating a Force power is still an action. So the answer, really, is a mix of both.

 

You don't need to activate the base power to use the power, but using the power is still an action.

 

-EF

Thanks for the clarification.

 

 

 

Question not completely settled....

 

Disagreement continues in that the case is being argued that the SENSE Basic power "The force user can sense the force interacting with the world around them..." requires this base power to be activated with a force point in order to then be able to use the upgrades which themselves only require the commitment of a Force Rating Die.  The use of any of the CONTROL upgrades are through using the force to sense/pre-sense what an opponent will do (in and attack or in a defense) thus the Base Sense power has to be activated which in itself requires a force pip to be used.  

[Lathrop 838]

Question not completely settled....

 

Disagreement continues in that the case is being argued that the SENSE Basic power "The force user can sense the force interacting with the world around them..." requires this base power to be activated with a force point in order to then be able to use the upgrades which themselves only require the commitment of a Force Rating Die.  The use of any of the CONTROL upgrades are through using the force to sense/pre-sense what an opponent will do (in and attack or in a defense) thus the Base Sense power has to be activated which in itself requires a force pip to be used.  

 

 

Here's the thing though. They're completely different aspects of the Sense power, which is why you only do one (spend points and use the base power to read thoughts, emotional states, or get an idea of how many living things are around them) or the other (commit to anticipate incoming danger or commit to anticipate other's actions and know where to target).

 

Narratively, they most definitely are a bit similar, which is why they're grouped in the same power, but they're different aspects, which is why they're split up and not directly connected. Influence, Enhance, and Foresee are also examples of separation where they all derive from the same basic type of power, but their use is different and so they're not used in the same way. In Sense's case, committing of the dice is anticipation of things around the user in general as they're happening. Using the power to directly read thoughts can definitely provide some useful insights to what a person will plan to do and can give the player and the group useful information (and can give definitely provide mechanical benefits), but it's not the same as your spidey-sense telling you a stray blaster bolt is heading towards the back of your head. You're not using Sense's commit to constantly read and take in every single enemy's thoughts.

 

If they still don't get it, and telling them that it just isn't supported in t he rules, try to show it to them like this: does it make sense that when using Enhance, that you can Commit a Force Die to increase your Agility Characteristic, when you've just used it to enhance a Brawl roll? Or ask them if it doesn't seem more than a bit over-powered that you can use Enhance to use all your Force Dice to boost a roll (and be able to perform that action in the first place) and then you get to Commit a Force Die to increase your characteristic after that Action has finished.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Lathrop

[whafrog 10,384]

Question not completely settled....

 

Disagreement continues in that the case is being argued that the SENSE Basic power "The force user can sense the force interacting with the world around them..." requires this base power to be activated with a force point in order to then be able to use the upgrades which themselves only require the commitment of a Force Rating Die.  The use of any of the CONTROL upgrades are through using the force to sense/pre-sense what an opponent will do (in and attack or in a defense) thus the Base Sense power has to be activated which in itself requires a force pip to be used.  

 

Somebody is overthinking it, it says the opposite in the rules.  From EotE, page 279, under Ongoing Effects:

 

"To activate an ongoing effect, the Force sensitive character does not need to spend Force points.  Instead, he must commit a number of Force dice..."

 

So you don't need a pip to commit.

 

If you need a rationale, it might be that once you take the upgrade, by committing you are "turning on your sensitivity" for a specific purpose.  You can't then use the Force die for anything else while it's committed, so that's the sacrifice.

[Greenspectre 7]

 

Question not completely settled....

 

Disagreement continues in that the case is being argued that the SENSE Basic power "The force user can sense the force interacting with the world around them..." requires this base power to be activated with a force point in order to then be able to use the upgrades which themselves only require the commitment of a Force Rating Die.  The use of any of the CONTROL upgrades are through using the force to sense/pre-sense what an opponent will do (in and attack or in a defense) thus the Base Sense power has to be activated which in itself requires a force pip to be used.  

 

Somebody is overthinking it, it says the opposite in the rules.  From EotE, page 279, under Ongoing Effects:

 

"To activate an ongoing effect, the Force sensitive character does not need to spend Force points.  Instead, he must commit a number of Force dice..."

 

So you don't need a pip to commit.

 

If you need a rationale, it might be that once you take the upgrade, by committing you are "turning on your sensitivity" for a specific purpose.  You can't then use the Force die for anything else while it's committed, so that's the sacrifice.

 

next question regarding Sense and upgrades to it....

 

Is there any instance of ongoing use of these upgrades and/or multiple uses of the Duration and/or Magnitude casing strain?

[whafrog 10,384]

I don't see how you could use Magnitude.  The ongoing effects are for the user, not "targets".

You can't "trigger" Duration, it just adds to a previous upgrade's frequency.

 

I'll admit I'm a bit confused by the Duration and Strength and the last Control option on the left.  Duration and Strength apply to "Sense's ongoing effects", which presumably would include the last Control option...so that would mean by the time you get that last Control option, you will be able to use it twice per round, with two upgrades.

 

...unless this is in the errata...?

[Lathrop 838]

next question regarding Sense and upgrades to it....

 

Is there any instance of ongoing use of these upgrades and/or multiple uses of the Duration and/or Magnitude casing strain?

 

 

Per the rules, no, not for any of the normal Commit effects. I've seen some thought of giving Conflict for constant use of Sense, since you're essentially always battle ready, and that can be seen as fear, which I can agree with as long as the place the PCs are going into isn't an obviously dangerous location.

 

 

I don't see how you could use Magnitude.  The ongoing effects are for the user, not "targets".

You can't "trigger" Duration, it just adds to a previous upgrade's frequency.

 

I'll admit I'm a bit confused by the Duration and Strength and the last Control option on the left.  Duration and Strength apply to "Sense's ongoing effects", which presumably would include the last Control option...so that would mean by the time you get that last Control option, you will be able to use it twice per round, with two upgrades.

 

...unless this is in the errata...?

 

That's how it's been since EotE. It's been mostly pointless to allow upgrades to two attacks a turn up until FaD where you've got the potential for multiple attacks with Protect/Unleash, Force Assault and The Force is My Ally.

[Greenspectre 7]

I don't see how you could use Magnitude.  The ongoing effects are for the user, not "targets".

You can't "trigger" Duration, it just adds to a previous upgrade's frequency.

 

I'll admit I'm a bit confused by the Duration and Strength and the last Control option on the left.  Duration and Strength apply to "Sense's ongoing effects", which presumably would include the last Control option...so that would mean by the time you get that last Control option, you will be able to use it twice per round, with two upgrades.

 

...unless this is in the errata...?

sorry, i meant "strength" instead of "magnitude".  But yes, if you have both duration and strength powers then each round you can apply the specific control power two times and upgrade the dice twice instead of just the once.  At least that's my take.

 

To make it even more interesting,  If i have a FR of 2 does this mean I can effectively upgrade the die twice and then with the use of the duration and strength make it upgrade 4 die vs 4 attacks?

Edited May 13, 2015 by Greenspectre

[Lathrop 838]

To make it even more interesting,  If i have a FR of 2 does this mean I can effectively upgrade the die twice and then with the use of the duration and strength make it upgrade 4 die vs 4 attacks?

 

No, you can only commit to a specific effect once. From the final paragraph of the Committing Force Dice section:

 

 

A character may end an ongoing effect at the end of any of his subsequent turns as an incidental. While an ongoing effect is active, the character may not activate that specific ongoing effect again (the character cannot be benefiting from two “copies” of the same ongoing effect).

Edited May 13, 2015 by Lathrop

[Greenspectre 7]

 

To make it even more interesting,  If i have a FR of 2 does this mean I can effectively upgrade the die twice and then with the use of the duration and strength make it upgrade 4 die vs 4 attacks?

 

No, you can only commit to a specific effect once. From the final paragraph of the Committing Force Dice section:

 

 

A character may end an ongoing effect at the end of any of his subsequent turns as an incidental. While an ongoing effect is active, the character may not activate that specific ongoing effect again (the character cannot be benefiting from two “copies” of the same ongoing effect).

 

 

 

I interpret that that to mean that if I have a FR already committed and a power active, I can't commit another FD to it.  But what about commiting 2 Force Die right off the bat?   In this case I could argue that I'm not making two copies, but just one beefed up copy.

[whafrog 10,384]

No.

[Lathrop 838]

I interpret that that to mean that if I have a FR already committed and a power active, I can't commit another FD to it.  But what about commiting 2 Force Die right off the bat?   In this case I could argue that I'm not making two copies, but just one beefed up copy.

 

 

You can't for a few reasons. One, the action to Commit to Sense's upgrades is specifically to Commit a single Force die to gain a specific effect. This means that attempt to Commit 2 is impossible, because not only do the upgrades not support it, but committing to activate that effect takes a single action.

 

The only Commit action that specifically allows you to commit more than one die to increase its effect is the Control upgrade in Misdirect, where it specifically calls out that you can commit one or more to get an increasing effect. And in the instance of Misdirect, you would not be creating two copies of the effect, you would just be increasing the effect if you spent another turn committing more dice to it.

[Jereru 171]

Improved Field Commander may grant a free action also, which could be used to attack and thus consume another use of the "upgrade attack" power.
Also, talents such as Intuitive Evasion or Force Protection allow you to commit Force Dice while breaking some of the rules, like committing multiple dice and doing it as a Maneuver.

[Max Silverlight 0]

Hello all I am Max,

 

I have been playing Edge of the empire since release, and age of the rebellion for a while now, as well as beta testing and perusing the rule book for Force and Destiny. Having run my own campaign, and I play in others games. I find that the tree for a force power when referring to sense is or any power for the matter. Requires a cost. I find when looking at the Force Sense tree and power. The community, and some game masters may not see this. Logically looking at the way it is written and the way powers are set up in F&D, it is to not be this encompassing over powered situation. We can draw back from other rule books as well, that outline the limitations of powers. I am going to state scenes from movies since this is what FFG is trying to pursuit with this branch of RPG.

 

To get anywhere in the tree line you need to activate the power. "The Force user can sense the Force interacting with the world around him.The user may spend L/D pip (Force Dice) to sense all living things within short range (including sentient and non-sentient beings).The user may spend L/D (Force Die) to sense the current emotional state of one living target with whom he is engaged." (F&D 215). (The light or dark pip goes to whether the FU (Force user) is light or dark). Now how do you climb a tree? You start at the base, right? Correct. So for an individual to activate the force power they roll the Force Die. if they have a 'pip' they can use it is then activated as an action. To upgrade that power let's say we want to go with Control:  the Ongoing effect: Commit (1 Force Die). Once per round, when an attack targets the Force user, he upgrades the difficulty of the pool once. 

 

The reason why I say using the force is like climbing a tree, is this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_QcRPNfUuE

Yoda even has to focus (take action) the force, and you could argue semantics about why that is the case, but the point in case is 'this'.... the force takes focus. 

 

and to rebuttal your argument. This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg mainly toward the end where he is not combating the force. Now yes this is move! I understand but the point is the same. You have to "channel" (eek ugly word I know) the force.

 

"For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is."~ Yoda.

 

In this scenario this novice force user has maxed the left side of the tree. Has FR1, with that being said the force user will have to roll the force die to activate the power, and then commit said force die to an upgrade. That is what makes the most sense.  Activating a force power no matter the level of the upgrade is an action and thus requires a Force die roll to even see if the player can activate the power(FORCE DIE WHERE ELSE IS IT GOING TO COME FROM). If the player activates the force power they can then use the upgrade at no cost by just committing the die to that power. All of it is clearly explained in the over arching rules on page 194 in (F&D beta)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hOdNAe6Hcc

 

In this scene Obi-wan Kenobi is using sense. Do you think that he was just walking into the bar without using sense you can tell Obi-wan was channeling the force in sense to read the situation. Obi-wan knowing and isolating the attack then commits that activation/upgrade by committing his force die (which is an action and actions derive from rolls unless it is an upgrade) of the upgrade the enemies roll, because he is able to sense the people around them and even "spidery" sense because in that scene they are 1 in the same. Say obi-wan is our FR1 character (blasphemes I know but for the sake of argument.) Obi-wan can only choose one upgrade after spending a "pip" from the roll. Because Obi-wan is FR1 and can only commit 1 die at a time. The strength and duration are self explanatory. It states on the tool tip for F&D that it requires multiple pips to upgrade or customize your power if the power requires. Sense only has one slot (initially) (The base slot) that requires a pip being spent and it specifically says here." The user may (may being orbitrary to choose because of the outcome of the roll) spend (insert force die) to sense" On page 197 it clearly states you cannot use any modifications of the force power without purchasing the base. So why would you commit a force die, when it requires the cost of a pip for the base? So it isn't asking for multiple rolls on sense, all it is saying is roll one time to see if you activate it, then after activation upgrade it accordingly by committing the die to that power. (effectively taking the die out of play).

 

Page 278 EOTE says you assemble a dice pool to determine the force powers resolve. In force and destiny the use of a light "pip" or a dark "pip" is crucial and activation of senses base power is crucial because Jedi/and Sith (grumble) Teeter on this pinnacle of waxing and waning with the force. You have to draw upon the force to activate a power FOR IT TO RESOLVE if obi-wan is feeling particularly dark. Guess what being the master Jedi he is, he probably is going to say "I'm not in the right frame of mind to do this." THIS RIGHT HERE is why it is crucial to activate a force power when it requires or says SPEND A PIP. Because then you have a Jedi or a Sith just activating upgrades to powers by circumventing what is suppose to be a system of checks and balances. 

 

If I want to use heal on someone that is a light side power if I am a Jedi and use a dark-side pip on a power to activate it, guess what. That power comes at a cost which is constantly stated in all the books. 

 

So I am extremely inclined to say to activate any upgrades your force power base has to be activated. For the following concise reasons

1) It is a tree think of as you increase through climbing a tree you gain more focus to foot holding and hand placement. Well same thing with the force you are altering the force at your will and that initial cost of sense requires a pip cost whether it be light or dark

2) By just committing a die it then becomes an incidental and thus circumvents many (not all) restrictions to a force user and their power

3) The rules clearly state you need to activate the base power to see if the power resolves. Guess what if you are a dark jedi and roll two light pips, you are not going to use the power and you are not going to upgrade it. It is just the way it is. If you are a Jedi and you get 2 light pips Hooray you can use the force power as it was intended with upgrades or committing. WIthout violation.

4) Morality of light and dark, how do you know or how do you keep your Character within its rigid code (Sith/Jedi) when you require them not to activate the force pip of their "alignment"

 

In short this may have been convoluted in some ways, but I think people are trying to universally circumvent rules that are clearly stated. Through all the rules books. From EotE to F&D. 

 

[Lathrop 838]

Not to be a jerk Max Silverlight, and by all means, welcome to the forum, but there's way too much stuff for me to pick at in your post. So I'm just going to get straight to the points.

 

In regards to needing to activate power first, then commit:

Pg. 279 in EotE, pg. 295 in AoR, pg. 196 FaD Beta:

 

To activate an ongoing effect, the Force-sensitive character does not need to spend Force points. Instead, he must commit a number of Force dice O to fuel this effect (the number required is listed in the individual effect)

 

And as mentioned before in the thread. Unless the commit is activated is done as an incidental, typically to simply prolong effects of a base power/upgrades (Battle Meditation, Seek, etc.) then you are spending your entire action, only committing the force dice. So for Sense, you do not get to roll the dice, spend it on the power to read minds, and then commit to upgrade your incoming attacks. You only commit. That's where cost is, a spent action.

 

 

In regards to the general need to have to activate the base power first in order to use upgrades, this just boils down to common sense, and ties into what I mentioned earlier in the thread, where different sections of the trees in Powers can be divided (particularly for sections divided by Control upgrades), because they're different aspects of the same power. So yes, there will be some powers where you absolutely do need to spend that first point on the base power to take advantage of upgrades (Move, Protect/Unleash) but others do not, and is a key reason for the inclusion of "may spend".

 

 

So if you want to houserule it for your table because it makes sense to you. You're more than welcome. But do not confuse what the books are saying.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Lathrop

[Shakespearian_Soldier 502]

Since it's treated as a resource, it's too bad that excess force points can't be banked between rounds. That way if you don't generate enough on your first turn, you could keep what you rolled to get a better chance of it going off the next turn.

 

This is why Force Rating is so important. Throwing away experience to gain all tiers of a power that your character's current ability isn't strong enough to harness...

 

Think of it like purchasing one of the world's most advanced, capable, and downright nifty pieces of hardware and software in the world. You've spent all the money and made the considerable effort of gaining all those parts and pieces... but unless you're a computer geek with a complete understanding of how machines operate, how to fix them, and how best to utilise their abilities, you won't get the most out of what you have.

[MrDodger 571]

Specifically for Sense. If I wanted to activate the first Control upgrade (sense the current thoughts) would I need 2 pips? One to activate the Base power, and another for the Control aspect?

I can see both sides, and would prefer something tangible to refer to rather than common sense, because common sense for one person will always be argued by another!

Edited May 21, 2015 by MrDodger

[Lorne 2,021]

@MrDodger, You only spend 1 pip to activate since it is a unique effect, not an upgrade to another effect.

[MrDodger 571]

Thanks Lorne, makes sense.