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Kilbourne

Question about Activating Force Powers

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I am actually in the middle of a Star Wars session and we have a debate on how Force Powers are used.

 

Jedi Player wants to use the Force Power: Move. He has purchased at least one Rank in Magnitude, Strength, Range and Control.

 

Side 1) In order to use the Magnitude, Strength and Range purchases (the Jedi Player has already purchased with XP) it would cost 4 white force dots (when rolled on the dice) to use Force Power Move with Magnitude (Number of targets affected), Strength (Increase Silhouette Size) and Range (Upgrade the Range of Force Power: Move).

Primary Reason: The Jedi Player must decide which upgrade to activate based on the white dot successes he rolls.

 

 

Side 2) When using a Force Power, each upgrade purcahsed does not increase the cost in white dots. Force Move requires 1 white dot to activate, no matter what upgrades have been purchased. If Magnitude, Strength and Range have all been purchased, and the Jedi Player wishes to use those that he has purchased, it still only costs 1 white dot to activate a successful Force: Move.

Primary Reason: Mechanically, under Side 1's assumption, when using Misdirect, if the Jedi Player wanted to use Misdirect (Basic), Range, Magnitude, Duration, Strength, Control and Mastery (even at the most basic levels equaling a total of 75 xp) would require 7 white dots to activate. The Jedi Player as a new character and spending all 75 Points in Misdirect would not be able to accomplish this, because they only have 2 Force Dice to roll.

 

Sorry for the length of the post, wanted to be specific. Any help in working this out would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

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Agree with Ghostofman, this one does...

 

You are upgrading the Basic use of the Power in question.  Think of the situation in actual physical terms (size and weight of course, since no one has actual TK range is irrelevant).  Lifting an apple takes little effort.  Lifting a ball weighing 10 pounds in each hand takes considerably more effort.  The size, weight, and number of items being held and lifted have increased, thus increasing the amount of effort needed to do so.

 

This is why Force Rating is important to being a Force user.. have your PC invest towards Force Rating increases to achieve multiple upgrades.

 

Edit: Multiple edits were needed in creating this post.  Maintenance required..

Edited by Oden Gebhac

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Yeah, Side 1 is the correct application.

 

Although bear in mind that the Force user determines which upgrades to activate after they roll their Force dice.  There'd been some contention in the past, particularly with the Move power, that the player had to declare the full effects of what they were trying (such as hurling a stormtrooper into an Imperial officer that's at medium range, necessitating 3 Force points to cover the basic power, a Strength Upgrade, and a Range Upgrade) and if they failed to generate those three Force points, then the entire power failed.  Such an approach is incorrect, and in the example given if the PC only generated two Force Points, they could opt to instead hurl a Silhouette 0 object at the Imperial officer.

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I vote for side 2.

Full Disclosure: I am the Jedi Player in question, and this side would be more beneficial to me.

Unfortunately, you're not getting the free lunch.

 

Side 1 is the way the system is meant to operate.  If you don't generate enough Force points to activate all the upgrades you're hoping for, then you simply have to settle for a lesser effect.

 

When the EotE Beta was initially published, Force powers did originally work the way that Side 2 details.  And it was unanimously noted as being incredibly broken and overpowered, to the point where one of the earliest updates that FFG made to the core system was to require Force points be generated and spent to trigger the upgrades.

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I vote for side 2.

Full Disclosure: I am the Jedi Player in question, and this side would be more beneficial to me.

Unfortunately, you're not getting the free lunch.

 

Side 1 is the way the system is meant to operate.  If you don't generate enough Force points to activate all the upgrades you're hoping for, then you simply have to settle for a lesser effect.

 

When the EotE Beta was initially published, Force powers did originally work the way that Side 2 details.  And it was unanimously noted as being incredibly broken and overpowered, to the point where one of the earliest updates that FFG made to the core system was to require Force points be generated and spent to trigger the upgrades.

I understand both sides of the argument. On the one hand, 1 point to use a power and all it's upgrades is very powerful, and could get ridiculous. On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week. I get the versatility part, but still...it doesn't seem very rewarding to spend dozens of XP on upgrades that are subject to the whims of the dice far more than the standard talents.

Since it's treated as a resource, it's too bad that excess force points can't be banked between rounds. That way if you don't generate enough on your first turn, you could keep what you rolled to get a better chance of it going off the next turn.

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This is from OggDude's posting from the Link he posted above.  I think it answers things pretty well.


 


"Generally, each upgrade can be activated multiple times, unless it specifically says otherwise.  When you activate an upgrade, you spend a light or dark pip.  If, say, you have three range upgrades, a single pip will activate all of them.  If you have one range upgrade, and assuming the description doesn't say otherwise, you can spend multiple pips to activate the upgrade multiple times.  That's the benefit of getting more of a particular type of upgrade: you can get a better effect and spend less pips.


 


You spend one pip to activate the basic power, then one pip each (or multiple pips; see above) to activate upgrades.  Normally, Control-type upgrades don't require a pip to activate; you can consider them to be a modification of the basic power.  For most powers, you can spend either a light or dark pip (though dark pips can incur conflict and destiny use) to activate an upgrade or basic power.  Other powers can have different effects depending on which type of pip you use."


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I vote for side 2.

Full Disclosure: I am the Jedi Player in question, and this side would be more beneficial to me.

Unfortunately, you're not getting the free lunch.

 

Side 1 is the way the system is meant to operate.  If you don't generate enough Force points to activate all the upgrades you're hoping for, then you simply have to settle for a lesser effect.

 

When the EotE Beta was initially published, Force powers did originally work the way that Side 2 details.  And it was unanimously noted as being incredibly broken and overpowered, to the point where one of the earliest updates that FFG made to the core system was to require Force points be generated and spent to trigger the upgrades.

 

I understand both sides of the argument. On the one hand, 1 point to use a power and all it's upgrades is very powerful, and could get ridiculous. On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week. I get the versatility part, but still...it doesn't seem very rewarding to spend dozens of XP on upgrades that are subject to the whims of the dice far more than the standard talents.

Since it's treated as a resource, it's too bad that excess force points can't be banked between rounds. That way if you don't generate enough on your first turn, you could keep what you rolled to get a better chance of it going off the next turn.

 

Well there's 3 points to consider:

 

1) Upgrades usually stack. So in most cases, if you've bought something like Range 3 times, you only spend 1 pip to activate all three. So in a lot of cases a full tree can be active for only 4 pips or so.

 

2) How often are you really going to need to activate the entire tree? Seriously, think about it, its actually going to be pretty rare.

 

3) Misdirect is a very powerful power. So using it as a baseline doesn't give good perspective. 

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Also, if powers are too easy to activate that is too much power too easily. Something FFG has tried to avoid. You want more pips, get more Force dice by taking more specs with the Force Rating talent. FFG did this on purpose so Force users wouldn't out power their non-Force using compatriots.

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On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week.

 

It's one of the things I like about the system.  It means it takes a long time to become a decent Force user, and doing something flashy takes a lot of commitment.  If you want to be able to throw several Imperial Shuttles around at long range, something you can do with only 4 pips with the current rules, shouldn't that require a Yoda-level connection and knowledge base?

 

Note that if you want that kind of campaign, it's just a matter of the GM giving everyone a ton of XP.

Edited by whafrog

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On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week.

 

It's one of the things I like about the system.  It means it takes a long time to become a decent Force user, and doing something flashy takes a lot of commitment.  If you want to be able to throw several Imperial Shuttles around at long range, something you can do with only 4 pips with the current rules, shouldn't that require a Yoda-level connection and knowledge base?

 

Note that if you want that kind of campaign, it's just a matter of the GM giving everyone a ton of XP.

I don't have a problem with that at all. My concern would be trying to do something big and cool that is going to require a bunch of force points to go off; then rolling and not getting enough successes to do what I intended. I would be left to do a watered down version, (If possible,) or doing nothith and losing that action for the round.

I just think that being able to "Bank" the points you did generate, similar with passing advantages would help mitigate that, and would help to activate it on your next round. I also think it would work thematicly, saying you are concentrating on using the force, letting it flow through you.

At this point I know it would have to be a house rule, but I think it's one worth considering.

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On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week.

 It's one of the things I like about the system.  It means it takes a long time to become a decent Force user, and doing something flashy takes a lot of commitment.  If you want to be able to throw several Imperial Shuttles around at long range, something you can do with only 4 pips with the current rules, shouldn't that require a Yoda-level connection and knowledge base? Note that if you want that kind of campaign, it's just a matter of the GM giving everyone a ton of XP.
I don't have a problem with that at all. My concern would be trying to do something big and cool that is going to require a bunch of force points to go off; then rolling and not getting enough successes to do what I intended. I would be left to do a watered down version, (If possible,) or doing nothith and losing that action for the round.I just think that being able to "Bank" the points you did generate, similar with passing advantages would help mitigate that, and would help to activate it on your next round. I also think it would work thematicly, saying you are concentrating on using the force, letting it flow through you.At this point I know it would have to be a house rule, but I think it's one worth considering.

So go dark side. Way easier to get pips that way.

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On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week.

 It's one of the things I like about the system.  It means it takes a long time to become a decent Force user, and doing something flashy takes a lot of commitment.  If you want to be able to throw several Imperial Shuttles around at long range, something you can do with only 4 pips with the current rules, shouldn't that require a Yoda-level connection and knowledge base? Note that if you want that kind of campaign, it's just a matter of the GM giving everyone a ton of XP.
I don't have a problem with that at all. My concern would be trying to do something big and cool that is going to require a bunch of force points to go off; then rolling and not getting enough successes to do what I intended. I would be left to do a watered down version, (If possible,) or doing nothith and losing that action for the round.I just think that being able to "Bank" the points you did generate, similar with passing advantages would help mitigate that, and would help to activate it on your next round. I also think it would work thematicly, saying you are concentrating on using the force, letting it flow through you.At this point I know it would have to be a house rule, but I think it's one worth considering.

So go dark side. Way easier to get pips that way.

Not always an option. To use the dark side you have to flip a destiny point. If you can't flip, then you can't use the dark side.

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On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week.

 It's one of the things I like about the system.  It means it takes a long time to become a decent Force user, and doing something flashy takes a lot of commitment.  If you want to be able to throw several Imperial Shuttles around at long range, something you can do with only 4 pips with the current rules, shouldn't that require a Yoda-level connection and knowledge base? Note that if you want that kind of campaign, it's just a matter of the GM giving everyone a ton of XP.

 

I don't have a problem with that at all. My concern would be trying to do something big and cool that is going to require a bunch of force points to go off; then rolling and not getting enough successes to do what I intended. I would be left to do a watered down version, (If possible,) or doing nothith and losing that action for the round.I just think that being able to "Bank" the points you did generate, similar with passing advantages would help mitigate that, and would help to activate it on your next round. I also think it would work thematicly, saying you are concentrating on using the force, letting it flow through you.At this point I know it would have to be a house rule, but I think it's one worth considering.

 

So go dark side. Way easier to get pips that way.

 

Not always an option. To use the dark side you have to flip a destiny point. If you can't flip, then you can't use the dark side.

 

Hmm... after reading FaD about Dark side usage I find myself not liking that you need to spend a Destiny Point in order to use Dark Side pips, especially since you additionally suffer 1 Strain and 1 Conflict for each DS pip you spend.

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Not always an option. To use the dark side you have to flip a destiny point. If you can't flip, then you can't use the dark side.

 

 

If you're actually dark side, then dark side points become your main source of Force Power fuel, in a similar manner that other characters used light side points by default.

 

 

Hmm... after reading FaD about Dark side usage I find myself not liking that you need to spend a Destiny Point in order to use Dark Side pips, especially since you additionally suffer 1 Strain and 1 Conflict for each DS pip you spend.

 

 

Flipping a Destiny Point isn't too huge since the more dice you have, the more points you can potentially convert on a single Destiny Point. Conflict is fine since you've got to have consequences. Strain... I can see where it can be a complaint, but I've got no issue with it. For Dark Side users, the strain makes it more of a task to use Powers, and tempts them just to use their Dark Side Points since they have to deal with the long trek back up in Morality to Light Side if they want to make that switch. Use of Strain against any light or dark side character also helps make sure they're not too powerful - if a person has 4 force dice and they roll 4 points they can't use, a Destiny Point and (maybe) 4 conflict can be a punishment to some, but 4 strain can be what make them decide to scale back since it might immediately put their character in a spot they rather not have it.

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On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week.

 It's one of the things I like about the system.  It means it takes a long time to become a decent Force user, and doing something flashy takes a lot of commitment.  If you want to be able to throw several Imperial Shuttles around at long range, something you can do with only 4 pips with the current rules, shouldn't that require a Yoda-level connection and knowledge base? Note that if you want that kind of campaign, it's just a matter of the GM giving everyone a ton of XP.

 

I don't have a problem with that at all. My concern would be trying to do something big and cool that is going to require a bunch of force points to go off; then rolling and not getting enough successes to do what I intended. I would be left to do a watered down version, (If possible,) or doing nothith and losing that action for the round.I just think that being able to "Bank" the points you did generate, similar with passing advantages would help mitigate that, and would help to activate it on your next round. I also think it would work thematicly, saying you are concentrating on using the force, letting it flow through you.At this point I know it would have to be a house rule, but I think it's one worth considering.

 

So go dark side. Way easier to get pips that way.

 

Not always an option. To use the dark side you have to flip a destiny point. If you can't flip, then you can't use the dark side.

 

Hmm... after reading FaD about Dark side usage I find myself not liking that you need to spend a Destiny Point in order to use Dark Side pips, especially since you additionally suffer 1 Strain and 1 Conflict for each DS pip you spend.

 

You read the wrong part there Chummer. Page 36 is what I was talking about. You know become an actual Darkside Force user, not one of those namby-pamby "Grey" users. (FYI read teh beta update, this part has changed)

 

Even so you still didn't catch what you did read. You Spend 1 Dpoint, and Get 1 Conflict, and then you Suffer strain equal to the number of pips you flip. Flipping a pip is really no big deal, even the devs have said so. Unless you're being a total jerkface, or trying to use the force to do everything, that one conflict isn't gonna do a whole lot to your Morality score.

Edited by Ghostofman

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On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week.

 It's one of the things I like about the system.  It means it takes a long time to become a decent Force user, and doing something flashy takes a lot of commitment.  If you want to be able to throw several Imperial Shuttles around at long range, something you can do with only 4 pips with the current rules, shouldn't that require a Yoda-level connection and knowledge base? Note that if you want that kind of campaign, it's just a matter of the GM giving everyone a ton of XP.
I don't have a problem with that at all. My concern would be trying to do something big and cool that is going to require a bunch of force points to go off; then rolling and not getting enough successes to do what I intended. I would be left to do a watered down version, (If possible,) or doing nothith and losing that action for the round.I just think that being able to "Bank" the points you did generate, similar with passing advantages would help mitigate that, and would help to activate it on your next round. I also think it would work thematicly, saying you are concentrating on using the force, letting it flow through you.At this point I know it would have to be a house rule, but I think it's one worth considering.

So go dark side. Way easier to get pips that way.

Not always an option. To use the dark side you have to flip a destiny point. If you can't flip, then you can't use the dark side.

Hmm... after reading FaD about Dark side usage I find myself not liking that you need to spend a Destiny Point in order to use Dark Side pips, especially since you additionally suffer 1 Strain and 1 Conflict for each DS pip you spend.
You read the wrong part there Chummer. Page 36 is what I was talking about. You know become an actual Darkside Force user, not one of those namby-pamby "Grey" users. (FYI read teh beta update, this part has changed)

 

Even so you still didn't catch what you did read. You Spend 1 Dpoint, and Get 1 Conflict, and then you Suffer strain equal to the number of pips you flip. Flipping a pip is really no big deal, even the devs have said so. Unless you're being a total jerkface, or trying to use the force to do everything, that one conflict isn't gonna do a whole lot to your Morality score.

*Sigh* Not everyone wants to play a dark sider, nor should they have to to cover questionable design.

Flipping a pip usually isn't a big deal...if you have one to flip. That isn't always the case. No one player has control over when the pips get flipped. It has happened plenty of times where we used them all. I'm sure it will happen just as many times in the future. Not much that can be done but wait for the GM to flip them back and hope a team mate doesn't flip it again before you get a chance to use it yourself.

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On the other hand, having to generate 5-7 force points to get full use out of the XP you could spend in some trees is pretty week.

 It's one of the things I like about the system.  It means it takes a long time to become a decent Force user, and doing something flashy takes a lot of commitment.  If you want to be able to throw several Imperial Shuttles around at long range, something you can do with only 4 pips with the current rules, shouldn't that require a Yoda-level connection and knowledge base? Note that if you want that kind of campaign, it's just a matter of the GM giving everyone a ton of XP.

 

I don't have a problem with that at all. My concern would be trying to do something big and cool that is going to require a bunch of force points to go off; then rolling and not getting enough successes to do what I intended. I would be left to do a watered down version, (If possible,) or doing nothith and losing that action for the round.I just think that being able to "Bank" the points you did generate, similar with passing advantages would help mitigate that, and would help to activate it on your next round. I also think it would work thematicly, saying you are concentrating on using the force, letting it flow through you.At this point I know it would have to be a house rule, but I think it's one worth considering.

 

So go dark side. Way easier to get pips that way.

 

Not always an option. To use the dark side you have to flip a destiny point. If you can't flip, then you can't use the dark side.

 

Hmm... after reading FaD about Dark side usage I find myself not liking that you need to spend a Destiny Point in order to use Dark Side pips, especially since you additionally suffer 1 Strain and 1 Conflict for each DS pip you spend.

 

You read the wrong part there Chummer. Page 36 is what I was talking about. You know become an actual Darkside Force user, not one of those namby-pamby "Grey" users. (FYI read teh beta update, this part has changed)

 

Even so you still didn't catch what you did read. You Spend 1 Dpoint, and Get 1 Conflict, and then you Suffer strain equal to the number of pips you flip. Flipping a pip is really no big deal, even the devs have said so. Unless you're being a total jerkface, or trying to use the force to do everything, that one conflict isn't gonna do a whole lot to your Morality score.

 

Ah... I missed page 36.  And I misread that section about the Destiny Points too.  One more reason why I can't wait for the actual Core Book drop.  Everything will be more clearer, hopefully.

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Yeah, one of the nuances to catch is the idea that the system is built to ask "Are you sure you needed the force to do that?" to encourage lightsiders to resist using the Force as a crutch.

 

A good lightside player will have no fear of flipping pips, because he knows that he needs to use the force when he does so, and the impact on his Morality will be pretty small in the grand scheme of things...

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A good lightside player will have no fear of flipping pips, because he knows that he needs to use the force when he does so, and the impact on his Morality will be pretty small in the grand scheme of things...

Pretty much this.

 

In the times that I've been a playing a Force user, even prior to FaD and the introduction of the Morality/Conflict mechanic, I made it a point to have my PC not call upon the dark side unless it was vitally important that I succeeded at using a Force power at a given level of effect, especially if they had received some amount of Jedi training, and thus were aware of the "dark side" and that over-reliance upon it was a bad thing.

 

So long as one's character isn't going around kicking puppies or committing various acts of unnecessary violence just because, the couple of points of conflict you'll earn from tapping into the dark side won't have a major impact on your Morality score, particularly if you're not angling to be a light side paragon.

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Oh well, to me it's the Destiny Point which represents the bigger cost. they are limited and, if you want it back, you're going to be f***ed up in one of your future rolls.

 

Now, talking about activating Force powers...

Do two different instances of the same power count as one activation, or two? Example: If I have Sense all the way down on its left branch, do I need to spend one action to commit a Force die for defense and another action for attack, or do I commit both dice with the same action? I'm inclined towards the former, though would love some opinions here... thx :)

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Oh well, to me it's the Destiny Point which represents the bigger cost. they are limited and, if you want it back, you're going to be f***ed up in one of your future rolls.

 

Now, talking about activating Force powers...

Do two different instances of the same power count as one activation, or two? Example: If I have Sense all the way down on its left branch, do I need to spend one action to commit a Force die for defense and another action for attack, or do I commit both dice with the same action? I'm inclined towards the former, though would love some opinions here... thx :)

 

Each commit is a separate action. So you'd spend one action committing to outgoing attack upgrades, and then another action committing to incoming attack upgrades.

 

Committing can only be done as part of another aspect of the Force Power if it specifically says it, usually saying something along the lines of "may commit [Force dice] as an incidental after successful activation of base power", and that's because the committing of dice used this way is to just prolong an initial effect usually.

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