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devotedknight

Is Missiles and/or Torpedoes worth the Points?

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I have to concede that ordnance in not worth the points you spend.

 

After playing one year with bombers loaded with missiles and torpedoes. I have never been able to use them effectively. I asked the players in my group, (Many have been playing since the game came out and go to every tournament that they can), how can I make the Missiles and/or Torpedoes to work?

 

They all answered, you can’t. Missile and Torpedoes are not worth the points you spend on a one shot weapon, period!

 

They are too dependent on movement, lower pilot skill pilots have the hardest time effective lock on and the range limitation means that their targets can, “Get out of range” or “get close in” where you can’t launch the Missile or Torpedo upgrade. And the ship who didn’t fire their stuff get concentrated fire to take them out before they get a change to fire the weapon off. Wasting the points, even with the new upgrades!

 

They also tell me that it is always better to spend the points on an Extra Tie Fighter or two, (Academy Pilot). The Tie Fighter is just much more useful. It add more "hit points" to your list. It always moves first and most always gets it action where if you place is right, other ships bump into it, (Which Means that the other ship loses it action and where is was moving to.) and if you have 4 Academy pilots, the fire from the first or second Tie Fighter stripes focus and evade token leave the it open for the other Tie Fighter.

 

My question is: is this correct is Missile or Torpedoes just a waste of time?

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It is not just the point cost that puts them at a disadvantage. It is not just the one time use only. IMHO it is the restrictiveness and inefficiency of the target lock action.

 

Sure points and single use makes them from not all that good to completely terrible. Recently I had a boosted 5 dice torpedo attack with Horton and rolled all focuses and 1 blank. Rerolled the blank for another blank and the single crit modified from the proton torpedoes was easily evaded. There was 4 points down the drain due to a terrible dice roll in what should have been fairly modifiable. However my problems for most of the game wasn't that lousy dice roll. It was that the target lock was either out of arc (for Horton) or out of range (for Nera).

 

It is too difficult to set up for a torpedo/missile attack, too easy to get out of it (especially with high PS arc dodgers which is the meta) and for all your efforts you are not rewarded with say decent attack that can ensure damage or removal of a ship. (Horton later rolled against the same interceptor and got a hit and a crit through the evade dice but it did not cause the 3 points of damage needed.). Instead it is rather quite the opposite. keeping the target lock for rerolling all of your 3 dice attack (essentially 6 dice rolls) is better than spending it for 1 more attack dice (4 dice rolls).

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With the way they currently work, mostly No, not worth it.

Your almost always going to be better with more ships in your squad than to many points on upgrades regardless what they are

Even with the new Extra Munitions card coming in the next wave won't help missiles and torpedoes much, sure you will get more for your points but you still need sooooooo much setup to use them it's just not worth it.

Bombs however are fine

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I've tried to make them work. But have not been successful. I'm far from an advanced or experienced player though. Some people can make them work, others find them over priced and too situational. It's hard because a lot of us really want to use them. But, as you have discovered, the points are better spent elsewhere.

Stegocent referenced Wave 7's Extra Munitions card. It is too hard to determine at this time if this will make ordnance more attractive (there are several threads discussing this if you do a search) or, as in the current game, they will remain too expensive.

Time will tell. Personally, I really hope it brings ordnance back in to the game. I think this is a feature which could be a lot of fun.

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They are... difficult.
However, I find that they are best en masse, the so-called Alpha-Strike fleet.

In which you invest points in ordnance to increase the ability to completely destroy more than their worth in enemy ship in the first round of combat.

 

On quite the other hand, more recent ordnance certainly comes closer to usefullness. Flechette Torpedoes and Proton Rockets are certainly worth their points in the right fleet.

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I agree with every thing said so far. I really wanted them to work but I guess it's not to be. I don't have faith the FFG will fix them. I appears to me that they keep throwing band-aids at it and hope that it goes away. Oh well.

 

I guess it's really to later for a remedy but I believe that Missile and Torpedoes should be the Primary weapon of the Tie Bomber and the Y-Wing, and just as effective. I saddy leave behind my favorite ship the Tie Bomber and move into some thing else. 

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I don't think they are worth the points currently. They without a doubt are giving you an improvement in damage output, however their single use nature and difficulties in launching guarantee that their adding benefit is almost never going to be 4+ points. I am convinced that if they were cheap enough, they would be worth bringing. However, they are not all created equal.

 

Take proton rockets, one of the arguably best ordnance choices in a vacuum, though certainly not suitable for all ships:

-3 points puts them on the low cost side of ordnance. A check in favor of the proton rockets. It still may be too much, but its better than the 4+ price tag almost all other high damage ordnance options have.

-On an agility 3 ship, they have one of the highest damage potential of a single attack in-game. Certainly this would be worth something...

-Only requires focus. Any ships can take a focus. The lowest action requirement for a piece of ordnance. However, this also means that you need to have gotten your action the same round. [whereas a TL could have been gotten at any previous turn]

-Replaces a range 1 primary attack. If you have agility 2, you aren't getting any bonus unless you have a primary attack less than 3. Below agility 2, no ship is seeing a benefit from bringing these. Without a PS bid to guarantee an early shot, your ship needs to survive being a range 2-3 at least a turn, and possibly even a volley from range 1 by anything firing before.

 

These criterion give you a short list of ships that could even get any benefit from this ordnance being on the ship:

-Z-95s. Only given 1 extra dice over a primary at range 1. With how easily easily they die, it could be difficult to land rockets before the ship is dead. Not to mention that you are only adding 1 extra dice once. Not really a suitable choice.

-A-wings. Thankfully gets 2 extra dice. With the added agility and better maneuvering options, might be one of the best ships for delivering rockets. Unfortunately, the opportunity cost is then going without your refit, which is practically necessary to justify the ship on its own. If refit didn't take up this slot, I think we'd have seen more proton rockets on a-wings.

-Tie advanced. Thankfully gets 2 extra dice. Without the title from the raider, these ships do not make it to the table in the first place. Once the upgrade cards start arriving, we may see some proton rockets on these guys. ATC + 5 focused attack dice is going to be a brutal attack. AC players might not be as thrilled to be using their actions for offense, but still might like the opportunity to do more than 2 damage at a time.

-Tie defender. Only getting 1 extra dice. The points are also competing with the cannon slot options.

-Tie bomber. Rarely seen on the table in the first place. Only getting 1 extra dice. Not quite as maneuverable as the other ships, and the high PS ships are more overpriced than the generics, making them poor choices to compensate. The points are also competing with every other ordnance choice in-game.

-YT-2400. Only getting 1 extra dice. Having opponents in the range 1 forwards arc is exactly the opposite of how this turret ship is flown.

 

So amongst the few ships that get any kind of benefit, there is one ship that might be suitable in the future, one ship that would be very suitable were the missile not taking up its discount slot, and a bunch of ships that certainly aren't getting enough benefit to bother fitting. Remember this is one of the ordnance choices that a lot of players use as a counter-example to ordnance being not worth its points.

Edited by zero9300

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Mostly no.

There are some exceptions, I think.

Bombs -- particularly seismic charges, but also prox mines -- can be worth the cost if fit carefully into your list concept.

Proton Rockets on A-wings can be handy depending on the rest of your list composition.

Flechette Torpedoes are a cheap way to add a control element to a list.

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I guess it's really to later for a remedy but I believe that Missile and Torpedoes should be the Primary weapon of the Tie Bomber and the Y-Wing, and just as effective. 

Yes. I think there are ships that should really be ordnance platforms and that is their 'thing'. I see some fellas take bombers as cheap tie fighters.

I once thought that an increase in range for certain ships would make life fun. Eg. Bomber only card. Increase range of all missiles and torps by 1.

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I find that Lieutenant Blount + Assault Missiles = a fairly cheap (22 points) anti-swarm starfighter. Granted, it's a one-trick pony, but after he dishes his guaranteed damage you've still got a PS 6 four-HP ship to harass the enemy with.

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My 2 cents...their worth is wholely dependent on who they're being shot at. I ran a 4 bomber list at a tournament once that had Jonus with squad leader and 3 scimitars with assault missiles and cluster missiles. I went 2 and 2. Against a well flown bwing list(the guy made top 8 of over 30) I did amazingly well and tabledhim. Against a less well flown Interceptor list, I got crushed because I would shot and he would just evade my shots. And when your paying 4 pts for a one time shot, it needs to do damage. So my point is that if you always play low agility opponents, missiles and torpedoes are usually very worth it, but in real life when you never know what you will face, they generally are not.

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Taking one ship with specialized ordinance can act as board control. Ion Pulse Missiles for example, scare the bejeezus out of large base ships and they will actively avoid the ship carrying them. Assault Missiles play serious mind games with formation flyers. Homing Missiles can do decent damage against a ship that relies heavily on its evade tokens.

 

Problem is (obviously) they cost a lot.

 

At this point in the game, you're going to have to build your list around what ordinance you want to bring (this excludes bombs because they are actually useful). Think about what role the ordinance carrying ship is going to play in your list and how it will use it as an active and passive threat.

 

A flanker carrying IPMs can herd a large base ship towards your killbox, or into an area where the obstacles are. The flanker might also get prioritized for death and that's a good thing too if he's cheap because the flanker will draw opposition away from your main body.

 

There are some outliers. Vader was made for ordinance. Prockets in particular. But then, that starts to get expensive again.

 

Rule of thumb is keep it cheap. Lt. Blount is 23pnts with Assault Missiles and Deadeye. Is he really going to makeup his points if you face a 2-ship build. Prolly not. All of the launched stuff is super situational (something FFG did NOT cost for) and hence is mostly irrelevant in take all comer lists.

 

In short, take the extra ship.

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As unreliable as I've found them there's been few moments I've enjoyed in Xwing more than ramming 6 red dice down Boba Fett's throat with a focused Adv Torp from an Opportunist Wedge. It...was...GLORIOUS.

I do know what you mean! But over all they are very unreliable. 

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As a general rule, missiles and torpedoes are a waste of points. There are some exceptions:

  • Proton rockets on certain ships. Mainly TIE Advanced. Maybe M3-A and A-Wing.
  • Blount with assault (or ion pulse) missile.
  • Rhymer with advanced proton torpedoes.
  • Nera with (advanced) proton torpedoes.

In other words: You need a good pilot ability to improve your ordnance.

 

The main problem is the inability of low PS ships to acquire a TL before attacking at range 3.

 

I once thought that an increase in range for certain ships would make life fun. Eg. Bomber only card. Increase range of all missiles and torps by 1.

The ability to attack at range 4 hardly helps if you acquire a TL up to range 3.

An upgrade that allows to acquire a TL (but not attack) at range 4 (and maybe 5) would help. If hat is a missile upgrade card very few ships can pair it with extra munitions.

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As it stands I would say it depends. For a standard game its very list dependant. I think proton rockets on Jake Farrel(and probably tycho) or the advanced it awesome, until the raider comes out the advanced it self isn't. I have found Ion torpedoes to be nice as well but you have to be able to take advantage of the ionization effect and if that doesn't help your list then its not the torpedoe for you. The same goes for Flechette torpedo I ran a scum fett with that and tactician along with 2 ion warthogs at the store champs I made top 8 it was there for dealing with interceptors or phantoms and while there were plenty of phantoms at the tournament I never ran into them but it killed fel. The others have pointed out a few other examples but thats about it for standard as is is now. 

 

Epic is another thing entirely. My player group runs team epic alot and one player always takes loaded out bombers and some support his team hasn't lost a game yet regardless of who is on it. I am not saying he has had anyone bad on his team but we have rotated teams and his teammate usually takes something else you can't ignore. There are usually just too many ships for assault missiles to not do alot of damage also he is really good at ending the turn before engaging in combat  just outside of range 3 so that next turn he guarantees a target lock and with those kinds of point running a ship or two with squad leader or jendon with the title isn't a big deal. 

 

I am pretty sure when wave7 comes out you will see a resurgence of missiles and torpedoes, at least on select ships. Maybe not bombers rhymer is expensive and you don't want to make jonus more of a target then he already is though if 2 ship lists hold than he might get something. The high ps punisher I am pretty sure will see play and will have missiles and torpedoes. Since I haven't seen more of the wave 7 stuff its only speculation but I can see a loaded out punisher being played with ordinance and it not being a problem. 

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I agree with every thing said so far. I really wanted them to work but I guess it's not to be. I don't have faith the FFG will fix them. I appears to me that they keep throwing band-aids at it and hope that it goes away. Oh well.

 

I guess it's really to later for a remedy but I believe that Missile and Torpedoes should be the Primary weapon of the Tie Bomber and the Y-Wing, and just as effective. I saddy leave behind my favorite ship the Tie Bomber and move into some thing else. 

 

Don't discount the Tie Bomber, it's actually a very effective swarm ship, with the best cost to health value in the game. Just don't bother putting torpedoes or missiles on them. They have a decent dial if you learn how to use it effectively, and most people aren't used to facing them, which can be an advantage.

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As unreliable as I've found them there's been few moments I've enjoyed in Xwing more than ramming 6 red dice down Boba Fett's throat with a focused Adv Torp from an Opportunist Wedge. It...was...GLORIOUS.

Agreed, I've ran APT myself (2 B's) and the ability to basically say, here, take 10 damage, is massively psychological on both side of the table

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I only really play casual games, so I often use proton torps and rockets as I find them worth it, I normally make it my mission to use them as soon as possible and have become quite good at getting them to work. 

 

I've never used advanced proton torps in casual play, but as somebody mentioned Neras ability might make them worth while to try.

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I've worked with ordnance quite a bit.  There are tricks and tips to making it work, but there are no guarantees.  No matter how unlikely you can make a bad roll, there is always the chance.   There is also the chance for your opponent to roll an amazing roll.  It may not happen often, but it may and it will erase all those good times.  High level tournament players like to reduce any risk at all.  So, they tend to not use ordnance.  Just look at Fat Han.  He saves so many bad dice rolls.  Still, there are things you can do to make it worth while...most of the time.  

 

There are numerous tricks and tips with elite pilots and other upgrades that you can do to get better results.  Capt. Jonus w/ 3 other Tie Bombers is perhaps the best method.  He allows 2 re-rolls for each missile.  That's amazing.  There are others, such as Krassis w/ Cluster Missiles that lets you re-roll one bad die per turn.  I won't go into all these different factors.

 

As for normal methods of using ordnance, there are things you can do to improve your chances.  If you can get a Focus in the same round you TL then you improve your odds.  A Concussion Missile w/ Focus as a 94% chance of getting at least 3 hits.  That's pretty reliable.  Proton Torpedoes work better when you have a way to re-roll blanks.  Homing Missiles cost 1 pt more, but you get to use the TL on them.  That's very reliable.  Cluster Missiles are great against low agility targets, but don't do so well when they are rolling 3 evade dice....at least not without a Jonus double re-roll.   

 

Vader is great for missiles as he can get the TL and Focus in the same round.  I've used him to good effect back in Wave 1-2.  I've also used him with a Tie Bomber.  I've found if you combine two ordnance shots on the same target, you can really smash them with a fantastic alpha strike.  I've used Vader w/ Concussion Missile and Squad Leader (to give an action) and a Scimitar with Concussion.  Vader gives his action late to the Bomber that gets the TL.  Both fire on the same target and can usually smash it hard.  Don't fire at high agility ships.  

 

I just took a 4 Tie Bomber list to my Store Championship and was the only undefeated player going into the Final Four.  I lost vs. 3 generic Phantoms.  I think that's pretty good for using a ship people say is bad with ordnance that people say is useless.  I'd write more, but breakfast is ready.

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I once thought that an increase in range for certain ships would make life fun. Eg. Bomber only card. Increase range of all missiles and torps by 1.

The ability to attack at range 4 hardly helps if you acquire a TL up to range 3.

An upgrade that allows to acquire a TL (but not attack) at range 4 (and maybe 5) would help. If hat is a missile upgrade card very few ships can pair it with extra munitions.

 

Agreed, that was a problem I faced when discussing the possibility of increasing range.

I felt it was more thematic and true to the ship's role. I thought it may have been enjoyable and thematic to have your bomber sit at a longer range and fire off its ordnance. The other ships could protect it or flank. The opponent has to prioritise their targets. That is, choose between closing the gap and hit the missile platform OR deal with the escort.

 

 

Don't discount the Tie Bomber, it's actually a very effective swarm ship, with the best cost to health value in the game. Just don't bother putting torpedoes or missiles on them. They have a decent dial if you learn how to use it effectively, and most people aren't used to facing them, which can be an advantage.

 

Whilst I see merit in using the bomber in this manner, it feels wrong somehow. It's role should never be to get amidst the battle and mix it up with other fighters in close quarters. Bombers should be slow and heavy .. with the ability to deal damage at range using their lasers only in time of need. 

Edited by Conandoodle

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