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Minion Group-Triumph Damage

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Here's an issue that came up recently in play.  How does it work out? 

 

I player does, let's say, 13pts of damage (pre-soak) versus a Minion group (20WT = 4mins x 5WT) with....

....one Triumph, or possibly....two Triumphs. 

 

With just the damage, one minion is taken out. However, a Triumph automatically takes a minion out. Does that mean that TWO minions are taken out on a hit with a Triumph when the damage also exceeds the WT? Is the Triumph to take a minion out and then the damage to take an additional minion out? Or, does is it the same (because if a person only did 7pts damage, 2pts minus soak, then the Triumph is a bigger deal....not everyone does 10+ points of damage a hit, hence the Triumph rule taking a minion out.)?

 

If TWO triumphs are rolled, then does each one take out a minion?  

 

 

 

 

 

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remember that the soak is only subtracted once from each hit; the Minion Groups hit points are 1 pool, not 4 in this case. so if the Group in this example had soak 3 or less then 2 would have been taken out by the hit as 13-3 = 10, 2 minions gone.

 

the easiest way to think about a crit on a minion group is that the crit does 1 minions wound threshold worth of damage, ignoring soak, so you don't take out a minion who is partially wounded, but a fully fit one.

 

i defiantly allow multiple minions to be removed by this method if enough advantage or triumphs are rolled, but thats just me and my table, as the normal rules for multiple Crits is a +10 to the dice roll for the second and onward

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remember that the soak is only subtracted once from each hit; the Minion Groups hit points are 1 pool, not 4 in this case. so if the Group in this example had soak 3 or less then 2 would have been taken out by the hit as 13-3 = 10, 2 minions gone.

 

You defeat a minion with 5 wound threshold when it has 6 wounds (have to exceed the threshold). 

Edited by fatedtodie

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Have something environmental destroy the minion group. Just last night I had a player shooting at a minion group of 5 droids in a Hutt throneroom and roll two Triumphs plus a load of damage and advantages. I had him shoot the supports of the elaborate chandelier above them and crush the entire group with it. Be dramatic, don't just use triumphs as successes and straight mechanics, make them interesting.

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remember that the soak is only subtracted once from each hit; the Minion Groups hit points are 1 pool, not 4 in this case. so if the Group in this example had soak 3 or less then 2 would have been taken out by the hit as 13-3 = 10, 2 minions gone.

 

You defeat a minion with 5 wound threshold when it has 6 wounds (have to exceed the threshold). 

 

^ indeed per RAW.  Which has always thrown me as far as tracking minion group WT.  Wouldn't a more accurate accounting of minion WT include that extra point?  So the group of 4 would have WT of 24 instead of 20 and one drops at 6?

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remember that the soak is only subtracted once from each hit; the Minion Groups hit points are 1 pool, not 4 in this case. so if the Group in this example had soak 3 or less then 2 would have been taken out by the hit as 13-3 = 10, 2 minions gone.

 

You defeat a minion with 5 wound threshold when it has 6 wounds (have to exceed the threshold). 

 

^ indeed per RAW.  Which has always thrown me as far as tracking minion group WT.  Wouldn't a more accurate accounting of minion WT include that extra point?  So the group of 4 would have WT of 24 instead of 20 and one drops at 6?

 

Not quite.  A Minion group has a Wound Threshold (WT) equal to the sum of the total WT of the minions that make up the group (EotE, pg 390).  So, 4 Minions that each individually have a WT of 5 have a Minion Group WT of 20.

 

Individual members of the group are defeated as wounds applied to the group exceed their portion of the total WT of the group (EotE, pg 390).  So, when 6 wounds have been applied to the Minion Group WT of 20, one member of that group is defeated, as its contribution to the total is 5 WT.  When 11 wounds have been applied 2 members portions of the total (5+5=10) have been exceeded, so two minions drop.  This ends up consistent with the normal rules for WT (EotE, pg 215) as the last member and the group itself will be defeated when the total wounds done exceeds the total group WT amount.

 

Breakpoints work out as follows:

1-5 out of 20 WT = All 4 members up

6-10 out of 20 WT = 3 Members up, 1 Member defeated

11-15 out of 20 WT = 2 Members up, 2 Members defeated

16-20 out of 20 WT = 1 Member up, 3 Member defeated

21+ out of 20 WT = 0 Member up, 4 Members defeated

 

You can also look it like this:

 

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 |

                          6                       11                      16                      21

 

 

The real purpose for this, as far as I can discern it, is that it prevents overflow damage from being wasted on individual minions.  If you kept the minions in a group WT separate, and did 13 damage (after soak) to one minion with a WT of 5, you have definitely exceeded the WT, but since you really only needed 6 to exceed, you will have wasted 7 damage.  By pooling the WT but still dropping minions as their portion is exceeded, the whole 13 damage would be applied to the total, and following are example above, 2 minions would be dropped, and you would 2 points in to dropping a 3rd.

Edited by Worloch

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No one has answered the question sufficiently or clearly so far.  Let me re-state it (and ignore the whole "exceeding the threshold" thing). 

 

Let's make it Minion group 4 of 4WT with 2 soak. 

Player does 13 damage with two Triumphs. 

If both triumphs are used directly against the minion group in order to eliminate them. 

 

Which is 'correct'?  (If any)

 

A) All 4 minions eliminated (2 by Triumphs, 4WT each applied, 2 by the 11 net damage taking out the last 8WT with 3 left over) 

 

B) Two minions eliminated with 8 left in the minion pool. (2 by Triumphs b/c the Triumph counts as the hit and the damage is accounted for in the Triumphs)

 

C) Two minions eliminated with 5 left in the WT pool. (2 by Triumphs, each counting as 5 x 2T = 10, and then 1pt more.  5 being enough to exceed WT)

 

D) Two minions eliminated with 8 left in the WT pool. (2 by Triumphs, each counting as 4WT)

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Technically 2 dead from WT, and 1 from a crit per RAW as you can only cause a single crit with one hit.  So a total of 3 dead, whether you want to say the critted guy also had the extra wounds as well completely your call.

 

The only part wrong about this statement is per RAW exceeding the threshold means "defeated" not dead.

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Let's make it Minion group 4 of 4WT with 2 soak. 

Player does 13 damage with two Triumphs. 

If both triumphs are used directly against the minion group in order to eliminate them.

If the Player chooses to use a Triumph to Crit, that will eliminate One Minion. (Likewise a Crit generated from sufficient Advantage can also be used to eliminate a Minion from a group) The Player is not required to Crit on a Triumph and may spend the Triumph to do something else if he wishes.

 

You can only Crit once, so the second Triumph will have to be used for something else. Some people allow multi criting on minion groups, but that is a house rule.

 

After Soak conventional Damage will remove Two more (13 Damage - 2 Soak = 11 Wounds Inflicted).

 

The final result will be one minion near his Wound Threshold.

Edited by Ghostofman

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remember that the soak is only subtracted once from each hit; the Minion Groups hit points are 1 pool, not 4 in this case. so if the Group in this example had soak 3 or less then 2 would have been taken out by the hit as 13-3 = 10, 2 minions gone.

 

You defeat a minion with 5 wound threshold when it has 6 wounds (have to exceed the threshold). 

 

 

Face palm! forgot to add 1 to the damage like this:

 

 

 

 

 

remember that the soak is only subtracted once from each hit; the Minion Groups hit points are 1 pool, not 4 in this case. so if the Group in this example had soak 3 or less then 2 would have been taken out by the hit as 13-3 = 10, 2 minions gone.

 

You defeat a minion with 5 wound threshold when it has 6 wounds (have to exceed the threshold). 

 

^ indeed per RAW.  Which has always thrown me as far as tracking minion group WT.  Wouldn't a more accurate accounting of minion WT include that extra point?  So the group of 4 would have WT of 24 instead of 20 and one drops at 6?

 

Not quite.  A Minion group has a Wound Threshold (WT) equal to the sum of the total WT of the minions that make up the group (EotE, pg 390).  So, 4 Minions that each individually have a WT of 5 have a Minion Group WT of 20.

 

Individual members of the group are defeated as wounds applied to the group exceed their portion of the total WT of the group (EotE, pg 390).  So, when 6 wounds have been applied to the Minion Group WT of 20, one member of that group is defeated, as its contribution to the total is 5 WT.  When 11 wounds have been applied 2 members portions of the total (5+5=10) have been exceeded, so two minions drop.  This ends up consistent with the normal rules for WT (EotE, pg 215) as the last member and the group itself will be defeated when the total wounds done exceeds the total group WT amount.

 

Breakpoints work out as follows:

1-5 out of 20 WT = All 4 members up

6-10 out of 20 WT = 3 Members up, 1 Member defeated

11-15 out of 20 WT = 2 Members up, 2 Members defeated

16-20 out of 20 WT = 1 Member up, 3 Member defeated

21+ out of 20 WT = 0 Member up, 4 Members defeated

 

You can also look it like this:

 

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 |

                          6                       11                      16                      21

 

 

The real purpose for this, as far as I can discern it, is that it prevents overflow damage from being wasted on individual minions.  If you kept the minions in a group WT separate, and did 13 damage (after soak) to one minion with a WT of 5, you have definitely exceeded the WT, but since you really only needed 6 to exceed, you will have wasted 7 damage.  By pooling the WT but still dropping minions as their portion is exceeded, the whole 13 damage would be applied to the total, and following are example above, 2 minions would be dropped, and you would 2 points in to dropping a 3rd.

 

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Technically 2 dead from WT, and 1 from a crit per RAW as you can only cause a single crit with one hit.  So a total of 3 dead, whether you want to say the critted guy also had the extra wounds as well completely your call.

 

Alright!  That's the answer I was looking for. Thanks!

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