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wanderlust2

Can't Beat First Blood

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All info is descent is open, its in the first page of the quest guide. 

Its always a  little tricky with a game like decent where the OL is usually the player most likely to have read the rules so when they mess up the heroes tend to roll with it. It dosent help that the game has a lot of mechanics and moving parts which means that its easy to miss something.

The best thing to do is sit down as a group and read the rules, front to back, as a group so that everyone is on the same wavelength. 

Then read the FAQ, again, as a group, and finally post any further questions here where we are all happy to chip in and help resolve issues :)

 

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It now definitely sounds like the OL was missing a lot of things. He definitely didn't explain the quest objectives, and there wasn't even a read through of the flavor text for background purposes. He was killing the necro pet first every turn it was up because he said it gave a card just like downing a hero, and 4 health with no defense doesn't last long.

We had an archer, a necro, a discple(mine), and a warrior(he had Rage, if that helps with class). I was told I have to burn an action and a fatigue to use my heal and it wouldn't heal a player that was knocked out. He typically killed me first though, so it rarely mattered. We knew about using an action to rez another player, but it only gave 2 red dice of health back, which was often 4ish. I rarely got any fatigue back, so I either rested to use my heal or attcked. That disappeared quick the next turn.

We weren't aware of extra surges giving fatigue back. Our archer rarely used surges, but could've used the fatigue to move around more had we known.

 

Descent is very well balanced (in most quests) so doing one or two things wrong can  skew the game balance in favour of the OL or the Heroes (depending on what you do wrong). As it is carefully balanced you'll need to make sure all (or at least most) players knows the rules of the game. Otherwise there's a risk that something is handled incorrectly, which can really screw up the the game for everyone.

 

The most important mistake seems to be that you did not get the quest information. All information in the quest guide is open information. In my group the OL generally reads the whole page detailing the quest, to minimize the risk of misinterpretation or mistakes. The quest guide is also open for all the players to read if they wish.

 

Another big mistakes was that your heal was handled like an action. In my group we have had wins for the OL where we could see that the Hero players had taken a few sub optimized actions which led to their downfall. The point I'm trying to make is that Descent is all about action economy, i.e. trying to use your actions in the best way every turn. With this in mind loosing an action each time you heal can have a huge impact on the game balance. And it might also be that some of the other heroes had cards that were not actions but were considered actions?

 

So in conclusion. Try the game again, but make sure that everyone knows the rules. :)

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Not related to this but equipment or monsters with reach, can they reach over enemy heroes or monsters? Like if a enemy model is right next to you can you reach over it and hit the enemy behind?

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Not related to this but equipment or monsters with reach, can they reach over enemy heroes or monsters? Like if a enemy model is right next to you can you reach over it and hit the enemy behind?

You still need line of sight when you attack with reach. You could attack a hero that is behind another hero so long as you can also draw a direct line of sight.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Not related to this but equipment or monsters with reach, can they reach over enemy heroes or monsters? Like if a enemy model is right next to you can you reach over it and hit the enemy behind?

You still need line of sight when you attack with reach. You could attack a hero that is behind another hero so long as you can also draw a direct line of sight.

 

Thanks for the answer but does enemy models break line of sight?

 

Like in First Blood if the ettin blocks line of sight and the goblin is diagonally on the side of the ettin then I can't draw a straight line to the goblin that would not pass the ettin.

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Any figures block line of sight, even if they're friendly. Remember that line of sight is all about corners.You can still draw lines through the corners of blocked spaces, but not along their sides or through them. Look at the line of sight example in the rulebook to see what I mean.

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I definitely appreciate all of the advice provided here. I have done a quick read through of the rules, and there are a ton of things our OL either missed completely or misinterpreted. Now the tough bit will be broaching the subject with him. I get the feeling he read the rules once a long time ago, and then tried running purely from memory. The only part that really irks me is how he kept putting it down to his play style, never wondering to himself why we were having so much trouble.

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Like most things, this game requires participation and effort from all parties involved to reap the greatest benefit. OLs who are uninformed will either mislead similarly uninformed heroes, or be destroyed by knowledgeable ones. Uninformed heroes are likely to be disappointed by points of technical strategy utilized by the OL, or gang up on a correct OL to pressure him into playing incorrectly (even when you are correct, it is difficult to argue 1v4 if the rules are in dispute.) Even in my group, where the heroes trust that I know my way around the game and play honestly, they've required me to cite the rulebook/FAQ on certain things that made them uneasy.

Edited by Zaltyre

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I definitely appreciate all of the advice provided here. I have done a quick read through of the rules, and there are a ton of things our OL either missed completely or misinterpreted. Now the tough bit will be broaching the subject with him. I get the feeling he read the rules once a long time ago, and then tried running purely from memory. The only part that really irks me is how he kept putting it down to his play style, never wondering to himself why we were having so much trouble.

 

It can be tough discussing rules, but the other alternative (as I see it) is not playing at all. As you were having so much trouble in the introduction quest, you probably won't enjoy the rest of the game as the quests get harder. Descent is a really fun game, but it's a tactical boardgame so playing by the rules matter a lot for everyone enjoyment of the game.

 

I don't know if your OL (or your whole group) play any RPGs? The reason I'm asking is that I've played Descent (1ed, but still) with a long time RPG GMs who played as OL. In the beginning it did not work very well as he had a RPG GM mindset when playing Descent. But in an RPG the GM might change rules or make them up on the fly to fit the story, and in an RPG that can work really well and. But descent is a different kind of game. Descent has an RPG vibe to it, but it won't work if you apply RPG "logic" to the game.

 

Also, if your OL has played Descent 1ed and mix up rules from both games it will aslo affect the game. In the beginning we made some mistakes due to our knowledge of Descent 1, we assumed that things were handled the same way, for example large movement, which has really changed. So it's important to remember that Descent 1 and 2 have very different rules.

 

We found that it helps if everyone in the group tries to play as OL (and hero). That way everyone sees both sides of the table and it's easier to talk about the rules and how to interpret them correctly. My gaming group have even gone so far as to rotate OL during a campaign. So each player will play as OL for a few quests during the campaign and play as a hero during the other quests. So if you feel it's hard to talk about the rules with the OL, maybe play First blood with a different OL? And discuss the rules during play?

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Ouch...  Your overlord was really screwing up. 

I mean, my group made a couple mistakes(we didn't know about the surges for fatigue thing, either), but your OL seemed to be playing a different game. :)

 

Him not knowing the way to play the game screwed you pretty hard. :(

Edited by UberMagus

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I've only had the game for a little over a month, but seeing as how I was going to be running campaigns as a GM/OL, I set out to make sure to know the rules. That was why I read the rulebook over and over, played through it on my own a few times to get a feel for when situations happen and came here to ask questions when it became necessary. In order to have a smooth campaign and to get people interested in actually wanting to play, you have to have an OL that is responsible for knowing the game and allows new players to get a handle on how things run before trying to be as overbearing as possible. 

 

The situations that Zaltyre have described has already happened to me. A friend of mind lost 'First Blood' playing Trenloe and Shiver. He kept arguing that "Heroes should be allowed to react if anything enters a space adjacent to them" I explained calmly that wasn't in the rules and it would make the game seriously imbalanced. His mistake, the reason he lost was so deceptively simple...not putting Shiver in the two spaced lane that the Goblins had to travel through. Instead he placed him on the crossroad tile just adjacent to that lane and it allowed me to skirt around Shiver with the goblins without having to take any movement penalties to his Heroic Ability. I told him " use better tactics." And when he still wouldn't listen, I told him next time we play the quest that he take the OL spot and see it from that perspective. Point I'm trying to make here is what Zalt has described and what k7 suggests. 

 

You want a GM/OL that isn't arrogant to think he knows everything, but practiced enough to be able to deliver a well run and enjoyable experience. 

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Yeah, I'll be honest, my years of experience of playing tabletop RPGs does just as much harm as good. :)
I instinctively think of blocking line of sight and movement in particular ways, and I REALLY miss Atks of Opp.  :D

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I've only had the game for a little over a month, but seeing as how I was going to be running campaigns as a GM/OL, I set out to make sure to know the rules. That was why I read the rulebook over and over, played through it on my own a few times to get a feel for when situations happen and came here to ask questions when it became necessary. In order to have a smooth campaign and to get people interested in actually wanting to play, you have to have an OL that is responsible for knowing the game and allows new players to get a handle on how things run before trying to be as overbearing as possible. 

 

The situations that Zaltyre have described has already happened to me. A friend of mind lost 'First Blood' playing Trenloe and Shiver. He kept arguing that "Heroes should be allowed to react if anything enters a space adjacent to them" I explained calmly that wasn't in the rules and it would make the game seriously imbalanced. His mistake, the reason he lost was so deceptively simple...not putting Shiver in the two spaced lane that the Goblins had to travel through. Instead he placed him on the crossroad tile just adjacent to that lane and it allowed me to skirt around Shiver with the goblins without having to take any movement penalties to his Heroic Ability. I told him " use better tactics." And when he still wouldn't listen, I told him next time we play the quest that he take the OL spot and see it from that perspective. Point I'm trying to make here is what Zalt has described and what k7 suggests. 

 

You want a GM/OL that isn't arrogant to think he knows everything, but practiced enough to be able to deliver a well run and enjoyable experience. 

 

Don't goblin's have the scamper ability to let them crawl right over the heroes anyway?  

 

Great advice on the swapping of roles.  My daughter's whined and complained about how I was so OP as the overlord (yet they won the campaign!) so guess who is going to play OL next?!   :D

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Once all of the players have a reasonable understanding of the rules, I also advocate for rotating the role of OL and Heroes, at least once.

 

It will allow everyone to gain additional perspective as to the strengths and weaknesses of each role, and also provides a method of further "hammering in" a more advanced understanding of all of the rules.

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Don't goblin's have the scamper ability to let them crawl right over the heroes anyway?  

 

Great advice on the swapping of roles.  My daughter's whined and complained about how I was so OP as the overlord (yet they won the campaign!) so guess who is going to play OL next?!   :D

 

 

Yes, Scamper lets Goblins walk through hostile figures (Heroes). They are one of the few monsters that can do it. It doesn't stop Shiver's ability though, which states that any hostile figure moving into a space adjacent to him has to spend an additional movement point to do it. As the OL at the time of the game, I had never seen Shiver before, but spotted the glaring weakness of the ability- exiting a space adjacent to him does not handicap movement points. Even with Shiver moved into the extreme middle of the crossroads, he would not hinder any of the goblins movements. The only logical place to move Shiver then to is the narrow two lane pathway... the goblins are forced to move that way and give up movement points.  

 

I kinda forget what class he was playing Shiver as, but in this current campaign with some friends, he's playing Shiver as a Geomancer. As OL I'm kinda scared. 

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