Why is four B Wings w/ Accuracy Correctors not a "thing"?

[InquisitorJesus 11]

So... In the end the list as constructed worked beautifully. The lack of dice variance is amazing and not having to care about stress is a breath of fresh. You're able to use the entirety of the B Wings dial including the dreaded red maneuvers, besides the 2 K Turn, and still effectively engage the enemy minus Focus or Target Lock. I would definitely fly this again and I encourage others to do so as well.

[Bbrawler 8]

I gave this a try and really enjoyed it. the AC frees up alot of mental capacity to just focus on maneuvers. There is no struggle with an action, it makes decision making very simple. I found also that range 2 is the sweet spot, always 2 hits, no bonus for yourself or your target. I've been thinking that using 3 B with accuracy and 2 Z-95, will work well against the 4BZ because of consistency and a 1 point initiative bid.

[Magnus Grendel 11,679]

If BBBB-AC does become a thing, I shudder to see 4x TIE advanced with AC. They have AGI to use Focus for defense, or just the Evade action. They even have 16 points left to spike damage with missiles.

 

Which is just enough to pack a cluster missile each - which is the missile type which most benefits from the accuracy corrector, or a shield upgrade to boost their durability to match TIE Defenders.

[GiraffeandZebra 1,172]

It's not a thing because with one evade die there is nothing to spend actions on other than offense. With TLs or focus, you'll get 3 hits more times than not. FCS gets you a free offensive action, making barrel rolls and red maneuvers easier to take. Tactician makes it easier to come out ahead when jousting with other ships.

Everyone always gives FCS too much credit.  It is a great upgrade, for sure.  And it is a free offensive action...the second time you shoot at a ship.  It is not Push the Limit without stress, though people often act like it is that good.

 

If you need it, Accuracy Corrector will work on the first shot you take at a ship, every time you shoot at a ship.  FCS never will.

 

If three B-Wings shoot at a single target, and then the 4th takes it down, Accuracy corrector is still there for all of their next attacks, while target locks you just got from FCS go to waste.  

 

If you can't shoot at the ship you shot at last round because they are out of arc, you don't get to use a TL from FCS and it could go to waste if you choose to switch locks.

 

Accuracy Corrector is always on and always works.  FCS can be stronger for raw damage, but only if you can get good use out of those Target Locks. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by GiraffeandZebra

[Stone37 3,353]

 

It's not a thing because with one evade die there is nothing to spend actions on other than offense. With TLs or focus, you'll get 3 hits more times than not. FCS gets you a free offensive action, making barrel rolls and red maneuvers easier to take. Tactician makes it easier to come out ahead when jousting with other ships.

Everyone always gives FCS too much credit.  It is a great upgrade, for sure.  And it is a free offensive action...the second time you shoot at a ship.  It is not Push the Limit without stress, though people often act like it is that good.

 

If you need it, Accuracy Corrector will work on the first shot you take at a ship, every time you shoot at a ship.  FCS never will.

 

If three B-Wings shoot at a single target, and then the 4th takes it down, Accuracy corrector is still there for all of their next attacks, while target locks you just got from FCS go to waste.  

 

If you can't shoot at the ship you shot at last round because they are out of arc, you don't get to use a TL from FCS and it could go to waste if you choose to switch locks.

 

Accuracy Corrector is always on and always works.  FCS can be stronger for raw damage, but only if you can get good use out of those Target Locks. 

 

If you're averaging only 2 booms rolled per attack.....  you've already lost.  It's that 3rd (and sometimes 4th) boom that does the damage and gets the job done.  

[Ynot 670]

 

 

It's not a thing because with one evade die there is nothing to spend actions on other than offense. With TLs or focus, you'll get 3 hits more times than not. FCS gets you a free offensive action, making barrel rolls and red maneuvers easier to take. Tactician makes it easier to come out ahead when jousting with other ships.

Everyone always gives FCS too much credit.  It is a great upgrade, for sure.  And it is a free offensive action...the second time you shoot at a ship.  It is not Push the Limit without stress, though people often act like it is that good.

 

If you need it, Accuracy Corrector will work on the first shot you take at a ship, every time you shoot at a ship.  FCS never will.

 

If three B-Wings shoot at a single target, and then the 4th takes it down, Accuracy corrector is still there for all of their next attacks, while target locks you just got from FCS go to waste.  

 

If you can't shoot at the ship you shot at last round because they are out of arc, you don't get to use a TL from FCS and it could go to waste if you choose to switch locks.

 

Accuracy Corrector is always on and always works.  FCS can be stronger for raw damage, but only if you can get good use out of those Target Locks. 

 

If you're averaging only 2 booms rolled per attack.....  you've already lost.  It's that 3rd (and sometimes 4th) boom that does the damage and gets the job done.  

 

What you are forgetting is that are GUARANTEED 2 hits per attack.  Sure you may roll more and you still TL when you can but knowing that you are guaranteed 2 hits takes some pressure off the dice.

 

If you are consistently getting more than 2 hits your dice must be "special"

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

I'll definitely try it out sometime. I'm starting to like the idea of it, being able to move however you please and use red maneuvers as much as you want.

All these 4 B lists or BBBBZ are so good that it's hard to choose which upgrade to fly with them.

[Stone37 3,353]

 

 

 

It's not a thing because with one evade die there is nothing to spend actions on other than offense. With TLs or focus, you'll get 3 hits more times than not. FCS gets you a free offensive action, making barrel rolls and red maneuvers easier to take. Tactician makes it easier to come out ahead when jousting with other ships.

Everyone always gives FCS too much credit.  It is a great upgrade, for sure.  And it is a free offensive action...the second time you shoot at a ship.  It is not Push the Limit without stress, though people often act like it is that good.

 

If you need it, Accuracy Corrector will work on the first shot you take at a ship, every time you shoot at a ship.  FCS never will.

 

If three B-Wings shoot at a single target, and then the 4th takes it down, Accuracy corrector is still there for all of their next attacks, while target locks you just got from FCS go to waste.  

 

If you can't shoot at the ship you shot at last round because they are out of arc, you don't get to use a TL from FCS and it could go to waste if you choose to switch locks.

 

Accuracy Corrector is always on and always works.  FCS can be stronger for raw damage, but only if you can get good use out of those Target Locks. 

 

If you're averaging only 2 booms rolled per attack.....  you've already lost.  It's that 3rd (and sometimes 4th) boom that does the damage and gets the job done.  

 

What you are forgetting is that are GUARANTEED 2 hits per attack.  Sure you may roll more and you still TL when you can but knowing that you are guaranteed 2 hits takes some pressure off the dice.

 

If you are consistently getting more than 2 hits your dice must be "special"

 

They are not guaranteed 2 hits.  They are 2 booms that can be defended against.  Two booms just doesn't drop ships in the time B-wings need to dispatch of their target.  For many ships and pilots, two booms just plain doesn't hit!

[adder 75]

Accuracy corrector says you MAY cancel your dice. So you don't lose the possibility of the third or fourth hit. Unless, of course, you didn't have target lock when you were attacking a ship for the second straight turn and you rolled exactly one blank (or 2 at R1 or eyes with no focus). But of you roll 3 or 4 hits, don't use it and keep em.

[GiraffeandZebra 1,172]

They are not guaranteed 2 hits.  They are 2 booms that can be defended against.  Two booms just doesn't drop ships in the time B-wings need to dispatch of their target.  For many ships and pilots, two booms just plain doesn't hit!

 

If 2 guaranteed booms with the chance of 3 booms isn't enough as you claim, and action stacking with FCS is required, then BBBBZ would not be one of the better lists in the game, as it trades in the action stack of the FCS's for two dice on a z-95.

 

Sure, FCS is better at times if you are facing high agility targets.  Your chance to get 3 hits with Focus+TL is about 40% higher than having just one of the two.  But you can still hit a high agility ship without action stacking. And any high agility ship is likely to also be maneuverable enough to avoid your arcs.  Those will be the rounds you get your TLs and get your action stack going.

 

And if you must dispose of ships quickly when flying B-Wings, then AC is the way to go.  On a first pass attack, assuming you get your actions, the expected hits with AC are 9.69.  The expected hits with FCS is 9.00.  Second pass, FCS pulls ahead by about 1 hit...but only if you assume that all four of your ships get to attack the same ship they did in the previous round and none of your ships lose an action.

 

Not to mention that with AC, unless you need the focus to get 3 booms, you never have to use it on offense.  It is a small defensive gain, but a defensive gain nonetheless.

 

Acting like one is just tremendously superior to the other I just can't understand.

Edited April 28, 2015 by GiraffeandZebra

[Stone37 3,353]

 

They are not guaranteed 2 hits.  They are 2 booms that can be defended against.  Two booms just doesn't drop ships in the time B-wings need to dispatch of their target.  For many ships and pilots, two booms just plain doesn't hit!

 

If 2 guaranteed booms with the chance of 3 booms isn't enough as you claim, and action stacking with FCS is required, then BBBBZ would not be one of the better lists in the game, as it trades in the action stack of the FCS's for two dice on a z-95.

This is not why BBBBZ is popular and winning in the current meta.  It has everything to do with the rise in popularity of the 60 minute round.  BBBBZ is not as efficient at removing opponent's ships as BBBB w/ FCS is.  What it does better is outlast.  You only have to win by 12.  It wins the math game in a short 60 minute round.

 

So, if you remove the Z in this build for an upgrade, AC is not doing you any favors.  FCS grants you a target lock next round.  (Focus and TL is a deadly combo)  Adv. Sensors would be the only other System I'd even consider as it keeps your Bs from loosing actions from red maneuvers or from being blocked.

[Ynot 670]

lol - this is going nowhere.  Use what you want.  I just wanted to chime in to report my son won a Store Championship and Spring tournament with this list against very good players in the area.

 

If FCS works for you then fine.  If advanced sensors works for you, taht is fine too.  The OP asked about the BBBB+AC build and I provided real results - not theoretical dice percentages.

[Stone37 3,353]

lol - this is going nowhere.  Use what you want.  I just wanted to chime in to report my son won a Store Championship and Spring tournament with this list against very good players in the area.

 

If FCS works for you then fine.  If advanced sensors works for you, taht is fine too.  The OP asked about the BBBB+AC build and I provided real results - not theoretical dice percentages.

 

The OP also asked why AC on four B-wings is "not a thing".  That's where the mathwing answer came in.  I agree with you when you state play with what works for you.  You'll always fly a list your comfortable with better than a list you have no experience with regardless of the mathematical advantages of said list.  

 

For those of us that fly 4 Bs and have done some 100s of times over at a competitive level, ever little percentage point and hundredth of a chance matters.  It's like the grind to shave a tenth of a second off of a really good lap time in racing.  Not all of us play at that level nor even want to.  That's what is so great about this game.  It can be enjoyed casually or competitively.  I still like to get together with friends and run crazy lists that are built for fun rather than the highest chance to win.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Stone37

[GiraffeandZebra 1,172]

I've reached that conclusion as well. I can list half a dozen reasons why a person might want to consider AC over FCS. The response is to try to counter one of those reasons with an unsupported claim, often repeating the same claim over and over, and ignore the rest. All the while, act like FCS has a 100% duty cycle and is the only way a person can possibly shoot down high agility ships. Then somehow claim they have used MathWing without showing any math. As I recall it, I'm the only one that provided numbers at any point to back any of my claims.

Talking in absolutes is a red flag that someone understands the gist of something without understanding the intricacies, and you can reach a lot of different answers with different (or bad) assumptions.

My frustration runneth over. One provides consistent damage with low variance. The other can provide more damage spikes, and possibly higher damage, but only if you can keep the duty cycle high. It doesn't make much difference, and the difference is small enough that with the number of assumptions you have to make to apply numbers, it is in the noise. I'm not saying I'm in love with Accuracy Corrector or anything, and FCS is good, but I don't believe one is strictly superior in some sort of auto-include manner, because they are just different. You can accept that, or not, it isn't worth me losing my cool over it any more.

Edited April 28, 2015 by GiraffeandZebra

[adder 75]

Why not run 2 Bs with AC and 2 with FCS? Or would that be so awesome it'd be like cheating?

[GiraffeandZebra 1,172]

Why not run 2 Bs with AC and 2 with FCS? Or would that be so awesome it'd be like cheating?

Because then you have to argue with someone who thinks Advanced Sensors is clearly superior. After that, it is just a slippery slope down to sensor jammer.

Edited April 28, 2015 by GiraffeandZebra

[InquisitorJesus 11]

Wow... This is why I just observe and never post. When someone posts something outside the norm the natives get very restless since it goes against established norms. Probability and statistical analysis is great... Until you land on the outside of the curve. The list as presented eliminates dice variance. It's apples and oranges to compare the Acc Corrector to any other upgrade card. Turn the original post title and the included questions which only one maybe two people even thought to address in to some pseudo flaming war is uncalled for. Your method, nor my method is the ONLY method. I will go back to lurk mode now.

[GiraffeandZebra 1,172]

Wow... This is why I just observe and never post. When someone posts something outside the norm the natives get very restless since it goes against established norms. Probability and statistical analysis is great... Until you land on the outside of the curve. The list as presented eliminates dice variance. It's apples and oranges to compare the Acc Corrector to any other upgrade card. Turn the original post title and the included questions which only one maybe two people even thought to address in to some pseudo flaming war is uncalled for. Your method, nor my method is the ONLY method. I will go back to lurk mode now.

I wasn't attempting to turn the thread into a flame war, I apologize. In some ways, the point I was trying to make is in the same vein as yours - people have a tendency to arrive at an answer around here of "this is best" and regurgitate that as THE answer. I often find myself on the other side trying to see (and sometimes explain) why something that is not the norm can work. I wasn't trying to convey that my way was the only way, but in fact that either way was pretty equally valid. I guess that was unclear.

Sometimes, it leads to an interesting conversation. Often, it is the "I can't budge from my original position" so typical of Internet forums. Couple that with a person easily frustrated by such things (me), and well, there you go. I never learn though. Just keep doing it.

Edited April 28, 2015 by GiraffeandZebra

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

Wow... This is why I just observe and never post. When someone posts something outside the norm the natives get very restless since it goes against established norms. Probability and statistical analysis is great... Until you land on the outside of the curve. The list as presented eliminates dice variance. It's apples and oranges to compare the Acc Corrector to any other upgrade card. Turn the original post title and the included questions which only one maybe two people even thought to address in to some pseudo flaming war is uncalled for. Your method, nor my method is the ONLY method. I will go back to lurk mode now.

 

not to stir what seems to be a boiling kettle of a thread, but

 

having experienced the magical "outside the curve" land, very often at my great expense, I can tell you that AC does not eliminate dice variance

 

you forgot about my opponent, and I don't mean the human being

 

 

 

Personally, I don't see much merit in AC on the B-wing. I think AC will be huge on the Advance and not just because it maxes out his 2-die innate but because the sneaky git has an evade action which he can take without compromising his offense   I'd also love it on generic Vipers so they can focus up their 3 agility to compensate for their lack of awesome pilot ability, but we all know how Virago turned out...

 

All the B-wing has is barrel-roll, which while amazing to have as an option is not something I plan to spend 3 points on enabling because I'm sure as hell not using it every round. With FCS, not only do I get action-insurance but I also get to stack it with my focus for very good odds at maxed out rolls to beat through high agility and high health alike.

 

Not to say that we all have to jump on FCS' lap, though. The B-wing is a feat of a ship in that it's probably the single most versatile in all of X-wing. Run it FCS, Sensors, Flechette, Ion, Tacticians, HLC, bloody nothing and you'll get a wildly varied experience but nonetheless a very effective ship.

Edited April 29, 2015 by ficklegreendice

[ishikabe 60]

I vote AC as my fave here.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I think AC vs. FCS on B-Wings really depends on the current local meta. In a meta with a lot of two ship builds, it's going to be hard to beat FCS. If you are facing a lot of 5+ ship lists AC really shines. When you've got a bunch of two attack ships shooting at you, a focus token can pay off as a defensive action.