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TenuousGrip

Question about "Opening Salvo" objective

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Could someone post again the exact logic they believe prevents adding in AND ROLLING black die to a medium/long range shot using Opening Salvo? Since components beat rules reference, even if the rules reference were clear that no matter the source, dice cannot be used beyond their range ruler distance - which I cannot find - the golden rule would still supercede that.

So, could someone post that logic again? I can't find it here or in the rules.

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I'm sorry if my last post came off as condescending.  I didn't mean to insult anyone.  My goals in posting here is to learn more about the game and to make sure everyone is on the same page.  When I say "rules experts," I know we have all had the game the same amount of time.  However, interpreting rules for games like this is definitely a skill, which can only get better if you practice it.  There are a lot of people who have a vast amount of experience with other games and are really good at interpreting rules. That doesn't mean they're word is law, but if all those people agree as to how a particular rule works, then that's most likely that case.  Unless of course the writers truly made a mistake, in which case eventually errata will be released to that effect.

 

Again, I don't mean to offend.  Rereading my last post, I can see I kinda came off as a ****.  I enjoy teaching almost as much as I enjoy learning.  Since this thread is getting lengthy, I'll summarize both side's key points for anyone just jumping in.

 

Those who say range does not affect usable dice in the modify dice step:

 

1.)  The range ruler is only mentioned in the roll attack dice step.  It states:  "gather only dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.  The ruler is never mentioned at any point hereafter.

2.)  Step 2 is to roll those dice that were gathered. AFTER that, step 3, is modify dice step.  Under add, it says: roll and unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

3.)  As range is not mentioned at all in the add dice step, appropriate color would be the the color that the card tells you to roll.

4.)  Golden rule, cover of booklet, card abilities take precedence over RR for any contradiction.  So even if "appropriate" is interpreted as matching the range ruler, the card explicitly telling you to roll X <color> dice would override that anyways.

5.)  There is nothing that would make us believe that red blue and black inherently mean long medium and short range respectively outside of forming the initial attack pool based on armament.

6.)  Dominator says at close/medium range, add 2 blue dice . . . so if blue dice were inherently medium range, why would they say that on this card and not on others?  

 

Those who say abilities that add dice are restricted by range.

 

1.)  The main opposition says that the phrase "appropriate color" in the add dice step implicitly means the color of dice in the modify dice step has to match the range ruler.

2.)  The "dominator" argument is invalid, as the card is just reiterating that you can't use blue dice at long range, even though other cards don't follow this same formula.

 

 

Looking through all the posts, those seem to be the main arguments for both sides.  If anyone has anything to add I can edit.  

Edited by willismaximus

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p. 7 of the RR:

 

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool. 

 

The word 'appropriate' is used on p. 2 of the RR, even though this event would have already passed. The salvo card does NOT say to roll the die, just to add to the attack pool, which pushes the timing to resolving attack effects.
 

 

2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler. 

 

I agree about the FAQ needed. Someone showed a preview of a card for the Assault Frigate MkII that says it can add a black die to the attack pool when a ship has already been attacked this round (something to that effect, I am probably way off on the wording but too lazy to go snooping around more). This card would have the same fate as the opening salvo (for 2nd player) when played. For only 5? points though, wouldn't adding a black die to any attack be a bit overpowered? I am just trying to take a step back from the rules for that opinion and think about game design a bit.

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p. 7 of the RR:

 

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool. 

 

The word 'appropriate' is used on p. 2 of the RR, even though this event would have already passed. The salvo card does NOT say to roll the die, just to add to the attack pool, which pushes the timing to resolving attack effects.

 

 

2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler. 

 

I agree about the FAQ needed. Someone showed a preview of a card for the Assault Frigate MkII that says it can add a black die to the attack pool when a ship has already been attacked this round (something to that effect, I am probably way off on the wording but too lazy to go snooping around more). This card would have the same fate as the opening salvo (for 2nd player) when played. For only 5? points though, wouldn't adding a black die to any attack be a bit overpowered? I am just trying to take a step back from the rules for that opinion and think about game design a bit.

I would think that the reason it's not overpowered is because of the difficulty of getting the same ship in two arcs simultaneously.  One black dice I feel is a reasonable reward for pulling it off as well as spending the extra 5 fleet points.

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Oh, I think I see the confusion on paragon.  As its written now (may change) it says any ship YOU have attacked.  It doesn't mean any ship that has been attacked at all, as YOU refers to the ship that owns the upgrade card.  Was that why you thought it may be OP?

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Could someone post again the exact logic they believe prevents adding in AND ROLLING black die to a medium/long range shot using Opening Salvo? Since components beat rules reference, even if the rules reference were clear that no matter the source, dice cannot be used beyond their range ruler distance - which I cannot find - the golden rule would still supercede that.So, could someone post that logic again? I can't find it here or in the rules.

I believe the logic is that the range ruler doesn't have a black icon next to the red one at "long" range, which I could see "from a certain point of view" but it doesn't make it the truth.

I think it may be best to dissect the card and its purpose, in general an objective card is a card the gives the second player a slight edge for giving up initiative.

1. The first part of the card established that the benefit of the card only happens for the first attack of any ship. So once you've attacked with the ship you cannot hold onto it, this is important because the turns on this game are limited, meaning a player is unlikely to hold off attacking for a round to just to get into a more beneficial range. Essentially you will most likely attack as soon as possible, usually meaning with whatever red dice your ship may have.

2. Defines the benefit to the first player 2 red dice, seems pretty good but obviously not as desirable as black dice.

3. Defines the benefit of the second player, "he adds 2 dice, each of ANY color". Now for me that reads as it is but for arguements sake let's say the second player has his turn to attack and he is at long range, if this card is how some others said he would only get 2 red dice for his first attack, what slight benefit is that over the first player? It would be the same as the first player, why would the card say "any" in the first place? So he holds his attack, sacrificing 1 or 2 rounds of attack to gain the most benefit but sacrificing even more? I think not.

My case rests.

Edit: Changed spelling.

Edited by skyhwk290

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I agree with that. But that is also 'intent-based logic'.

The rules-based logic is that the range/color only applies to gathering the initial dice. Sequencing, keywords and golden rule all indicate any, with no range restriction. So, we add whatever dice the second player wants with Opening Salvo.

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Oh, I think I see the confusion on paragon.  As its written now (may change) it says any ship YOU have attacked.  It doesn't mean any ship that has been attacked at all, as YOU refers to the ship that owns the upgrade card.  Was that why you thought it may be OP?

Ah yup! Sorry to bring in more confusion, but yeah, that would require some strong piloting to do wouldn't it? Okay, my bad! Easier to get that extra black die at close range anyways I suppose. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Oh, I think I see the confusion on paragon. As its written now (may change) it says any ship YOU have attacked. It doesn't mean any ship that has been attacked at all, as YOU refers to the ship that owns the upgrade card. Was that why you thought it may be OP?

PG 13 of the RRG under Upgrades states that anytime an Upgrade Card effects state "you" it is refering to the equipped ship. Just adding the citation.

Edited by ScottieATF

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So, we add whatever dice the second player wants with Opening Salvo.

I would agree.

The idea that Black dice are short range only, is logically flawed. Just because black dice are currently limited in the attack pool doesn't mean that they're only useable at short range. There could be an upgrade that says 'add X black dice to a long range shot'. You can not think of Red dice as being long range, blue medium and black short. That is simply the way things happen to work right now.

Since it says 'Any Dice' you do exactly that. There are no rules at this state in the game that limit what dice you can roll based on the range ruler. So there's no reason you couldn't roll black dice as part of that attack.

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So, we add whatever dice the second player wants with Opening Salvo.

I would agree.

The idea that Black dice are short range only, is logically flawed. Just because black dice are currently limited in the attack pool doesn't mean that they're only useable at short range. There could be an upgrade that says 'add X black dice to a long range shot'. You can not think of Red dice as being long range, blue medium and black short. That is simply the way things happen to work right now.

Since it says 'Any Dice' you do exactly that. There are no rules at this state in the game that limit what dice you can roll based on the range ruler. So there's no reason you couldn't roll black dice as part of that attack.

 

 

Perfect example of the bold bit.  Major Rhymer's spoiled text allows your squadrons to attack ships at medium range instead of distance 1.  Rhymer and his TIE Bombers only have black die for their anti-ship pool.  The logic that black die can only be used at close range severely dampens Rhymer's ability, something I can't imagine the designers intending.

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Major Rhymer's spoiled text allows your squadrons to attack ships at medium range instead of distance 1.  Rhymer and his TIE Bombers only have black die for their anti-ship pool.  The logic that black die can only be used at close range severely dampens Rhymer's ability, something I can't imagine the designers intending.

Actually, Rhymer's text reinforces the idea that black dice can only be used at short range - if they could be used beyond that, the card would simply say "can attack ships at short-medium" - the clause of "using all dice in your battery armament" would be unnecessary if black dice could normally be used beyond short range. But the card is needed to specifically allow attacks beyond short range (although the example isn't perfect as it's a squadron and not s ship).

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Major Rhymer's spoiled text allows your squadrons to attack ships at medium range instead of distance 1.  Rhymer and his TIE Bombers only have black die for their anti-ship pool.  The logic that black die can only be used at close range severely dampens Rhymer's ability, something I can't imagine the designers intending.

Actually, Rhymer's text reinforces the idea that black dice can only be used at short range - if they could be used beyond that, the card would simply say "can attack ships at short-medium" - the clause of "using all dice in your battery armament" would be unnecessary if black dice could normally be used beyond short range. But the card is needed to specifically allow attacks beyond short range (although the example isn't perfect as it's a squadron and not s ship).

As discussed earlier, modifications to armaments are affected by range for the purposes of initiating an attack. No one in this thread has refuted that. The issue is about the modify dice step, namely adding dice. Rhymer has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, and has no bearing on either side of the argument. Also, I caution using unreleased cards as support, as they are subject to change.

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I would totally be fine allowing black die to be rolled at long range if added to the attack pool if the word 'appropriate' in the following was more specific or removed.

Add:When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

But they put that word in for a reason. If it read. . .

Add:When a die is added, roll it into the attack pool.

. . . this thread would be a couple of replies in and done.

I want to roll blacks but I just feel a little naughty if I did.

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Major Rhymer's spoiled text allows your squadrons to attack ships at medium range instead of distance 1.  Rhymer and his TIE Bombers only have black die for their anti-ship pool.  The logic that black die can only be used at close range severely dampens Rhymer's ability, something I can't imagine the designers intending.

Actually, Rhymer's text reinforces the idea that black dice can only be used at short range - if they could be used beyond that, the card would simply say "can attack ships at short-medium" - the clause of "using all dice in your battery armament" would be unnecessary if black dice could normally be used beyond short range. But the card is needed to specifically allow attacks beyond short range (although the example isn't perfect as it's a squadron and not s ship).

As discussed earlier, modifications to armaments are affected by range for the purposes of initiating an attack. No one in this thread has refuted that. The issue is about the modify dice step, namely adding dice. Rhymer has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, and has no bearing on either side of the argument. Also, I caution using unreleased cards as support, as they are subject to change.

I didn't bring up Rhymer, but I was responding to his (currently) known text being brought up with a logical, rules-based point - and I did mention that the example isn't perfect.

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Major Rhymer's spoiled text allows your squadrons to attack ships at medium range instead of distance 1.  Rhymer and his TIE Bombers only have black die for their anti-ship pool.  The logic that black die can only be used at close range severely dampens Rhymer's ability, something I can't imagine the designers intending.

Actually, Rhymer's text reinforces the idea that black dice can only be used at short range - if they could be used beyond that, the card would simply say "can attack ships at short-medium" - the clause of "using all dice in your battery armament" would be unnecessary if black dice could normally be used beyond short range. But the card is needed to specifically allow attacks beyond short range (although the example isn't perfect as it's a squadron and not s ship).

As discussed earlier, modifications to armaments are affected by range for the purposes of initiating an attack. No one in this thread has refuted that. The issue is about the modify dice step, namely adding dice. Rhymer has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, and has no bearing on either side of the argument. Also, I caution using unreleased cards as support, as they are subject to change.

I didn't bring up Rhymer, but I was responding to his (currently) known text being brought up with a logical, rules-based point - and I did mention that the example isn't perfect.

 

I know, I was referring to both posts. And it's not that the example is imperfect, it is completely irrelevant, even though what you said is correct about the card needing to stipulate "all of the dice in your armament."  Since it is referring to armament, which is used in determining an attack in the first place, then yes, the range ruler comes into play.  However, this has no bearing on the add dice step as seen in opening salvo, dominator, etc.

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I would totally be fine allowing black die to be rolled at long range if added to the attack pool if the word 'appropriate' in the following was more specific or removed.

Add:When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

But they put that word in for a reason. If it read. . .

Add:When a die is added, roll it into the attack pool.

. . . this thread would be a couple of replies in and done.

I want to roll blacks but I just feel a little naughty if I did.

Please consider, for what you say to be true about the "appropriate" clause, never mind the fact that the mountain of evidence that supports the contrary, you would have to ignore the "golden rule" that says if there is a contradiction, the card/effect always takes precedence.  The opposite would have to be true for the word "appropriate" to even be relevant, as the card tells you explicitly what to do.  That's kinda the idea behind abilities.  They let you do things that you normally would not be allowed to do.  Otherwise, what's the point of having an ability?

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 However, this has no bearing on the add dice step as seen in opening salvo, dominator, etc.

I agree with that assessment of Opening Salvo and Dominator because they specify the type of dice that can be added (including "any color" with OS). But I disagree with adding any color dice in other situations.

Page 7

Modifying Dice

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

What is the appropriate color for dice at long range?

An FAQ entry is needed.

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Page 7

Modifying Dice

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

What is the appropriate color for dice at long range?

An FAQ entry is needed.

 

Appropriate as in the colors called for.  If the card says "roll blue dice", you would roll unused blue dice.  If the card says "any dice", you would roll any dice.

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Page 7

Modifying Dice

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

What is the appropriate color for dice at long range?

An FAQ entry is needed.

Appropriate as in the colors called for.  If the card says "roll blue dice", you would roll unused blue dice.  If the card says "any dice", you would roll any dice.

Truth

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Page 7

Modifying Dice

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

What is the appropriate color for dice at long range?

An FAQ entry is needed.

Appropriate as in the colors called for.  If the card says "roll blue dice", you would roll unused blue dice.  If the card says "any dice", you would roll any dice.

Which is exactly what I said, yet you choose to delete that part of my reply, for some reason.

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Page 7

Modifying Dice

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

What is the appropriate color for dice at long range?

An FAQ entry is needed.

Appropriate as in the colors called for.  If the card says "roll blue dice", you would roll unused blue dice.  If the card says "any dice", you would roll any dice.

Which is exactly what I said, yet you choose to delete that part of my reply, for some reason.

The part I quoted looked like you asking a question and then saying you wanted an FAQ. I was attempting to answer the question.

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What other situations are you even talking about then Headache?

You've been asserting, for pages, that the dice colors are inherently restricted by range. Is that no longer your position, or just in regards to Openning Salvo? And if it is the later then what other situations are you coming up with?

Edited by ScottieATF

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What is the appropriate color for dice at long range?

The appropriate color is any color that the rules allow you to use.

For the initial attack pool the appropriate color is what the range ruler says, namely Red. Once you move past that step, the appropriate colors are based on what the upgrade or other rule allows you to do.

For example the Dominator title tells you what the appropriate color dice are, namely blue. Blue dice are not inherently limited to short and medium range either, but the title does limit your ability to add those dice to only medium and short range.

Or the Command Concentrate Fire which lists the appropriate dice as only those dice used in the attack pool.

There is nothing in the rules that state that Black = Short, Blue = Medium and Red = Long. Only rule that does anything of the sort is what dice are appropriate to the attack pool. You can not apply that rule to all other steps unless the rules actually say to do so.

Add to that the fact the every instance of adding dice in the modify dice step qualifies what dice are allowed, which wouldn't need to be done if dice were inherently limited leaves only one logical interpretation of the objective.

Of course FFG has in the past made ruling that are completely illogical and inconsistent with the rules...

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