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TenuousGrip

Question about "Opening Salvo" objective

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I don't have that much to add, other that I agree that you may add these dice regardless of range. Like willismaximus says, the dice themselves are not inherently range dependent, you just remove "unappropriated" dice at a certain step of the attack. Whatever happens after that are not affected by the range, unless otherwise is stated in the specific card/ability.

 

In order for the ability to be dependent of range, it would have to be worded like for example Enhanced armaments (ie. adding dice to a battery armaments before the range is checked), or Concentrate fire (ie. adding dice to the established attack pool, after the range check).

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Also taking the 'there' is no range dice just colours argument to an extreme - it would mean you could add 2 dice to any shot at any range as it doesn't specify a range. SO shooting 2 black dice across the table would be fine (Bazinga...)

I'm not sure why you think this would mean you could declare a target ignoring range restrictions.  Initially determining a legal target depends on range and the dice colors of your base attack (among other things).  AFTER that step is when you modify dice, which is when the card effect occurs.  Your target is already determined to be legal at this point. 

 

And I disagree that this hasn't been clarified.  The card is clear.  There is zero ambiguity behind "add X dice, each of any color..."  Card effects take precedence over any contradiction in the RR, real or imagined.      

 

 

I wasn't really suggesting that - hence the bazinga tag....   :)

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2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.

 

From the Rules Reference guide page 2.

 

Your initial pool of dice is restricted by range.

 

The page 7 rules says 

 

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

 

It still says appropriate color. Back to page two "Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler" 

 

So, still no black at long range.

An appropriate color die is referencing the dice allowed to be added by the effect.

If the ability says blue then an appropriate dice would only be blue. If it said any dice already in the attack pool then an appropriate dice would be any color in the attack pool. If the ability says any color dice then any color of dice would be appropriate.

The rules for adding dice mention absolutely nothing about the dice needing to be appropriate for the range of the attack.

You even mention the specific difference in your qoutes. "Appropriate Color" and "Appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler" are two different statements. Why the two different statements if they mean the same thing as you state. The answer is they don't mean the same thing.

And again you have the Dominator title which specifically restricts the ability to close-medium. What's the point of that restriction if blue dice and inherently restricted to that range anyway.

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Also taking the 'there' is no range dice just colours argument to an extreme - it would mean you could add 2 dice to any shot at any range as it doesn't specify a range. SO shooting 2 black dice across the table would be fine (Bazinga...)

I'm not sure why you think this would mean you could declare a target ignoring range restrictions.  Initially determining a legal target depends on range and the dice colors of your base attack (among other things).  AFTER that step is when you modify dice, which is when the card effect occurs.  Your target is already determined to be legal at this point. 

 

And I disagree that this hasn't been clarified.  The card is clear.  There is zero ambiguity behind "add X dice, each of any color..."  Card effects take precedence over any contradiction in the RR, real or imagined.      

 

 

I wasn't really suggesting that - hence the bazinga tag....   :)

 

 

Lol, I gotcha, I was just in serious harcore mode I guess :D  Rules are serious business!

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Just when I begin to see the sense in the any dice at any range because it doesn't say that dice equate to range FFG release the overview video which states that the hull attacks are determined by the range of their weapons shown by the colours - mmmmmm wish they would clarify it and put us out our misery.

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What FFG says in a demo video is of very little consequence to the rules of the game.

You can find many examples of FFG preview/stratedgy articles that are not in keeping with the actual rules of the game.

Additionally the turn of phrase you describe is correct as it applies to your initial attack roll.

Edited by ScottieATF

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And again you have the Dominator title which specifically restricts the ability to close-medium. What's the point of that restriction if blue dice and inherently restricted to that range anyway.

 

 

It could be just to specify that the ability only adds blue dice and that it cant be use at long range.

If the card said 'While attacking at close-medium range, you may spend up to 2 shields from any of your hull zones to add that number of blue dice to your attack pool" people could interpret that as allowing them to use blue dice during a long range attack.

Edited by dj0311

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And again you have the Dominator title which specifically restricts the ability to close-medium. What's the point of that restriction if blue dice and inherently restricted to that range anyway.

 

 

It could be just to specify that the ability only adds blue dice and that it cant be use at long range.

If the card said 'While attacking at close-medium range, you may spend up to 2 shields from any of your hull zones to add that number of blue dice to your attack pool" people count interpret that as allowing them to use blue dice during a long range attack.

 

If it was written that way, then that is exactly what it would mean, which is Scottie's point.  They had to include that extra clause in order to make the ability only work at medium and close range.  Otherwise yes, they would work at long range too.

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And again you have the Dominator title which specifically restricts the ability to close-medium. What's the point of that restriction if blue dice and inherently restricted to that range anyway.

 

 

It could be just to specify that the ability only adds blue dice and that it cant be use at long range.

If the card said 'While attacking at close-medium range, you may spend up to 2 shields from any of your hull zones to add that number of blue dice to your attack pool" people could interpret that as allowing them to use blue dice during a long range attack.

 

If it was written that way, then that is exactly what it would mean, which is Scottie's point.  They had to include that extra clause in order to make the ability only work at medium and close range.  Otherwise yes, they would work at long range too.

 

I mean the point of the specific range mention could be forethought to a topic like this. Perhaps they specifically listed the range so people wouldn't think to go beyond the (possible) inherent range restriction and Opening Salvo is missing something in its text. 

 

I'm on the fence with this, I can see it going either way.

Edited by dj0311

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For the argument that dice are inherently restricted by range to work you have to

A) Assume FFG intended it but did not explicitly state it in the rules. Particularly in any of the section on Modifying Dice.

B) Accept that FFG added what amounts to superfluous text to the Dominator title as a reminder of a rule that was never explicitly stated. And yet omitted that same "reminder" in other instances where it would be needed (Opening Salvo).

Honestly, that just amounts to poor logic. You are jumping through alot of hoops to avoid having to accept the more logical conclusion.

Specifically that there is no mention of any inherent range restriction to added dice. Not because FFG forgot, but because it doesn't exist. Also, that the Dominator title has it's stated restriction for a reason, as opposed to being a superfluous reminder. And that other effects without thier own stated restrictions function at face value.

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For the argument that dice are inherently restricted by range to work you have to

A) Assume FFG intended it but did not explicitly state it in the rules. Particularly in any of the section on Modifying Dice.

B) Accept that FFG added what amounts to superfluous text to the Dominator title as a reminder of a rule that was never explicitly stated. And yet omitted that same "reminder" in other instances where it would be needed (Opening Salvo).

Honestly, that just amounts to poor logic. You are jumping through alot of hoops to avoid having to accept the more logical conclusion.

Specifically that there is no mention of any inherent range restriction to added dice. Not because FFG forgot, but because it doesn't exist. Also, that the Dominator title has it's stated restriction for a reason, as opposed to being a superfluous reminder. And that other effects without thier own stated restrictions function at face value.

Well I'm not hoping to avoid the more logical conclusion, in fact I've stated in the other thread about dice and range that I support the conclusion that dice are not inherently limit to ranges by their color and with Opening Salvo you could indeed use black dice at long if you chose too. I was merely pointing out a different perspective. 

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Also it seems some of the wave one cards say you can add black dice but only up to medium range - which has pushed me into the 'card means you can add black at long/red range' camp. BUT if that premise is right we came up with another query at the comp today. An attack is legal at the measuring phase if you have dice of that range in the initial pool. SO if you only have blue dice on hull card you can only shoot to medium and therefore can't add red or any other colour to strike at long range (maybe, possibly etc)

Edited by Rich J

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Also it seems some of the wave one cards say you can add black dice but only up to medium range - which has pushed me into the 'card means you can add black at long/red range' camp. BUT if that premise is right we came up with another query at the comp today. An attack is legal at the measuring phase if you have dice of that range in the initial pool. SO if you only have blue dice on hull card you can only shoot to medium and therefore can't add red or any other colour to strike at long range (maybe, possibly etc)

 

Reference Rules, p2, "Attack Range"

"A hull zone’s maximum attack range is close range if it has only black dice in its armament, medium range if it has at least one blue die, or long range if it has at least one red die."

So, if a card changes your battery armament to include red dice you could make an attack at long range. An example of this would be enhanced armament. However I currently don't know of a ship without red dice that is allowed to equip it.

 

If it does not change the armament itself but just allows you to add dice, then it does not allow you to make attacks at long range.

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See Squadron Attacks: All 3 colored dice are used by different squadrons. BUT squadrons must attack at range 1. So, this is an example that dice color is not dependent on range.

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So, if you are saying that range does not matter on the rule

 

 

Special Rule: The first time a ship performs an attack against another ship, discard the attacker's objective token.  If the attacker belongs to the first player, he adds 2 red dice to the attack pool.  If the attacker belongs to the second player, he adds 2 dice, each of any color to the attack pool.

 

I can, as second player, when you are across the board, fire with 0 dice since nothing is in range and then add 2 dice?

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So, if you are saying that range does not matter on the rule

 

 

Special Rule: The first time a ship performs an attack against another ship, discard the attacker's objective token.  If the attacker belongs to the first player, he adds 2 red dice to the attack pool.  If the attacker belongs to the second player, he adds 2 dice, each of any color to the attack pool.

 

I can, as second player, when you are across the board, fire with 0 dice since nothing is in range and then add 2 dice?

 

No, because there is no attack to make in the first place. No attack means to modify dice step.

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You have to be able to make the initial attack roll in order to actually get to the step in which dice can be added. If you can't form a dice pool with your battery based on the range, then you can't attack to begin with.

I am going to just qouted myself since I already answered that question not 3 posts back.

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You CAN add any two dice you want to the attack pool, but, as was stated earlier by BigBadGarou (and perhaps someone earlier still), you may only roll unused appropriate dice. Appropriate meaning in the appropriate icons on the range ruler.

Example of Victory II (2nd player) with Conc Fire Command firing at a Rebel Ship that activated first and was moving so fast as to enter close range in the front arc of the Vic.

1. Gather 3 red and 3 blue and roll.

2. Add 2 black (opening salvo) and roll.

3. Add 1 black (conc fire) and roll.

If the same example was used at medium range. I believe step 2 and 3 would be legal as far as adding dice, BUT you cannot perform the actual rolls since they are not of the appropriate colors.

As an aside, what I actually like is that you have choices as the attacker. You don't just roll all the dice at once. Already got that crit effect and don't have any accuracy? Roll blues to at least guarantee the chance to do more damage or possibly get accuracy.

Hope this made sense. I usually just sit back and watch things play out but after speaking about this with the wonderful people at my gaming store, I felt the need to say something.

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I'm really amazed that this discussion is still going.  Pages of explanations from multiple rules experts as to why "any dice" means "any dice."  I think I may make a new thread about how attacking works with pretty pictures and stuff.  Just a mini FAQ on the matter.  I think everything that can be said in this thread has already been said.  I, personally, can't think of any more ways to explain it.

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Sorry you feel that way. I certainly don't think of myself as a rules expert and I doubt anyone else would with such a new game. I just want to play fair and fly casual (sorry couldn't resist). I admire everyone who asks questions in an attempt to find the truth.

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Rules experts...who've had the game just as long as everyone else.

The way I read it, yes, you can add any color dice you want to your pool - but If you're at medium or long range, adding black dice to your pool is kind of a waste since black dice don't hit beyond close range. It's like parking in front of a Vic-1 at long range - just because the Vic-1 has black dice in its front arc doesn't mean you get to shoot them at long range. "But adding dice is different!" I am aware that you think it's different, but it's a question that is coming up quite frequently - hence the need for an FAQ.

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Rules experts...who've had the game just as long as everyone else.

The way I read it, yes, you can add any color dice you want to your pool - but If you're at medium or long range, adding black dice to your pool is kind of a waste since black dice don't hit beyond close range. It's like parking in front of a Vic-1 at long range - just because the Vic-1 has black dice in its front arc doesn't mean you get to shoot them at long range. "But adding dice is different!" I am aware that you think it's different, but it's a question that is coming up quite frequently - hence the need for an FAQ.

"Rules experts" (hate the term) ... who have been consistently answering all rules questions with well founded and sourced references and quotes in the rules and actual arguments based on said rules rather than assumptions and imagined limitations that are not stated in the rules.

But, I do agree that nothing short of "word from god" is going to change your opinion on the correct interpretation.

Edited by chrisdk

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