Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
TenuousGrip

Question about "Opening Salvo" objective

Recommended Posts

I'm wondering what folks' interpretation of the "Opening Salvo" objective card is.  It seems a little powerful to me at first blush...

 

The relevant text:

 

 

Special Rule: The first time a ship performs an attack against another ship, discard the attacker's objective token.  If the attacker belongs to the first player, he adds 2 red dice to the attack pool.  If the attacker belongs to the second player, he adds 2 dice, each of any color to the attack pool.

 

 
I take this to mean the second player could fire at long range and add two black dice to the attack pool (or medium range for that matter).  Does anyone know if that is the intent?  It specifically doesn't say "add 2 dice of a color that was used in the attack," so I'm thinking this is correct.  It just seems pretty powerful to me.  Especially when you start pairing this card with upgrades that allow special effects on black critical hits, or other such mechanics.
 
It would also seem to suggest that a ship that doesn't have a long range weapon could make such an attack (if it were part of the second player's fleet).  The CR90 Corvette B has only blue attack dice so it can't normally attack at long range.  Would Opening Salvo allow that ship to make one attack at long range, and use black dice to do it?  You would be adding 2 black dice to an attack pool of zero dice, which to my mind is completely reasonable.
 
Maybe there's a rule somewhere I'm missing that clarifies what this card means?  Or maybe I understand it completely as it is...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have no guns in range at the start of the attack, there is no attack as there is no viable target.

 

You have to have something in range to be able to make the attack.

 

Yes, the second player can add black dice to a long range shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have no guns in range at the start of the attack, there is no attack as there is no viable target.

 

You have to have something in range to be able to make the attack.

 

Yes, the second player can add black dice to a long range shot.

Say VSD1 for sake of argument. If a long range shot, black dice can't be added to the pool anyway. I wouldn't see this as overriding that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have no guns in range at the start of the attack, there is no attack as there is no viable target.

 

You have to have something in range to be able to make the attack.

 

Yes, the second player can add black dice to a long range shot.

Say VSD1 for sake of argument. If a long range shot, black dice can't be added to the pool anyway. I wouldn't see this as overriding that.

The rules for other effects like Concentrate Fire say "Add one attack die to the attack pool. That die

must be of a color that is already in the attack pool." Since Opening Salvo just says "add 2 dice of any color" without referencing the pool at all, I would read that as allowing the VSD1 to add black dice to a long range attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes but this time the dice do not have to be in the attack pool already but all the dice have a 'range' shown on the marker - so they could add black dice but they will not be in range etc. Or so it seems to us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes but this time the dice do not have to be in the attack pool already but all the dice have a 'range' shown on the marker - so they could add black dice but they will not be in range etc. Or so it seems to us.

I get where you're coming from and I think an official FFG rules clarification for this would be great, but here's how I'm reading it.

The objective says "add 2 dice of any color to the attack pool." For that to make sense, there must already be an attack pool established.

So how did the attack pool get established? In the Roll Attack Dice step, you "Gather attack dice to form the attack

pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are

appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by

the icons on the range ruler."

You've already finished gathering your dice with the range restriction, and then you're told to add two dice of any color to that pool. So even if during "Roll Attack Dice" you were only able to gather red dice, I see the objective as saying you can then add two dice of any color to that pool, even black dice. You're already past the step where you had a range restriction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is still disagreement about all situations where dice of various colors can be used at different ranges - I, for one, think that while you might be able to add black dice to a long range shot, you wouldn't roll them since black dice only fire at short range (so your better off using a red dice at long range), but an FAQ will be required.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I, for one, think that while you might be able to add black dice to a long range shot, you wouldn't roll them since black dice only fire at short range

Under "Modifying Dice", it defines 'add' as "When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool." I think Opening Salvo still has ambiguity, but if you rule that you're allowed to add dice in a situation, it follows that you're allowed to roll those dice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we had a clarification on "appropriate dice" then we'd be squared away. Just need to know if it means appropriate for the effect/ability or appropriate dice for the affect/ability AND the range.

This.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue here:
 
Red dice are not inherently long range.
Blue dice are not inherently medium range.
Black dice are not inherently short range.
 
When forming the initial attack pool, those are just the default guides line for determining which dice to include in an unmodified attack.  If an effect says "add X dice, each of any color to the attack pool,"  then you may do exactly that.  
 
Yes, the RR says for add dice to roll the "appropriate color."  I think it just means do what you're told on the card.  However, you can interpret that any way you want, it doesn't matter, because right on the front cover, under Golden Rules, it says:
"Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the learn to play or rules reference booklets.  In these situations, the component's effect takes precedence.
 
Every effect I've seen so far that tells you to add dice explicitly say what color to add.  It doesn't matter what the default modify dice rule says about the appropriate color, because if there is a conflict, the card/effect takes priority over it anyways.
 
tldr: Card says "jump", I say "How hi-- Oh wait, it says right there."  

Edited by willismaximus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The quotes from the rules reference guide are in this thread: Range and dice additions in the Modify Dice step.

 

 

Short answer is the only time the Rules Ref mentions restricting dice by range is in Step 2 which occurs before any modifications of any type.  AFAIK all the modifications tell you which dice to add.  For Player 2 in Opening Salvo, "any" means any.

 

I like how willismaximus puts it.  Around here I've been telling people that the games doesn't have short, med and long range dice.  It has black, blue and red dice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue here: Red dice are not inherently long range.Blue dice are not inherently medium range.Black dice are not inherently short range. 

 [/background]

  

The quotes from the rules reference guide are in this thread: Range and dice additions in the Modify Dice step.

 Around here I've been telling people that the games doesn't have short, med and long range dice.  It has black, blue and red dice.

I would argue that the range ruler disagrees with you, but for now can't we just say "wait for the FAQ and play it that way"? However it is ruled is how it will be played, but going around like this isn't really accomplishing anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are at a tournament on Saturday and it seems a bit daft this hasn't been clarified as it is probably going to come up. 

 

I doubt the shop TO will have much of a clue as I imagine they haven't had time to play many pointed/objective games yet. So recommended course of action is... 

 

 

Also taking the 'there' is no range dice just colours argument to an extreme - it would mean you could add 2 dice to any shot at any range as it doesn't specify a range. SO shooting 2 black dice across the table would be fine (Bazinga...)

Edited by Rich J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are at a tournament on Saturday and it seems a bit daft this hasn't been clarified as it is probably going to come up. 

 

I doubt the shop TO will have much of a clue as I imagine they haven't had time to play many pointed/objective games yet. So recommended course of action is... 

 

 

Also taking the 'there' is no range dice just colours argument to an extreme - it would mean you could add 2 dice to any shot at any range as it doesn't specify a range. SO shooting 2 black dice across the table would be fine (Bazinga...)

 

I'm not sure why you think this would mean you could declare a target ignoring range restrictions.  Initially determining a legal target depends on range and the dice colors of your base attack (among other things).  AFTER that step is when you modify dice, which is when the card effect occurs.  Your target is already determined to be legal at this point. 

 

And I disagree that this hasn't been clarified.  The card is clear.  There is zero ambiguity behind "add X dice, each of any color..."  Card effects take precedence over any contradiction in the RR, real or imagined.      

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
for now can't we just say "wait for the FAQ and play it that way"? However it is ruled is how it will be played, but going around like this isn't really accomplishing anything.

 

I most certanly will play it how ever an evetuall FAQ tells me to and I would think most people will. What we are discussing here how ever is how it works right now acording to the rules we have at the moment. We don't know when an FAQ will come, we don't even know if this question will be clarified in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Page 13 of the Learn to Play

 

The attacker uses the range side of the range ruler to determine the range to the chosen hull zone (see “Measuring Firing Arc and Range” on page 14).

Each range band on the ruler depicts which colors of attack dice he can roll. For example, at long range a ship can roll only its red attack dice.

If the attacking hull zone does not have any red dice, then it cannot perform this attack

 

Note that it says that the ruler depicts which color of attack dice he can roll. The example supports that by showing if you are at long range and have no red dice you can not attack.

 

So, you can not roll Black Dice on the opening salvo at long range since you can not roll that color dice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the Learn to Play rules only tell half the truth. In any rules discussion, I strongly advice referencing the Rules Reference Guide.

It tells us to gether dice of appropriate color acording to range in step 2 of the attack sequence and roll them to form the attack pool. If no dice fullfills the requirement it tells us to abort the attack.

In step 3 you can modify dice, adding dice to the attack pool is listed as one such modification (p7 RRG). There is no range restriction listed in step 3 of the attack sequence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Furthermore among the effects we have that add dice to the attack pool in Step 3 we have the Dominator title. Which adds Blue Dice and yet specifically goes out of it's way to restrict the ability to add those dice to close-medium range.

What would be the point of that if Blue dice were already inherently restricted to close-medium range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.

 

From the Rules Reference guide page 2.

 

Your initial pool of dice is restricted by range.

 

The page 7 rules says 

 

Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

 

It still says appropriate color. Back to page two "Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler" 

 

So, still no black at long range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...