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Nilliom

Fighter Speed compared to Capital ship speed

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Do you find it strange that the escort of fighters like the X-Wing are slower than a CR-90 or Nebulon-B frigate. When you compare the move that these capital ships do at speed 3 and/or 4 for example, they go faster than a X-Wing limited to the speed of 3 on the distance ruler. These can't keep up and are left behind when in fact they must be in front to screen the capital ships.

 

When looking at Wookie Pedia, the corvette is supposed to have a lower maximum acceleration than the X-Wing T65 (the best known)

 

It may be less apparent from the Empiree standpoint since the VSD are a lot slower than a Tie Fighter. But even a Tie fighter, that is supposed to be very fast, cannot compeat with a corvette at speed 4.

 

I love the game, but found this fact to be breaking what we see in the movies

 

Any thought?

Edited by Nilliom

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Keep in mind that Acceleration != Speed.  While the corvette's top speed is higher than that of the X-wing; it still can't accelerate as quickly as an X-wing and is therefore less maneuverable.

 

I do agree that the corvette shouldn't be allowed to be faster than any starfighter except for balance purposes.

 

What would make sense to me is if capital ships were forced to move at 1 speed slower if their path would go through the engagement zone of a starfighter.

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I'm by no means a physics expert, not that Star Wars follows the laws of physics very closely anyway, but in terms at least of straight-line speed, wouldn't the capital ships, with their larger engines, be faster than fighters? Mass not being a factor...

 

Fighters, on the other hand, due to their small size, can maneuver much more effectively than the larger capital ships, and that's reflected in the game.

 

...I probably totally butchered physics there, but what I'm saying is, the way Armada handles the capital ship/fighter dynamic feels right to me.

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Don't forget about the upgrade that allows a squadron to take two activations.

That's two lots of speed 3 for the X-Wing equals speed 6.

I don't think the speeds on the squadrons represent their top speed but their combat speed.

I can't imagine what else they have lined up for squadrons.

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Don't forget about the upgrade that allows a squadron to take two activations.

That's two lots of speed 3 for the X-Wing equals speed 6.

I don't think the speeds on the squadrons represent their top speed but their combat speed.

I can't imagine what else they have lined up for squadrons.

 

Yeah, if you want to get really "fluffy" then think back to playing the X-Wing PC games, as soon as you put power into lasers and shields the X-Wing turned into a wallowing brick pretty fast if you werent careful :P

Edited by MaverickNZ

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Keep in mind that Acceleration != Speed.

 

This.

 

 

I'm by no means a physics expert, not that Star Wars follows the laws of physics very closely anyway

 

You're close enough for any practical purposes, but the second part of that sentence is the most important.  Real physics can't in any way be applied to Star Wars space battles, because physics in space simply do not work in a way that would be very entertaining from a cinematic perspective.  That's why Star Wars space combat largely simulates air and naval battles on Earth.

 

For what it's worth, though Wookiepedia (in the legacy section anyway) as decided on an answer, the EU sources are really all over the place.  I remember playing the old WEG Star Wars RPG back in the day, and in that most capital ships had a distinct straight line speed advantage over star fighters.

 

Bottom line, as other shave pointed out, is that gameplay (and game balance) will trump fluff every time for a game like this.  It just has to 'feel' just right enough.  To me it does, though many squadrons cannot match ships going 3-4 in a straight line, they have many distinct advantages that make them feel like they are way more maneuverable than a ship.  They can instantly move any distance in any direction during their move (up to their speed), whereas a ship is locked into a speed and must use a command to only be able to change it by one (unless you have a token and the dial).  The most maneuverable ship in the game so far (CR90) can only turn 90 degrees in a round, and must cover a significant amount of distance to do that.  Squadrons can also fire in any direction at will.

 

Remember too, that it is really just straight line speed we're talking about for ships at speed 3/4.  As soon as you click that maneuver tool's joints over at all, the point to point distance between the front and end of that tool become shorter.  Try setting your Neb-B that you're concerned about outrunning your X-Wings to speed 3, and have it turn as fast as it can in one direction.  Then take an X-Wing from the same spot that Neb-B was and move it per the squadron rules towards where the Neb-B is now.  How much (if at all) has that Neb-B outrun the X-Wing now?

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There are only a few straight starship chases in the movies. When leaving Tatooine, it looks like the Falcon is being overtaken by those star destroyers. When leaving Hoth, Han never tries to outrun the imperial fleet, choosing to hide twice instead. And later when escaping Bespin, Vader doesn't seem concerned that the Falcon might escape when restricted to sub-light. 

 

Sure, each of these events can be explained away individually, but to me it's pretty consistent that ISD's can fly faster than the Falcon so it isn't completely against the movies that a speedster like the Tantive IV might be able to outrun an X-Wing. The corvette has a significantly higher ratio of engine to ship size than does an X-Wing.

 

 

According to the famous RotJ speed chart, the X-wing is only 33% faster than the Falcon.

 

Ilmmglt.jpg

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it was mentioned but their is a difference in the X-wings combat speed, and cruising speed.  Locking S-Foils in attack position slows you down as anyone who has played any of the flight sims knows.  Also Due to the deflector shields and such more energy was diverted from the engines, compared the TIEs which were pretty much made of paper mache.  Also if you remember back, the saviour says "if we're going, we're going in full throttle, that aut to keep the fighters off our tails"  and he was wrong as the black squadron caught up to him.  

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the main problem is the Squadrons range 1, is far bigger then any of the other distances.

 

I did a spreadsheet so I could grasp the distances better in the game and one of the more interesting aspects is the comparison of distances between ship and Squadron movement

 

Ship move (in mm)

68

136

204

272

 

Squadron move (in mm)

76

124

184

244

303

 

At speed 1, the fighters are barely faster then the ships, but that advantage never occurs again, unless you have a squadron at speed 5.  But the Squadron speeds match up well with ship ranges. at speed 2 (close), speed 3 (medium) and speed 5 (long).  My thinking is maybe that whey they started working on this game, movement was directly linked with Ranges.  But when the maneuver tool came out they just used that and it's rather arbitrary distance based on the results from the manufacturer

Edited by kinnison

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it was mentioned but their is a difference in the X-wings combat speed, and cruising speed.  Locking S-Foils in attack position slows you down as anyone who has played any of the flight sims knows.  Also Due to the deflector shields and such more energy was diverted from the engines, compared the TIEs which were pretty much made of paper mache.  Also if you remember back, the saviour says "if we're going, we're going in full throttle, that aut to keep the fighters off our tails"  and he was wrong as the black squadron caught up to him.  

The whole s foils slowing you down thing . . . that was just invented as a gameplay mechanic in a couple games just to give the player a reason to do it.  Rogue squadron did it, which was an arcade shooter, not a sim.  The old xwing series, which was  a sim, never implemented that.

 

The main reason for s foils is for take off and landing (the wings would hit the ground otherwise in bwings, x wings, etc.)  It also aids in atmospheric flight by closing them.  When open, they provide a greater spread of laser fire and better cooling for weapons on the wingtips.

 

But then, Disney says this is all Legacy, and never really happened.  So who knows :D

 

reference: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/S-foils

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The main reason for s foils is for take off and landing (the wings would hit the ground otherwise in bwings, x wings, etc.)  It also aids in atmospheric flight by closing them.  When open, they provide a greater spread of laser fire and better cooling for weapons on the wingtips.

 

 

 

Better cooling, like.. in space? Tbh, as soon as you start thinking physics, or logic to a lesser extend, all this sci-fi tech is going to die pretty horribly. Spread is something that was last needed on ww II fighters, you dont have it anymore on todays close range air fights even though they still use propellant-driven guns..no one would care about spread with lasguns or blasters. And in atmospheric fights I would guess the x-Wings Wings are of similar little use, no matter the folding, there is no aerodynamic gain from them as far as I could see. Let alone B-Wings, Y-Wings or TIEs.. the explanation from bergerFett does the trick for me, cruise speed =/= combat speed because of higher energy consumption. Still no explanation that would survive on a closer look, but okay enough for me. 

Edited by Hesekiel

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The main reason for s foils is for take off and landing (the wings would hit the ground otherwise in bwings, x wings, etc.)  It also aids in atmospheric flight by closing them.  When open, they provide a greater spread of laser fire and better cooling for weapons on the wingtips.

 

Better cooling, like.. in space? Tbh, as soon as you start thinking physics, or logic to a lesser extend, all this sci-fi tech is going to die pretty horribly. Spread is something that was last needed on ww II fighters, you dont have it anymore on todays close range air fights even though they still use propellant-driven guns..no one would care about spread with lasguns or blasters. And in atmospheric fights I would guess the x-Wings Wings are of similar little use, no matter the folding, there is no aerodynamic gain from them as far as I could see. Let alone B-Wings, Y-Wings or TIEs.. the explanation from bergerFett does the trick for me, cruise speed =/= combat speed because of higher energy consumption. Still no explanation that would survive on a closer look, but okay enough for me.

Never said it made any sense. This is just the reasons lore gives us. The cooling and spread make sense though. People have the misconception that space is always cold. Dissapating heat in space is a huge problem, as there is nothing to transfer the heat to. Radiation is the only good method of heat transfer, which is pretty slow. By getting the lasers away from the engines, and each other, I can accept that as feasable. As for spread, you mentioned wwii fighters being the last time we needed it. Space combat in star wars is modeled directly from wwii battles.

But, like you said, science has no place in star wars, which doesn't even really qualify as science fiction.

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:rolleyes:

 

There are several reasons for the S-foils that are supported by common sense and canon

 

1. Accuracy with weapons because of bigger spread.  Having the cannons farther apart increases the chances of hitting a target.  They learned that lesson well in WWII.

2. For the X-wing i bet there would be better maneuverability because of the engines being further away from the y-axis

3. Radiators.  There are some sources that explain the S-foils are used for radiation of heat.  Considering space is a horrid conductor, this claim is rather dubious.  But even the Space shuttle had to do this with it's cargo bay doors.

4. There are some sources that explain the S-foils had to be locked down to divert away power from the Canons to allow the hyperdrive to be used

5. Because of some of the above advantages, they HAVE to be closed to land. Thus the use of a craft with multiple flight modes has advantages of both profiles without suffering the negitives

 

and finally

 

5. I find moving parts on planes rather neat.

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In WW2 there two preferences for weapon placement on a fighter.

If you mounted the MG/cannons in the wings you got a better spread of firepower but the recoil from the weapons affected the flight of the aircraft so your attack was less accurate. Also you were limited by space in the wings on how much ammo you could carry.

If you mounted the weapons in the fuselage you didn't have as good a spread of firepower but the aircraft was more stable and the attack was more accurate. you also had more space so you could carry more ammo.

Anyone who's play a good flight sim will know what I'm talking about.

The main reason why GL/ILM had X-Wings with split S-foils is because.....................it looked cool.

Once they had something that looked totally cool any reason for it would do, and I agree, remember Star Wars was all about cool visuals on the big screan. The first time I saw those wings split apart like that in 1977 I was amazed and wished real world fighters could do it.

As for the speed difference, as I have already said I think the speeds in the game represent relative combat speeds. Because we're getting an upgrade that lets you activate a squadron twice that would be more representative of the squads maximum speed.

Star Wars is fantasy so at the end of the day any cool reason will explain anything we see. And I love it!!!!!!!

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Technically there have been and are fighters whose wings change positions depending on speed. F-14 Tomcat, F-111, B-1, I'm sure there are others I'm missing. Also, when not near a star, insulation and dissipation of heat is very important. When closed, the internals of the wings are insulated from space, conserving heat and energy. When open, they provide more surface area for heat radiation to dissipate into space as the laser cannons are activated and in use.

The B-Wing's S-Foils are of a more practical use for storage when the fighter is not in use. Having the wings closer to the fuselage (especially near the engines) may allow it to maintain an even temperature without as much effort in space flight. Heat does radiate into space, but you need insulation as well or temperature would swing wildly between sections of the spacecraft.

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