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ArdusKaine

Extra Munitions: Not the Only New Thing

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I think some here don't get the point.

Even if the new Missiles, Torps and Bombs are insanely good and everybody would suddenly take them, the old ones are not fixed. I mean we don't need 10 more types of ordnance (although it's always nice to have new stuff of course), just make the ones we have work!

 

Not everything needs to be viable. Some upgrades are duds and aren't going to be used.

 

Case in point, proton torpedoes and concussions missiles were released in Wave 1. We're now on Wave 7. Design choices from three years ago don't fit the context of the game as it is today. There are new munitions on the market, and I'd prefer to use upgrades designed for the game as it is now instead of pushing developers to build around flawed ideas to make them viable.

Edited by LaserBrain

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Laser and Hawk a) are both right and b) should form a band of that name.

I _would_ like to see the classic munitions made better. I'm not sure how that can happen at this point, so I'm glad we're getting better munitions instead.

 

I think that the pilot skill that "Redline" has was the answer. simple, elegant and could have been implemented as a 0-1 point modification or system slot perhaps.

Sadly with it actually being the ability of Redline, this makes it virtually impossible that the effect will be FAQed somehow, with a very minor possibility that it may be printed as an EPT at a latter date (E.g. Wedge & outmaneuver)

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The Firespray with Slave-1 can't use this with torps, right? The card itself uses the one and only torp slot.

Aye that is correct, but you could use it for missiles or bombs.

Personally, I usually find missiles more practical then protons, and bombs are a big wildcard that is often fairly cost effective in small amounts

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My only gripe with Extra Munitions is that it favors Imperials a bit. Not terribly bad, but a little.

the Tie Bomber has two missile slots and two torpedo slots. As such by giving it extra munitions it gets 2 shots with it's torpedoes and 4 shots with its missiles.

Now you may be thinking, "but rebel ships get cannons and turrets that have no limitation on how many times they can fire.". You are correct. Though they also only get two torpedo slots. So if for example the Y-wing is meant to be a direct equivalent to the Tie Bomber then with both having two torpedo slots while one has two missile slots and the other has a cannon or turret slot does that not suggest the cannon/turret are meant to be roughly equal to the two missile slots? In short that a cannon or turret is meant to be equal to two munitions? Therefore if 4 missile shots are the new equivalent to a turret or cannon doesn't it stand to reason that 4 torpedo shots would be the torpedo equivalent to 4 missile shots?

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My only gripe with Extra Munitions is that it favors Imperials a bit. Not terribly bad, but a little.

the Tie Bomber has two missile slots and two torpedo slots. As such by giving it extra munitions it gets 2 shots with it's torpedoes and 4 shots with its missiles.

...

 

:blink:

 

A "little bit" is all?  I'd say there is only one non-Imperial ship that really benefits from Extra Munitions at the present time and that would be a Y-Wing with a Bomb Loadout.  Double bombs would be something very new, especially to the Rebels, but beyond that the only Rebel ships that could use Extra Munitions would simply be trading on torpedo slot for two uses of what's in the other slot which just saves a few points at best.

 

On the Imperial side both the TIE Bomber and Slave 1 (but not any other Firespray) could start looking at that upgrade as a force multiplier.  Those ships have the slots available where Extra Munitions would actually be living up to its name instead of being "cheaper second shot."

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A fix for ordnance was never promised, and is probably never coming. FFG said they'd buff the bombers, which is exactly what Extra Munitions does. 

 

I don't get why people want ordnance to be great on things like X-Wings, and Z-95s anyway, those are not ships that I think of as "missile platforms". It's a dogfighting game, it's not like Luke Skywalker was shooting down TIE Fighters with Proton Torpedoes right? From what I understand, ordnance is great against the capital ships in epic play, which makes more sense thematically then having them be good in a dogfight.  

 

A Tie Bomber on the other hand is a ship that I see needing missiles to be effective in a ship-to-ship dogfight. I think of the 4:30 mark in that TIE Fighter anime short on youtube where the TIE Bomber unloads a flurry of cluster missiles against enemy starfighters. https://youtu.be/PN_CP4SuoTU

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A fix for ordnance was never promised, and is probably never coming. FFG said they'd buff the bombers, which is exactly what Extra Munitions does. 

 

I don't get why people want ordnance to be great on things like X-Wings, and Z-95s anyway, those are not ships that I think of as "missile platforms". It's a dogfighting game, it's not like Luke Skywalker was shooting down TIE Fighters with Proton Torpedoes right? From what I understand, ordnance is great against the capital ships in epic play, which makes more sense thematically then having them be good in a dogfight.  

 

A Tie Bomber on the other hand is a ship that I see needing missiles to be effective in a ship-to-ship dogfight. I think of the 4:30 mark in that TIE Fighter anime short on youtube where the TIE Bomber unloads a flurry of cluster missiles against enemy starfighters. https://youtu.be/PN_CP4SuoTU

Torpedoes should be great against large and huge ships fluff wise. Missiles should be great against fighters, and we see non bombers use missiles and torps to such effect all the time outside the original trilogy. The difference is that ships like the Tie Bomber are dedicated missile platforms and carry far more ordinance than other ships. So yes they should both be good in dogfights.

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My only gripe with Extra Munitions is that it favors Imperials a bit. Not terribly bad, but a little.

the Tie Bomber has two missile slots and two torpedo slots. As such by giving it extra munitions it gets 2 shots with it's torpedoes and 4 shots with its missiles.

...

 

:blink:

 

A "little bit" is all?  I'd say there is only one non-Imperial ship that really benefits from Extra Munitions at the present time and that would be a Y-Wing with a Bomb Loadout.  Double bombs would be something very new, especially to the Rebels, but beyond that the only Rebel ships that could use Extra Munitions would simply be trading on torpedo slot for two uses of what's in the other slot which just saves a few points at best.

 

On the Imperial side both the TIE Bomber and Slave 1 (but not any other Firespray) could start looking at that upgrade as a force multiplier.  Those ships have the slots available where Extra Munitions would actually be living up to its name instead of being "cheaper second shot."

Depending on how many B-wings or Y-wings you fit with the torpedoes and which torpedoes you use the reduction in points cost can actually be significant. Yes a Y-wing with a bomb Loadout can be a great choice with it, but ultimately nothing special. Not with so many other ships getting multiple bombs too. The Fire spray title that comes with Most Wanted gives you 3 bomb slots total, the Tie Punisher and K-wing each have two Bomb slots and the Tie bomber and Y-wing can each have a single bomb slot. There is no ship that can take a bomb that can't take more than one.

I would say Nera Dantels would be rather intimidating with it and the right torpedo to accompany it. Especially if Deadeye is involved. Being able to shoot anything within range at any angle and do it twice for cheap is certainly not bad.

The main reason I say imperials will get more mileage out of it is because they have more munitions for it to key off of. Though I will say that is just in relation to the ships already out. The K-wing will actually get a fair arsenal so it may get at least as much use from the card as a Tie Bomber if nothing else. I suppose we won't truly know how useful it will be for rebels until we see those plasma torpedoes and twin laser turrets I suspect the turret will be a range 2-3 turret with 2 attack though hard to say. It could make for a nice one to use with the BTL-A4 title. As for the Plasma torp... No clue... Though it sounds nasty.

I don't think that the Imperials are getting a terribly massive boost over the rebels here, just a marginal one.

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So, if this is going to be another discussion of "how do we fix munitions?" I might as well throw my two cents in.

 

So, here's my first idea I had in the shower.

 

Universal Rule for Torpedo Upgrades

"After the Compare Results step, you may discard 1 (all? any?) [crit] results to deal 1 face down damage card to the target. This still counts as a hit."

 

and in a similar vein:

 

Missile Upgrades

 

"After the modify attack dice step you may discard any [Focus] or [blank] results to reduce the targets agility by 1."

 

So good? Bad? Obvious exploits? It raises the value of Calculation a little, but not by that much. Marksmanship takes another step towards being worth it's points (although I think everyone agrees it's still got far to go) and that one ability of Proton Torps becomes a bit more useful, and gains an effect similar to the Proton bombs.

 

Ion Torpedoes become weird though, since they now might do two damage. Also not sure how fluffy this would be for Flechettes either.

 

What about missiles?

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EM is a nice addition.  My only gripe is that is should have been equipable in ANY secondary weapon/munition slot, or made into a mod.

 

The real bummer for me is that the Tie-Bomber remains a disappointment. I still contend that the original sin was taking away its evade action AND lowering its evade stat - one or the other would be understandable, but both was crippling. I would prefer the evade action have been removed (for ordinance action economy reasons) with the ship retaining the Tie 3 evade dice.  I think it should have have two bomb slots as well, but that has been addressed to a degree. I am still trying to figure out why they've engineered the y-wing to end up a better bomber than the Tie-"bomber", but oh well.  In the end we will see more Y-wings on the table that we will Tie - Bomber, which in my mind will mean they didn't fully address the issue.

Edited by BDub

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A fix for ordnance was never promised, and is probably never coming. FFG said they'd buff the bombers, which is exactly what Extra Munitions does. 

 

It does and it doesn't,  since it does not address its survivability issue.  It doesn't matter how much ordinance you are carrying if you can't avoid hits and crits. I rarely see bombers get off 2 shots, let alone 3 or more.

Edited by BDub

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Ptl on rhymer with APTs and extra munitions?

That's seems /somewhat/ decent. 37 points though, sheesh, not much better than before.

I was just about to post this is it makes APTs more reasonable but I can see Rhymer, Keyan, and Nera probably being the only ones to use them.

 

Depending on the New Plasma torpedoes Horton Salm will love these so he can either save 2 points on a double proton load, or save a point or two on a double plasma load

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Heres my on-topic speculation.

Advanced homing missile: 3 pts

Range 2-3, 3 dice attack.

Ignore up to 3 of the defenders evade results. (Including evade tokens)

It seems like overkill, accuracy wise, until you realize Soonts can STILL dodge it pretty often if his stealth is still up, and hes got autothrusters and palps cheering for him.

Plasma Torpedo: 4 pts

5 dice, range 1-2

Turn all hit results into crits.

An anti-hull torpedo, its a weaker proton rocket if the target still has shields. If they dont, however, you coulx be doing 2 or 3 criticals in a single shot.

Thoughts? Would these missiles be worth taking?

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Heres my on-topic speculation.

Advanced homing missile: 3 pts

Range 2-3, 3 dice attack.

Ignore up to 3 of the defenders evade results. (Including evade tokens)

It seems like overkill, accuracy wise, until you realize Soonts can STILL dodge it pretty often if his stealth is still up, and hes got autothrusters and palps cheering for him.

Plasma Torpedo: 4 pts

5 dice, range 1-2

Turn all hit results into crits.

An anti-hull torpedo, its a weaker proton rocket if the target still has shields. If they dont, however, you coulx be doing 2 or 3 criticals in a single shot.

Thoughts? Would these missiles be worth taking?

The disagreement I have with you is on the Plasma Torpedo in the Black Fleet Trilogy (no longer canon but where the K-wing was originally seen I believe) it is a shield buster designed to overload shields so the regular ordnance can penetrate, so I expect it will be more like that than what you have now.

 

Although I believe the flechette cannon was also mentioned in the Black Fleet Trilogy as a pod or something that was put onto one of the K-wing's Hard-points for basically the same reason, to overwhelm particle shields, and that appeared to have changed so who knows what will happen 

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