Engine techs and Demolisher (wave 1 stuff)

[willismaximus 104]

So, tooling around with fleet builders I came across a particular combo that I'm not 100% sure on the interaction.

Keep in mind that yes, the wording on these cards may change when we see them for real.

 

Gladiator with:

Engine techs: (navigate command) after you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to perform a speed 1 maneuver

Demolisher(title): During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver

 

So, by themselves, pretty self explanatory.  But combine them, things get fuzzy.

 

It seems pretty clear that both effects, if invoked, are happening simultaneously.  So, as far as I know,  the controlling character would decide which to do first.  So, the question is, which of the following scenarios are legal?

 

Scenario 1

1.) Shoot once(or not)

2.) Maneuver

3.) (Demolisher) shoot once

4.) (engine techs) Speed 1 maneuver

 

Scenario 2

1.) Shoot once(or not)

2.) Maneuver

3.) (engine techs) Speed 1 maneuver

4.) (Demolisher) shoot once

 

finally, and most disturbingly if legal

Scenario 3

1.) Don't shoot!

2.) Maneuver

3.) (Demolisher) Shoot once

4.) (engine techs) Speed 1 maneuver

5.) (Demolisher(again!)) Shoot once

 

Pretty sure either of the first two cases are fine for the reasons I mentioned above.  However, scenario 3 . . . Demolisher just says after a maneuver, perform one of your attacks.  Engine techs reads like it's a whole separate maneuver.  So can a gladiator walk up to someone's face, vomit black dice from its front hull, bank speed 1 with engine techs, and vomit more black dice from it's side into the same target?

 

After writing this, I'm leaning towards . . yes . . . it may be totally ok . . .

 

Need thoughts on this!  

 

(I love **** like this)

[skyhwk290 94]

I was actually just thinking about this today and made a 3 gladiator list using it last night. I want scenario 3 to work but I am not sure what to say about it. They may consider the Engine Techs just an extension of the the "Movement Step" and the Demolisher is just meant to be an attack following that "Step". This (of course) renders both scenarios 1 and 3 impossible, we will probably end up waiting until realese of a FAQ.

Edit: Spelled made mad.

Edited April 21, 2015 by skyhwk290

[DWRR 898]

Scenario 3 won't work as you must always attack once before any moves. Neither upgrade lets you make both your attacks after a move.

Demolisher only gives you the opportunity to perform 1 attack after a manoeuvre during the ships activation, it does not allow an attack after every manoeuvre.

To me that 1 reads as a hard limit.

Edited April 21, 2015 by DWRR

[DWRR 898]

1 & 2 both seem fine.

Engine techs are a separate manoeuvre, made at speed 1.

[KAGE13 270]

I believe only #2 is going to work. Engine techs says after you complete a maneuver can do another speed one maneuver. 

 

In your #1 example you are doing the extra speed 1 maneuver after shooting. 

[DWRR 898]

I believe only #2 is going to work. Engine techs says after you complete a maneuver can do another speed one maneuver. 

 

In your #1 example you are doing the extra speed 1 maneuver after shooting. 

 

My understanding is that in this instance you have 2 "After" effects both triggering the same in game situation, so you can choose what order to resolve them.

 

After completing your first manoeurvre you can make another move and you can take a shot. Both of these happen at the same trigger so can be resolved in any order.

[willismaximus 104]

I believe only #2 is going to work. Engine techs says after you complete a maneuver can do another speed one maneuver. 

 

In your #1 example you are doing the extra speed 1 maneuver after shooting. 

Both abilities happen immediately after a maneuver, so wouldn't that make them simultaneous?  In which case, does the owning player not get to choose which to resolve first?

 

 

Scenario 3 won't work as you must always attack once before any moves.

By what reasoning?

[KAGE13 270]

Its because of the Maneuver command Icon.  It can be done once while resolving the matching command.  So you cannot stick an attack in between. 

 

And yes #3 also doesn't work.  for the reason I just stated.  And because ALL shooting happens before moving.  The Demolisher lets you use one of your attacks after moving.  You can't shoot twice after you've moved. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by KAGE13

[DWRR 898]

 

Scenario 3 won't work as you must always attack once before any moves.

 

By what reasoning?

 

All ships must take both their attacks before moving. Demolisher only lets your ship take 1 of those attacks after moving, ergo if you are going to attack, one of those attacks must be made before any moves.

[DWRR 898]

Its because of the Maneuver command Icon.  It can be done once while resolving the matching command.  So you cannot stick an attack in between. 

 

I disagree with this, you can completely 'stick an attack in between',

 

Both Engine Techs and Demolisher react to the exact same trigger, it doesn't matter how the manoeurvre was being generated (by a command in this instance).

[KAGE13 270]

not sure how you can disagree with the rules. 

 

Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “M:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

 

 

The card has a maneuver icon so it must be done at the same time as the maneuver command dial or token. 

[DWRR 898]

not sure how you can disagree with the rules. 

 

Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “M:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

 

 

The card has a maneuver icon so it must be done at the same time as the maneuver command dial or token. 

 

I don't disagree with that. It doesn't matter when you dclaire the use of the techs. With the command or after a move using the command.

 

The trigger for both effects (Techs and Demolisher) are the same.

 

The point in the game when both upgrades produce their effect is the exact same point in time, so they can be resolved in any order.

 

There is nothing to say that an effect with a command icon takes priority.

Edited April 21, 2015 by DWRR

[KAGE13 270]

So your turn would like this

 

1) Attack (once)

 

2a) Move (use command dial or token)

• 2b) It is still WHILE you are executing your move so now you can use Engine Techs AFTER you do your original move

3) Attack again using Demolisher because it is AFTER your move

[KAGE13 270]

OK so, if this is the rule 

 

Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “M:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

 

And we have established that the card DOES have a command icon as a header...

And you say this is ok;

 

Scenario 1

1.) Shoot once(or not)

2.) Maneuver

3.) (Demolisher) shoot once

4.) (engine techs) Speed 1 maneuver

 

Show me how Engine techs is happening WHILE you are resolving a maneuver command?  You cannot execute a maneuver command AFTER you have already moved

 

If the Demolisher has the same command icon then yes It would work that way.  With scenario 1 you are completely ignoring the command icon on the engine techs card. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by KAGE13

[DWRR 898]

So your turn would like this

 

1) Attack (once)

 

2a) Move (use command dial or token)

• 2b) It is still WHILE you are executing your move so now you can use Engine Techs AFTER you do your original move

3) Attack again using Demolisher because it is AFTER your move

 

No. The fact it is part of a command does not mean the point at which it produces its effect jumps forwards in the queue.

 

1) Attack

 

2a) Move (use command dial/token)

 

2b) Resolve any "After Your Move" effects.

2c)Choose Either Engine Techs or Demolisher - Resolve Effects

2d)Choose Either Engine Techs or Demolisher - Resolve Effects

3) ????

4) Profit?

Edited April 21, 2015 by DWRR

[KAGE13 270]

so what is the point of the command icon on the card then?

 

Engine tech (has 2 effects timing key words)

WHILE and AFTER

 

Demolisher (has 1 timing key word)

AFTER

 

They clearly do not happen at the same time. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by KAGE13

[DWRR 898]

The WHILE keyword is for all command icon driven actions. I completely agree that you use the Engine Techs while resolving a move you used your command dial on.

 

It is the Demolisher card that sticks it's head in and produces and out of sequence.

 

The fact that Engine Techs is very clear about it being a separate manoeurvre, and not +1 SPEED means there will be two very clear points, 2 very separate manoeuvres, during which Demolisher can interrupt the flow of events. After the first manoeurvre or after the second manoeurvre. 

 

All of this takes place while resolving the Nav command.

 

Once you have completed all extra shooting and all extra moves the original move is over and the command is over.

 

Both the extra shooting and the extra move are nested within the resolution of the original move.

Edited April 21, 2015 by DWRR

[KAGE13 270]

I think I see what you are saying.  You are saying the icon is suppose to mean you can only do the Engine techs if you are using a command dial or token. 

 

Ok, I think I cede to your point.  I just don't like that key word while.  But I guess having to "spend" a command could be enough. 

[willismaximus 104]

I see the reasoning behind both interpretations, but I have to agree with DWRR.  Demolisher says "after a maneuver" and not after resolving the whole movement phase.  The effects of engine techs command occur at the same point "after a maneuver," so the choice of which to resolve first would be the player's decision.

 

edit:  And I agree that scenario three isn't legal.  Sadly

Edited April 21, 2015 by willismaximus

[DWRR 898]

I do agree with Kage13 that the rules around using upgrade cards with command icons is a touch fuzzy, especially the word WHILE.

 

Either way an FAQ entry would be good.

Edited April 21, 2015 by DWRR

[willismaximus 104]

I do agree with Kage13 that the rules around using upgrade cards with command icons is a touch fuzzy, especially the word WHILE.

 

Either way an FAQ entry would be good.

Yeah, hence the reason for this discussion.  Still not 100%.  Good stuff though regardless.  This is the sort of thing that get people really intimate with the way the game works.  

[KAGE13 270]

Even the actual rule on While gives me reason to doubt and definitely needs an FAQ 

 

A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

 

Here the while pertains to the command icon rule

 

Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “M:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

So if we go absolutely raw the specified event is "resolving the matching command." 

 

But agreeing with DWRR's interpretation the specified event should be "After you Execute a maneuver"

[willismaximus 104]

Even the actual rule on While gives me reason to doubt and definitely needs an FAQ 

 

A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

 

Here the while pertains to the command icon rule

 

Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “M:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

So if we go absolutely raw the specified event is "resolving the matching command." 

 

But agreeing with DWRR's interpretation the specified event should be "After you Execute a maneuver"

 

I see what the issue was now (had to do some studying.)

The generic definition of a command icon on a card says while resolving the matching command which would equate to while executing a maneuver which would imply the following:

 

while EVENT maneuver

{

     move ship

 

     EVENT Engine Tech

     {

          (execute speed 1 maneuver)

     }

     end EVENT Engine Tech

     (Demolisher here)

}

end EVENT maneuver

(or demolisher here)

 

So no matter which move event Demolisher is used after, it is still after both moves.

 

However the Engine tech ability itself says after a maneuver. 

 

Which implies the following is ok

 

while EVENT maneuver

{

     move ship

}

end EVENT maneuver

 

EVENT Engine Tech AND EVENT Demolisher

{

     Perform both in either order

}

end EVENT Engine Tech AND EVENT Demolisher

 

The generic command icon definition of while contradicts the ability itself which says after, in which case I believe the ability takes precedence.  

 

Gah, my brains. Glad we're all on the same page now though.

Edited April 21, 2015 by willismaximus

[MaxTeranous 206]

ofc none of this could be relevant, as the released card rules are not yet known. We've already seen cards that have changed between preview and release.

[kami689 156]

So I am fairly new to the game, so I could be completely wrong on this.

 

I would think scenario 2 is the most likely going to be the case.

 

Steps:

1) Activate ship (choose to activate demolisher or not, in this case it is being activated)

2) Perform 1 attack or dont

3) Perform Maneuver

  3a) As soon as this maneuver is complete, choose to use Engine Tech (in this case it is being used)

  3b) Resolve Engine Tech's effect, do an additional speed 1 maneuver

4) Perform 2nd attack due to the effect of Demolisher

 

The only reason I think this is the case is due to the wording on Engine Tech card, "after you execute a maneuver" you have to choose to use Engine Tech or not. if you do not and go to your second attack from Demolisher, you would no longer be using Engine Tech after a maneuver, you would be using it after an attack (which of course you cannot do).

 

Again just my thoughts and could be wrong.