Another reason selfie sticks should be banned universally. (SW Related)

[Killerardvark 1,305]

Instead of whinning on blogs and trying to lead forums into ego inflatting circle jerk, I actually do sht to stop creepers. Thats why you people disgust me. You lazy fourth wavers sit and do nothing and wax on and on the internet accomplishing nothing and alienating our allies whle the rest of us are making a difference.

You so angry... but this is what I'm trying to lead the conversation. Instead of just shaking our fists saying "something needs to be done", what can we do?

 

Sounds like you're obviously against it and you state that you actively try to do something about it. Could you inform us on what tactics you have taken in the past to either prevent or react to this?

 

Personally I feel like I would confront them and drag them to security. Hopefully the convention policy would get them banned. Oh and make sure the pictures were deleted.

[All Shields Forward 1,917]

I mad because of Stellars argument that you either have to agree with him or you are supporting creepers. People come to this forum to talk about x wing. These kind of with us or against us are niavly black and white and turn supportive people away.

Remember, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Haven't been in that situation, but Id largely act as you said. First draw attention to what thru are doing and cease the activity. Then if the victim I wanted to pursue the issue I would tale and get the authorities. Probably not con staff for something serious. Ive heard bad stories doing that. Big thing is never touch them and dont impede their movement or you can get yourself in trouble.

[Killerardvark 1,305]

Big thing is never touch them and dont impede their movement or you can get yourself in trouble.

I don't know if I'd be able to control myself like that, and it's a **** shame that I'm sure the creep knows every letter of the law to bring it down on you. Amazing how being a good samaritan can be so dangerous these days.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

What if it's an "accident"? Say I baseball swing a fluorecent light into some creeps face and go, "whoops, sorry pal! Didn't see you there! I was cosplaying as a jedi, you see."

[Robin Graves 6,054]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2788560/judge-rules-man-took-photos-ladies-skirts-lincoln-memorial-didn-t-violate-privacy.html

OH FFS this sh*t is legal? Bad Judge! Bad!

[Killerardvark 1,305]

The argument is that you can't claim privacy for something that is openly visibly from some angle of view. The counter argument is "expected privacy" like you get in a bathroom stall. I wonder if the judge would have ruled the same if the picture was being taken over a stall wall (imagine a female taking the picture of another female to ignore "male in female restroom" legality).

 

You kind of have to have the judgement as such because imagine if I legitimately trip and fall in a way that I saw up some girl's skirt. I didn't do it on purpose, should I be able to be charged because some over sensitive girl freaked out?

 

...but Chris, that's not what we're talking about. Yeah I know and I agree, we just need laws that are written to charge the wrongdoers without some unwanted side effect. I've known a few people that were accused of sexual harassment and were kicked out of school by a girl who was just mad at them for some reason, but the way the rule was written, she didn't have to prove anything or have a witness. These things can be a double edged sword. Just have to think through them.

[Nightshrike 1,810]

Part of the problem is listed in the link that was originally posted (which I thought was also a great write-up).  I don't know if any of you have ever experienced similar issues to these, but when they happen, there is often a moment of not realizing what the appropriate response is.  There is a sense of questioning just how big of a deal it really is.  Oftentimes, as the author of the piece pointed out, the anger and the realization of the seriousness of the event only set in later.  So, sometimes immediate action isn't practical, because it's hard to go around in life prepared to deal with these situations at a moment's notice.  That would imply, on some level, you're expecting it, which is a pretty horrible mindset to walk around with.

 

I'm glad this was posted though, and that this kind of thing can be discussed on this community.  Aside from giving me something to do that doesn't involve whining about the K-Wing, I think it's important that these events get widespread coverage within the fan community so that we can all be better prepared to deal with them moving forward.  I think most of us hate this kind of behavior and don't want to see it at the events we attend, but we can't deal with it if we don't know it's there. Thanks Radzap for posting this.

[Stelar 7 888]

Instead of whinning on blogs and trying to lead forums into ego inflatting circle jerk, I actually do sht to stop creepers. Thats why you people disgust me. You lazy fourth wavers sit and do nothing and wax on and on the internet accomplishing nothing and alienating our allies whle the rest of us are making a difference.

 

You don't know me or what I do. I thought about posting a list of the causes I support with my time and finances, but I'm not looking for praise or to win some kind of who can do the most for a better planet olympics. I'll simply reiterate, you don't know me. You know almost nothing about be except that I play x-wing, promote open discussion of sexual harassment, and oppose suppression of that discussion. With that little bit of information the degree to which your bias filled in the 'details' of who I am for your contempt is staggering. It literally blows my mind at how freely you make claims you can't possibly verify.

 

I mad because of Stellars argument that you either have to agree with him or you are supporting creepers. People come to this forum to talk about x wing. These kind of with us or against us are niavly black and white and turn supportive people away.

Remember, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Haven't been in that situation, but Id largely act as you said. First draw attention to what thru are doing and cease the activity. Then if the victim I wanted to pursue the issue I would tale and get the authorities. Probably not con staff for something serious. Ive heard bad stories doing that. Big thing is never touch them and dont impede their movement or you can get yourself in trouble.

 

Did you actually read my post? The closest I came to what you think I said is that refusing to talk about, or condemn, creeper behavior supports their need for anynomity, and their need not to be challenged in what they are doing. Surely you can see from the example article how differently things would have gone if the crowd had not parted to let the guy with the camera get away. It was a dense crowd, lots of people, that a creeper could move quicky through it shows that people recognized him and tried to distance themselves from what happened. It's a perfectly natural part of western culture which tells us we should avoid conflict, and which plays to the advantage of the creep and the disadvantage of the victim.

 

This is why talking about it is useful. Not just being on the lookout for it, or trying to psyche yourself up to be the hero when the villian acts badly. To speak out about how something is wrong empowers others to actually see it when it happens. A direct example of this can be the recent media coverage, and social awareness, of police brutality. It's not new behavior by the police, but it is being newly recognized by the culture we all share and that is making examples of it more obvious to everyone. The condemnation of the examples is actually starting to make some things happen to make it better, though obviously a lot more needs to be done.

 

I'm impressed that you both speak against the behavior, though on some interesting terms, and that you recognize that violence and vigilantism is not a solution, but an even bigger problem. So I'll reiterate, what do you do? Why do you think that raising cultural awareness and unacceptance is a "circle jerk: or that people who care must only care to "Inflate our own egos"? Why is it so important to you to reduce me to an characiture that you can easily dismiss?

[All Shields Forward 1,917]

This isn't the first time you've pulled this. I know you from your words.

@Koing907.

Your bias is showing. There hasn't been a post about social issues in weeks. Moreover I don't see you complaining about the movie or rebels threads. They have nothing to do with the game.

No you quit some other community because they talked about social justice and you apparently don't want to have to deal with that. Must be nice to have the choice.

Me I want the communities I inhabit to be diverse and that only happens when actions that work against diversity are called out as unacceptable.

no one is pining anything on the community. why would you even feel like this targets you in any way? You are speaking out against speaking out about sexual harassment. Do you realize how that makes you look?

 

You say no one is targeting the poster, but then insinuate that the poster is pro sexual harassment. How is that starting a healthy discussion? From the very beginning you are attacking people that disagree with you, and attempting to shame them enough that they won't speak up again.

I thought we were done with this fckn bllsht on this forum. Take your sjw bllsht back to tumblr.

You are speaking out against speaking out about sexual harassment. Do you realize how that makes you look?

Again you use the same tactic. I think I was pretty clear YOU are my problem, but again your strategy is to shame your opponent. You don't know me. All you know is I play x wing and don't tolerate these discussions which paint the community as the villian for not wanting to play along with these ego trips

[Hobojebus 11,341]

There's a reason sjw's are laughed at you make mountains out of molehills, you are also known to out right lie to further your "cause".

It's now so bad 4/5 women won't identify as feminist because of you guys, women reject you because your making their lives worse.

Hell I saw a video by a sjw claiming they'd been raped because their parents had an argument in front of them, that's just pathetic and highly disrespectful of real victims of sexual assault.

First and second wave feminists are to be admired, third wave nut cases are setting women's rights back by being insanely unreasonable.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Hobojebus

[Killerardvark 1,305]

I really tried to have a reasonable conversation on a topic that i think is somewhat important. Enjoy the pissing contest this thread has become. I'm out ::drops mic::

[Stelar 7 888]

ASF, phone post so brevity and no quotes.

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm speaking directly. You are reading volumes into sentences and it comes from your bias not my words. Case in point I said trying to discourage this kind of talk makes a person look bad. You seen to have read "look bad" to mean "Is a horrible person who supports sexual predators." That is some serious added content.

Thanks for making this all about personal attacks though. I actually was interested in what you do. Apparently it isn't much.

Hobo,

So you saw someone say something ridiculous so now anyone that talks about social justice is that person? Wow.

Killer, I'm talking about the problem and defending myself from personal attacks. I think the thread can handle both.

[Koing907 1,267]

@Koing907.

 

You are speaking out against speaking out about sexual harassment. Do you realize how that makes you look?

 

https://youtu.be/PAqxWa9Rbe0

[Hobojebus 11,341]

ASF, phone post so brevity and no quotes.

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm speaking directly. You are reading volumes into sentences and it comes from your bias not my words. Case in point I said trying to discourage this kind of talk makes a person look bad. You seen to have read "look bad" to mean "Is a horrible person who supports sexual predators." That is some serious added content.

Thanks for making this all about personal attacks though. I actually was interested in what you do. Apparently it isn't much.

Hobo,

So you saw someone say something ridiculous so now anyone that talks about social justice is that person? Wow.

Killer, I'm talking about the problem and defending myself from personal attacks. I think the thread can handle both.

It's called an example, i could write an essay about the crazy things I've seen sjw's say or write online.

I could of gone off on a massive rant about how your side made a grown man cry for wearing a shirt on what should of been the proudest day of his career as a scientist, or how a guy asking someone for coffee got turned into a big thing, or the infamous rolling stone article about **** that was a complete lie.

It's far from one thing.

[Stelar 7 888]

Sure Hobo,

However, the guy who cried, realized he acted horribly inappropriately by wearing a shirt with pin up girls on national TV. He was criticized, that is all, just criticism, and he realized he was wrong and that he, not the critics, had tarnished his day. You can get that from his statements.

"just coffee" was inflated by Richard Dawkins, not the person who was asked. Still, why not provide all the details? The request was made in an elevator, after the request or followed the woman out of a still open bar at 4 am. It was actually a request to join him in his hotel room, so it wasn't really "just coffee" was it? The person who was asked, Rebecca Watson, she viscisiously said "Hey guys don't do that" The horror...

Aaaand none of those have any bearing on this conversation, except to underline the bias you hold against people interested in social justice.

[Koing907 1,267]

It starts reasonably. Criticism of a man's shirt. A comment about how someone felt when asked for coffee. 

It never stops. The man is driven to tears, the woman doubles down and calls anyone who disagrees with her misogynist a**h*****, the responsibility for a creepshot is shifted to a group instead of an individual. Then there comes a day when the conversation reaches ludicrous extremes. Manspreading, laundry baskets are oppression, wrapping presents is patriarchy. By then, those who might have pointed out that things are getting out of hand have already been driven out, and all that is left is a hugbox echo-chamber of people attacking each other for not being Progressive Enough, And those who are afraid to speak up for fear of being attaqcked by the in-group.

 

This isn't hyperbole, or slippery slope, this is what has and is happening. In the Atheist community, in sci-fi and comics, in rpgs and miniature gaming, in video games. Petty tyrants who use social pressure to control people. 

 

Social Justice my a**.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Koing907

[Stelar 7 888]

Actually that is a slippery slope fallacy variant, textbook example.

Here I'll show you. After shirt guy apologized people moved on, well the social justice side did anyway. I haven't seen annything written about him in months. The last thing i saw said hey look he apologized good for him.

However he was just dragged out of obscurity and for what? To make him look like a victim.

So by your own example if these things never get dropped it isn't the SJW refusing to let it go.

Your litany also completely ignores the actual facts. I don't know about laundry or present wrapping I'd be interested in seeing links to whatever that is. However you continue to mischaracterize other events. Your"just coffee" quip being a prime example For reasons I've already explained.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Stelar 7

[Koing907 1,267]

>>

Actually that is a slippery slope fallacy variant, textbook example.

Here I'll show you. After shirt guy apologized people moved on, well the social justice side did anyway. I haven't seen annything written about him in months. The last thing i saw said hey look he apologized good for him.

However he was just dragged out of obscurity and for what? To make him look like a victim.

 

>>

 

Dunno if this is going to format correctly. Hopefully this breaks the quote apart right.

*Edit* Nope. Gonna put in some arrows to break your quote text from mine.

 

Anyway. I brought up multiple examples to show how this stuff accumulates. I've got many more examples, since I was made aware of how pernicious and toxic social justice can be, and picked those out, since they'd been mentioned in the thread. Matt Taylor is just one example of social justice bullying.

 

 I don't know about laundry or present wrapping I'd be interested in seeing links to whatever that is. 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/10/wrap-presents-women-holiday-chores

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20060424151444/http://pandagon.net/2006/04/23/my-laundry-basket-might-be-sexist-but-the-cats-a-role-model-for-equality/

 

I know I'm not getting through to you here. I've been dealing with this **** for years, and I know how the conversation goes around and around and never seems to get resolved. I'm speaking to the lurkers who are reading this thread and wondering what all the fuss is about. Why the topic of pushing around plastic spaceships has strangely gone down this road of social justice.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Koing907

[Hobojebus 11,341]

The shirt guy had zero to apologize for he wore a shirt designed by a woman who was a friend of his and asked him to wear it.

The guy asking whatshername for coffee did nothing wrong he asked she declined and he accepted it gracefully.

It's professional victimized.

It's ridiculous and keeps getting worse like the woman trying to make it illegal for men to lie about their jobs to women, because now embellishment is equal to sexual assault apparently.

Third wave tumbler feminists Arnt after equality their after female dominance and they've horribly overeached the nets now wise to them and you can cry patriarchy all you want we'll still not take you seriously.

You only have to look at the escapist website at the centre of gamergate and how they've cleaned house and made an ethics declaration, you've pocked the bear and its awake now.

[Stelar 7 888]

Koing,

I can't read a word of your first quote it's white on white to my display and even highlighting doesn't resolve the issue. If I miss something just let me know.

First off, I agree with several of the commentators on the Christmas post. In my family we take the holiday casually and everyone does stuff. The poster seems to believe she is under tremendous social pressure and if she is, those people need to back off. Kirk Cameron is a joke, not a funny one either, but certainly a bigoted donkey. I can't really fault anyone taking a swipe at him.

The laundry basket thing was an interesting read. It was picking the laundry basket example as a specifically minute, tiny, thing to use as a hook to talk about the bigger discussion, should feminists focus on details or on the big picture. Interestingly it was talking about a dispute between feminists, of which there are a lot. I don't understand your objection to the post. By the author's own admission they aren't even sure if the laundry thing is sexist, just that it's a very small detail, and that the small details, in their opinion, do a lot to sway popular opinion. For my money there are enough feminists that both the big picture and the details can be addressed.

I'm kind of amazed at how this thread has developed. It was about some creeps at a SW con. I objected to people trying to shut the discussion down, and got accused of silencing when I expressed that opinion. Silencing silencers... Anyway I digress.

Others brought in the atheist big rifts, Watson and Tshirt guy. So I've followed that conversation and now instead of talking about a specific incidence, or even a certain kind of creep and social responses that would be appropriate, and legal, we're rehashing the whole big rifts thing. Ok, I'll talk to that a bit, I think you are probably right that we have chased off the rest, perhaps there are lurkers.

I've been paying attention to this for years as well. And I agree that many silly things have been said on the topic from both sides. However I'm happy to criticize the folks on my side when they overstep, just like I speak up when I cross the latest atrocity on the other. And it's not just sexism, some of the stuff on the police brutality side, or the theism vs atheism side or any side you like are just beyond the pale. (When I say atrocity, I mean exactly that, like the open season on black men, or the fact that there are states with only 1 abortion clinic, and/or where you have to be spoken to by religious zealots in state mandated "counciling" before you can get a legal abortion.)

You mentioned coffee, do you remember what actually got that train wreck rolling? What Rebecca actually said, took about 2 minutes in a video of about 10. She said Elevator guy was tactless, sexualized her and offered the advice, "hey guys don't do that."

However earlier on that con, she'd talked about sexual harassment at cons while sitting next to Richard Dawkins, and if you watch the video you can see how uncomfortable her talk makes him. He then took to the internet and created his "Dear Muslima" articles, and then over a million howling comments were placed on Rebecca's video.

Now, I am not the fan of Rebecca I was, her stance on ableism is terrible and there are other things we disagree on. However to pin that mess on her, it's absurd.

Same thing with Tshirt guy, he wasn't bullied, no one went to his house, no one called him on the phone, but lots of articles and blog posts were written. That happens every time someone in the limelight does something objectionable. What he did wasn't a crime, but it was tactless. That the shirt was made by women does not mean it didn't sexualized and objectify women. Wearing that shirt, while prominently displayed in a management role in a field with a well documented sexual bias against women, that was not cool. And he realized that. If you watch his apology or read what he has to say, he recognizes it was tactless and hurt a lot of people. However folks want to make it like he was ruined, as opposed to what actually happened, he got better, he learned a little more empathy than he previously had. And folks moved on, well most folks.

I get where you are coming from, but I can't agree with your stance, there is too much hyperbole and too much othering in your description of people like me. You think this place will go down the tubes if we agree that sexual harassment is bad when someone points out it happened? I just can't see that as any kind of plausible scenario. I think that it will get better if the response to the OP is, what <expletive deleted> jerks. No one should have to put up with that. The cries of, not about plastic spaceships, are just too much special pleading. We have a thread about the American civil war for force sakes. We have a whole off topic section, here, to talk about whatever because we are a community. One I think generally takes a dim view of people who try to take photographs of women's underwear without their consent. One, I think, that values the diversity of the fan base.

One of the most sobering experiences I have was a straw poll I took with the women, and people of color, I know. Of all the women, only my youngest daughter, note not both of my daughters, just the five year old, has yet to experience sexual harassment. None of the people of color have avoided racial harassment. You should see the stuff my nephew has to put up with. His skin is a shade darker than most of the rest of the family and the police know it. I encourage others to try it, ask the people you know what it is like not being a white guy. Listen to what they say.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

There was signage all over the showroom floor about reporting harassment, so I'd say subject matter visibility was pretty high. But hey, it's good to know victims of harassment can always fall back on the support of a few vocal forum posters, right?

[All Shields Forward 1,917]

I'm on a phone so quoting is difficult. Excuse my copy and past.

"You think this place will go down the tubes if we agree that sexual harassment is bad when someone points out it happened? I just can't see that as any kind of plausible scenario. I think that it will get better if the response to the OP is, what <expletive deleted> jerks."

I'm not sure if you read the beginning of the thread. Every one that commented was denouncing what happened. Someone even literally said harassment is bad. They then said that didn't need to be discussed further. That these topics are dedtructive to forum communities. Inspite of some of you insinuations no one here is supporting what happened.

The problem is that you responded that everyone agreeing that it was bad wasnt good enough for you! Which is a classic example of how these sjw threads go. It's not about the issue, it's about theatrics.

Edited April 24, 2015 by All Shields Forward

[Stelar 7 888]

ASF,

 

Seriously, please, go back and actually read what I wrote. I did not say anything to the effect that people agreeing it was bad wasn't good enough for me. I logged in in the morning to check what's up with the K wing, and found this thread. And I was happy to see the support for the victim and condemnation for the action. Then I saw posts by Marinealver, and Koing907 basically saying that while the action was bad, there was no use talking about it here.

 

I get that you think I'm accusing Marinealver of intentionally supporting abusers. I'm not. What I am trying to do is point out that silence on these issues works to the advantage of the abusers. That there was no reason to object to this type of post, while ignoring the gobs of other off topic stuff. To do so is special pleading.

 

To put it another way, I was pleased with the thread's direction until folks questioned the value of a thread like this. I can understand not wanting to post, because you're sick of this kind of thing, but when you argue that it shouldn't be talked about (general you) then I argue that it should.

 

Your first post was call the whole thread bull excrement. You then moved on to say some very uncharatible things about me, on little or no evidence. You tried to shut down the conversation, then accused me of silencing people and being manipulative.

 

You have consistantly misconstrued and misrepresented me and my words. You have not responded to any of my questions. You act as though you know what my motives are, and you are consistantly wrong. If anyone is engaging in theatrics it's you, and you seem to hold a particular grudge against me. Did I kick your dog sometime and not notice?

[Hobojebus 11,341]

There was signage all over the showroom floor about reporting harassment, so I'd say subject matter visibility was pretty high. But hey, it's good to know victims of harassment can always fall back on the support of a few vocal forum posters, right?

It's funny I always thought the police were there for that kind of thing, live and learn eh.

[Nightshrike 1,810]

 

There was signage all over the showroom floor about reporting harassment, so I'd say subject matter visibility was pretty high. But hey, it's good to know victims of harassment can always fall back on the support of a few vocal forum posters, right?

It's funny I always thought the police were there for that kind of thing, live and learn eh.

 

 

Yeah, because police have a fantastic track record of taking women's claims of sexual assault and harassment seriously.  What's amazing to me is that you cited the incident at the fraternity in Rolling Stone.  I could add the old Duke Lacrosse scandal to the list.  Sometimes the police have investigated men for what turned out to be false claims.  But I think the media skews people's understanding of the numbers.  I get police updates on my phone from my university (everybody does, they're called "timely warnings" so you can avoid an active shooter or whatever).  I get 3-4 text messages per week reporting sexual assaults of the women on campus.  Some are from strangers, many are in the dorms.  Sometimes they even have explicit details like "alcohol was involved."  They even go so far as to say whether or not police are investigating.  In a given week, usually 3 of the 4 sexual assaults are not being investigated by police because the women in question chose not to press charges.  There are a lot of reasons for this, but most just don't want their lives turned upside down by a police investigation which often, intentionally or unintentionally, blames the victim.  For a recent public case of this take a look at Jameis Winston.