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Carist

Start of Activation Timing

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Jyn Odan uses her Hair Trigger ability to attack a figure at the start of a hostile figure's activation, and uses a surge to stun it. Can the other player then play Rally to discard the stun, or has he already passed on his timing window to use start of activation effects?
 
 
 
JynOdan.png
rally.png

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In the RRG under Conflicts

 

  • The decision for a player to resolve an optional effect coincides with the order of resolution. After a player has declined to trigger one or more abilities, he does not have the opportunity to trigger that ability until the next triggering instance

 

Also under Conflicts in Skirmish

 

During a skirmish, mission rules are resolved first, followed by effects from the player with initiative, then effects from his opponent.

 

So Im leaning towards it being Initiative that matters with this scenario.

 

Jyn with Initiative:

You activate a group

Jyn announces she wants to Hair Trigger and you announce you have a card youd like to play.

Hair Trigger activates first. She stuns the figure

You play rally

 

My questions with this one is, Do you have to play Rally when you announce you have a card to play and can you change your mind about playing it if your figure doesn't get stunned.

 

You with Inititiatve:

You activate a group

Jyn wants to Hair trigger but you have a chance to play something "at the start of your activation" first since you have initiative.

You have no one stunned so opt not to use Rally

Jyn uses Hair trigger and stuns you

You already passed up your chance to play Rally so now you must use an action to unstun.

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The initiative rule makes sense. If you have initiative, you have to do your actions first, but where does it say you need to announce you have an action when you don't have initiative?  Shouldn't you just let the initiative player play all his actions until he passes, then you can announce and play your actions when he is done?  

 

 

 

It was also argued that since Jyn's ability is an interrupt, it would come before the initiative player's activation.

Edited by Carist

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You may be right about her ability going off first because of it being an interrupt. Im honestly not sure though since both are using the same trigger. Any other rules gurus want to chime in on this one.

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Look under "Timing" pg 2 RRG

 

"In a skirmish, resolve mission rules first, followed by effects triggered by the player with initiative, then effects triggered by his opponent."

 

We have an example of this ruling in the FAQ with the "Take Initiative" question. Start of Round is the trigger. Player 1 would play his start of round effects, followed by the player without initiative.

 

So if you had initiative:

You activate a group

You now have an opportunity play Rally and to immediately resolve it if you wish.

Jyn uses hair trigger and stuns you.

 
 
All the "Interrupt" in Jynn's ability is referring to is its pausing the current action (this case, your group's activation) to perform an attack. 

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You may be right about her ability going off first because of it being an interrupt. Im honestly not sure though since both are using the same trigger. Any other rules gurus want to chime in on this one.

rrg 15 for interupt

"Some abilities use the term interrupt. When resolving an interrupt

ability, players pause the current action of the game and resolve
the interrupting ability. After the effect is resolved, players resume
playing from the point that was interrupted. For example, if an
attack is interrupted, the interrupting ability is fully resolved
before players finish resolving the attack."
 
I'd say that means the action pause when Jyn's timing comes up. IE the activating player would have already had their "start of attack" window.

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But Jyn's ability interrupts the "start of activation", which means that the target has yet to perform either of his two actions. When resolving an interrupt ability, players pause the current action of the game and resolve the interrupting ability. After the effect is resolved, players resume playing from the point that was interrupted.

I would think the timing would go like this:

 

1) Figure declares start of activation. (This is important, because without the declaration, Jyn's ability cannot function).

2) Jyn interrupts, resolves Hair Trigger.

3) Return to "start of activation".

4) Play Rally.

 

What are we interrupting? The start of the activation. And this is kind of the issue, there is no "declare the start of your activation" step. One can only extrapolate that the "start of your activation" would be the point between saying "I am activating this figure" and actually declaring what the first action is. Without this, one could further argue that by activating and declaring an action faster than your opponent can declare Hair Trigger would completely prevent Hair Trigger from ever being used.

Edited by Fizz

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But Jyn's ability interrupts the "start of activation", which means that the target has yet to perform either of his two actions. When resolving an interrupt ability, players pause the current action of the game and resolve the interrupting ability. After the effect is resolved, players resume playing from the point that was interrupted.

I would think the timing would go like this:

 

1) Figure declares start of activation. (This is important, because without the declaration, Jyn's ability cannot function).

2) Jyn interrupts, resolves Hair Trigger.

3) Return to "start of activation".

4) Play Rally.

 

What are we interrupting? The start of the activation. And this is kind of the issue, there is no "declare the start of your activation" step. One can only extrapolate that the "start of your activation" would be the point between saying "I am activating this figure" and actually declaring what the first action is. Without this, one could further argue that by activating and declaring an action faster than your opponent can declare Hair Trigger would completely prevent Hair Trigger from ever being used.

 

I disagree, because Rally must be played at the start of activation, and since In a skirmish, resolve mission rules first, followed by effects triggered by the player with initiative, then effects triggered by his opponent, you would have to play Rally first (and not do anything) then Jyn's ability would resolve. 

 

Hair Trigger is still an ability that needs to be triggered like any other ability. It is not interrupting the timing instance, it is interrupting a hostile figure's action (or before its action in this case).

 

You cannot play Rally after your opponent have used Jyn's Hair Trigger ability because your timing window has passed. 

Edited by DarkJodo

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But Jyn's ability interrupts the "start of activation", which means that the target has yet to perform either of his two actions. When resolving an interrupt ability, players pause the current action of the game and resolve the interrupting ability. After the effect is resolved, players resume playing from the point that was interrupted.

I would think the timing would go like this:

 

1) Figure declares start of activation. (This is important, because without the declaration, Jyn's ability cannot function).

2) Jyn interrupts, resolves Hair Trigger.

3) Return to "start of activation".

4) Play Rally.

 

What are we interrupting? The start of the activation. And this is kind of the issue, there is no "declare the start of your activation" step. One can only extrapolate that the "start of your activation" would be the point between saying "I am activating this figure" and actually declaring what the first action is. Without this, one could further argue that by activating and declaring an action faster than your opponent can declare Hair Trigger would completely prevent Hair Trigger from ever being used.

 

You just need to look up conflicts in the RRG. It explains what happens when multiple things happen at the same timing. "At the start of activation" is the timing. Then you run down the list in conflicts if more than one thing happens.

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I received an official response regarding this (since Fizz's disagreement gave me pause), and indeed you cannot play Rally after Hair Trigger because the opportunity to play Rally has passed.

 

Glad I was on the side of correctitude on this one.

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I got a response from Justin as well. Heres what he wrote me:

 

It is indeed based upon who has initiative. If Jyn’s player has initiative, Hair Trigger resolves first and then the other player could play Rally. If the other player has initiative, the other player’s opportunity to play Rally would have passed.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Assistant Board Game Manager
Fantasy Flight Games

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