Decimator + Vader + Gunner

[EmpireErik 176]

I stopped playing for a while, and have a tournament today, so wanted to get back into the game.

 

Just a quick questions, which I think I am right, but wanted to confirm:  Does Vader's crew ability bypass shields and does it link with Gunner? 

 

I want to load out the Oicunn Decimator with Vader and Gunner to do the following:  Turret Attack (miss) -> Vader effect - > Gunner re-attack or new attack (hit or miss) ->  Vader attack.

 

The Decimator can take the 4 damage better than most, and I can deal out two crits that BYPASS shields since Vader's ability says suffer one critical.  Also with the offensive capabilities, you are not relying on Vader and just using him to finish off the enemy ship...  <--  after further research, I do not think Vader bypasses shields.   But still appears to be able to use his effect twice with gunner, the FAQ never elaborated on the second use of his effect.

 

this is 51 points.  

 

Your help is appreciated.  

 

I am also going to add either one Tie-Defender, or 4 Academy Ties to the list.  

Edited April 13, 2015 by EmpireErik

[Tokra 1,990]

No and yes.

 

No, the damage does not bypass the shields. It say one critical, but it does not say one face up damage card. The damage always goes into the shields, and if no shields are remain, than into the hull. And as critical it would be a face up damage card.

 

Yes, it does work well with Gunner, as long as you miss the first attack.

[stegocent 1,052]

No Vader does not bypass shields.

Only proton bombs (so far) can do that as the card says deal a face up damage card to the opponent.

Vader just deals out normal crits, so if the target has shields then the shield takes the crit as per normal.

Yes Vader works with gunner.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

To clarify: the reason Vader doesn't bypass shields is that he says the target "suffer 1 critical damage." That's specific language you can trace all the way back to the core rulebook, and it means his damage works exactly the same way as damage from any other source.
 

I want to load out the Oicunn Decimator with Vader and Gunner to do the following:  Turret Attack (miss) -> Vader effect - > Gunner re-attack or new attack (hit or miss) ->  Vader attack.

You could do it this way, but you don't have to. Because Vader and Gunner are both triggered "After you perform an attack", you can decide to resolve them in any order. So although it's perfectly legal to use the attack-Vader-attack-Vader sequence you outlined, you can choose instead to resolve the second attack before dealing with Vader:

1. Miss with an attack. Vader and Gunner are both triggered, and you choose to resolve Gunner first; Vader waits a moment.

Make your second attack. Vader is triggered again. Resolve Vader #1, dealing damage. Resolve Vader #2, dealing damage.

It's important because you may deal damage in Step 2, which means you may get to skip one or both Vader activations (and save yourself some damage).

[Ynot 670]

Attack-Vader-Attack-Vader is the better option in my opinion.

 

Attack - miss

Vader - kill the ship or severely cripple it

Attack - another ship

Vader - the other ship for another possible kill or sever crippling with the crit.

[Klutz 1,590]

Attack-Vader-Attack-Vader is the better option in my opinion.

 

Attack - miss

Vader - kill the ship or severely cripple it

Attack - another ship

Vader - the other ship for another possible kill or sever crippling with the crit.

 

You could always do this:

• Attack ship A
• Attack ship B
• Decide to Vader B or not
• Decide to Vader A or not

 

There is 0 disadvantage to waiting until after the 2nd attack to trigger Vader twice, and there are many scenarios where it could be beneficial.

[ishikabe 60]

Wow that is some badass advice. Oicunn and Vader were all ready nasty.

[TallTonyB 1,210]

You can Attack/ gunner attack/ vader/ vader? I thought the second attack was exactly that, a whole separate attack, meaning you would have to resolve all the parts of the first attack (including vader) before you start the second. Am I mistaken?

Edited April 14, 2015 by TallTonyB

[Forgottenlore 9,801]

You can Attack/ gunner attack/ vader/ vader? I thought the second attack was exactly that, a whole separate attack, meaning you would have to resolve all the parts of the first attack (including vader) before you start the second. Am I mistaken?

That is certainly how I would have read it. But I can see the argument for interrupting things and sequencing it like that.

I'm certain you are meant to resolve vader before the gunner attack can happen, but intent doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[DR4CO 5,504]

You can Attack/ gunner attack/ vader/ vader? I thought the second attack was exactly that, a whole separate attack, meaning you would have to resolve all the parts of the first attack (including vader) before you start the second. Am I mistaken?

 

It's effect nesting, much like what you can do with Push the Limit. Vader and Gunner trigger at the same time, so you choose which one resolves first. If you choose Gunner, it triggers Vader again, which resolves at the end of the Gunner attack before you go back to the first Vader trigger.

 

It looks something like this:

1. Attack ship A, miss, trigger Gunner & Vader.
   1. Resolve Gunner first, targeting ship B. Vader A waits.
      1. Resolve Vader on ship B.
   2. Resolve Vader on Ship A.

Edited April 14, 2015 by DR4CO

[TallTonyB 1,210]

You can Attack/ gunner attack/ vader/ vader? I thought the second attack was exactly that, a whole separate attack, meaning you would have to resolve all the parts of the first attack (including vader) before you start the second. Am I mistaken?

 

It's effect nesting, much like what you can do with Push the Limit. Vader and Gunner trigger at the same time, so you choose which one resolves first. If you choose Gunner, it triggers Vader again, which resolves at the end of the Gunner attack before you go back to the first Vader trigger.

 

It looks something like this:

• Attack ship A, miss, trigger Gunner & Vader.
  • Resolve Gunner first, targeting ship B. Vader A waits.
  • Resolve Vader on ship B.
• Resolve Vader on Ship A.

That's cool. I never realized this before. Is there actually an explicit rule for this? I love my doomshuttles,would love to make them even more hardcore.

[DR4CO 5,504]

It's written into the core rules. If two or more abilities trigger at the same time ("after you perform an attack", in this case*), the player gets to decide which order he wants to resolve them in. Once you start resolving one, you have to do it fully, which includes anything that it triggers.

 

A similar situation under the old decloak rules is the combination of Push the Limit, Advanced Sensors and Decloak. If you Advanced Sensors first, you then trigger Push the Limit before you go back to handle the Decloak.

 

* Although Gunner does have the extra stipulation of requiring you to not have hit your target. Doesn't change the trigger point, though.

 

EDIT: Future-proofing my Decloak/Adv Sensors example.

Edited April 15, 2015 by DR4CO

[Bilisknir 443]

This is all new to me - I was pretty sure we have had guidance that the rule is Shoot-Vader-Gunner-Vader, you can't delay Vader till after the second shot and still hit the first target. I notice this ruling has been dropped from the latest FAQ but was there in previous versions. (v1.3 of FAQ). In the absence of a counter ruling this is the ruling.

 

Q: If a ship attacks twice through some effect,

such as the Gunner upgrade, can the ship

use the ability of Darth Vader (the Upgrade

card) twice?

A: Yes, once after each attack.

 

Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader would be

destroyed by using Darth Vader’s ability, can

it use that ability?

A: Yes

 

Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader has

a number of Damage cards that equals

or exceeds its hull value, but is not yet

destroyed because of the simultaneous

attack rule, can it use Darth Vader’s ability?

A: No.

[EmpireErik 176]

Very interesting feedback... I hope the discussion continues, but wanted to thank everyone for the response.

 

I played the Decimator, and never got to use gunner as I rolled pretty well.  I did use Vader one time to effect a kill of a Star Viper early in the game, much tot he dismay of the player. 

 

Its a nice combo. 

 

Thanks again. 

[Tokra 1,990]

 

This is all new to me - I was pretty sure we have had guidance that the rule is Shoot-Vader-Gunner-Vader, you can't delay Vader till after the second shot and still hit the first target. I notice this ruling has been dropped from the latest FAQ but was there in previous versions. (v1.3 of FAQ). In the absence of a counter ruling this is the ruling.

 

Q: If a ship attacks twice through some effect,

such as the Gunner upgrade, can the ship

use the ability of Darth Vader (the Upgrade

card) twice?

A: Yes, once after each attack.

 

Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader would be

destroyed by using Darth Vader’s ability, can

it use that ability?

A: Yes

 

Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader has

a number of Damage cards that equals

or exceeds its hull value, but is not yet

destroyed because of the simultaneous

attack rule, can it use Darth Vader’s ability?

A: No.

 

 

And where does it say that the Vader effekt has to happen before the second attack?

 

It say once after each attack. Not when (within the chain).

 

 

So DR4CO is correct with:

 

You can Attack/ gunner attack/ vader/ vader? I thought the second attack was exactly that, a whole separate attack, meaning you would have to resolve all the parts of the first attack (including vader) before you start the second. Am I mistaken?

It's effect nesting, much like what you can do with Push the Limit. Vader and Gunner trigger at the same time, so you choose which one resolves first. If you choose Gunner, it triggers Vader again, which resolves at the end of the Gunner attack before you go back to the first Vader trigger.

 

It looks something like this:

1. Attack ship A, miss, trigger Gunner & Vader.
   1. Resolve Gunner first, targeting ship B. Vader A waits.
      1. Resolve Vader on ship B.
   2. Resolve Vader on Ship A.

 

 

Even here each vader effect happen after each attack.

 

You just have two triggers after the first attack. One is Vader, the second is the Gunner.

And the rules say clearly that you can decide in what order you want to resolve effects that happen at the same time. So it is up to you to resolve the gunner first and do the vader later in the chain.

 

[dvorm 1,058]

I notice this ruling has been dropped from the latest FAQ ..

Which means that ruling no longer applies. You can, once again, resolve gunner before Vader.

[Klutz 1,590]

 

I notice this ruling has been dropped from the latest FAQ ..

Which means that ruling no longer applies. You can, once again, resolve gunner before Vader.

 

 

The ruling never stopped you from resolving Gunner before Vader...

It simply clarified that, thanks to Gunner, you could resolve Vader twice.

[Buhallin 4,484]

 

 

I notice this ruling has been dropped from the latest FAQ ..

Which means that ruling no longer applies. You can, once again, resolve gunner before Vader.

 

 

The ruling never stopped you from resolving Gunner before Vader...

It simply clarified that, thanks to Gunner, you could resolve Vader twice.

 

I don't remember where it came from, but it was pretty solidly established that you had to Attack-Vader-Attack-Vader.  I remember the ones I got wrong pretty clearly

 

Of course, now that they removed it, who knows?    There are more than a few rulings now that violate the typical timing resolution, no idea if this is still one of them or not.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,152]

... the typical timing resolution...

 

Wait, when did they put that in the game?

[Bilisknir 443]

There was an email response from Frank way back saying the order was Attack/Vader/Gunner/Vader. Can't be bothered to find it on the forums. Maybe someone could drop another request to him. But everywhere I play the question was resolved ages ago and agreed as I said.

[ishikabe 60]

If you combine PTL into the mix, do Vader and Gunner still activate?

[DR4CO 5,504]

If you combine PTL into the mix, do Vader and Gunner still activate?

 

Of course. Neither is an action, so neither care whether or not you're stressed or what actions you may have performed in the round.

[CowboyJesus 27]

Not sure if this makes a difference to the timing of the two effects but gunner states "immediately" whereas Vader doesn't. Would this mean that the second attack should be done before Vader triggers anyway? Does immediately trump other effects?

[Bilisknir 443]

Nope.

[Buhallin 4,484]

Not sure if this makes a difference to the timing of the two effects but gunner states "immediately" whereas Vader doesn't. Would this mean that the second attack should be done before Vader triggers anyway? Does immediately trump other effects?

For a long while we thought it did, but there's a respectable set of rulings that say otherwise.  They've never come out and said it directly, but as near as we can figure "immediately" is a meaningless term.