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Emirikol

The state of our Hobby

78 posts in this topic

This thread has gone about as far off-topic as possible. Please re-direct your energy back to on-topic discussions.

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lordsneek said:

I can still accomplish something good in my own country I shouldn't have to go to third world counrties to make the world better. After all presidents like Abraham Lincoln abbolished slavery without having to personally go to Africa. So please stop your baltent name-calling and you will already made this forum a better place. 

You must have missed my point. The point isn't that you have to go abroa to make the world a better place. In fact I think charity workers who do that are a bit naive, because they really won't change the world by going to these countries as long as these countries rulers use the same oppressive and uncaring methods in controling the country in question.

My point was, that if you want to make the world a better place (regardless of what you want to improve, be it abolish slavery, or simply creating music that sounds a little better playing on the radio) THAT should be your main concern. Not the money you "potentially" lose due to piracy.

So you call yourself an artist do you? Well let's say that a kid in the third world who barely has enough money to eat properly likes the pictures you draw, and he have somehow gotten a hold of a pirated copy of your work. Do you think it's right to persecute that kid for copyright infringements, making him pay ridiculous amounts of fines in a lawsuit?

Would forcing a kid whose on the brink of starvation to pay money he clearly doesn't have, or throw him in jail just for having a tattered print of a picture you've made make the world a better place?

No. It wouldn't. I said it before, don't be so sanctimonious and try to pass of your own selfish desires of becoming famous, wealthy or being "remembered as a great person" as being "charity work" or that it would make the world a better place. It's degrading.

I know for one thing that PIRACY makes the world a better place. It takes away vast amounts of power that greedy corporations had monopolized for years and gives it to the consumer who have been largely treated like ****.

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Yes, let's get back on topic (the previous post was being written during the moderators remark, so i didn't see it).

The pro's and con's of piracy are already well established in general, and now in this thread as well.

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Steerpike said:

Cynical Cat said:

 

 

RIAA claims about piracy are complete lunacy and should be laughed out of court, but it does result in lost sales.  Not the one for one bull that the RIAA claims, but it does cut into the money that they make and RPGs aren't overly profitable to begin with. 

 

 

Which claims, specifically?

 

A Sony lawsuit claiming 75-150K losses per downloaded song.

 

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/sony-lawyer-150k-damages-per-song-certainly-appropriate.ars

$750 per downloaded song being counter sued.

 

http://excesscopyright.blogspot.com/2006/11/constitutional-challenge-to-riaas.html

 

 

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You know what I like about RPGs?

Telling a player that they lost their dice roll, even if it was a 01% (or 20 in DnD). demonio.gif

The look on their faces is worth all the years of putting effort into stories that the players hardly appreciate.

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Varnias Tybalt said:

ymrar said:

 

So you want to experience? and how are all these experiences delivered for you? That's right. Somebody coughed up money. You liked a movie? It had superior filming and effects? Somebody had to make them for you to experience it. So yes, you can put a price on experience. Some experiences come a lot cheaper. You want an experience free? Take a walk in the forest. Enjoy the sunset. Write a book (but for crying aloud, do not share it or try to make a living out of it).

 

 

Oh I buy movies that I like and know that I'll want to see again. Sure, divx rip's can be useful for evaluating if a movie is good or not (if I don't like the movie I delete it), but they don't hold much against seeing the movie at a cinema or the superior quality of DVD or BluRay. And frankly I like the look of having the real movie covers standing in my bookshelf. In fact, im quite a sucker for anything with "Collectors edition" written on it, in that regard.

It's just that I REFUSE to pay for a movie that I can't know for sure that I'll like. I shouldn't be expected to "gamble" on wether I think my money will be well spent or not. It's absurd to expect me to do that. Therefore I check out the movies on beforehand. Sure they will have awfully reduced quality in regards to sound and picture, but from that I can still make an assesment of wether I like the film or not, and if it's worth paying for to have a permanent copy of it.

But that's not how the movie industry want's me to think. They want me to base my entire opinions of inferior trailers that doesn't really reveal how good the movie is, but only shows a few amped up highlights in order to draw crowd interest. They'd rather want me to gamble with my money, like it was a game of blackjack. There is a chance I might be satisfied with buying the DVD or the tickets for viewing it on the cinema, but not a guarantee. And considering the vast amounts of crap that hollywood has produced the last few years, that chance for satisfaction has decreased a huge amount.

 

The problem with this is that you aren't Entitled to a movie.  If you don't like the way the movie industry presents their product, then don't watch the movies.  That's where the choice should lay.  Stealing the movie can't be justified.

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Cynical Cat said:

Steerpike said:

 

Cynical Cat said:

 

 

RIAA claims about piracy are complete lunacy and should be laughed out of court, but it does result in lost sales.  Not the one for one bull that the RIAA claims, but it does cut into the money that they make and RPGs aren't overly profitable to begin with. 

 

 

Which claims, specifically?

 

 

 

A Sony lawsuit claiming 75-150K losses per downloaded song.

 

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/sony-lawyer-150k-damages-per-song-certainly-appropriate.ars

$750 per downloaded song being counter sued.

 

http://excesscopyright.blogspot.com/2006/11/constitutional-challenge-to-riaas.html

 

 

 

They didn't claim those as 'losses,' those are damages and the statutory range is set by Congress.  A court certainly can'y 'laugh out' a claim for damages set by statute.  If you don't like the statutory damages, then you have to get Congress to change the law.

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The 150K was damage claimed by Sony and the other is based on RIAA damage claims.  Remember,  I was simply saying that the claims of RIAA and similar industries are ridiculous and certainly 150K per son is ridiculous..  I was agreeing that RIAA claims are ridiculous, but stating that doesn't  mean piracy isn't responsible for losses.  I wasn't defending piracy or getting into legal technicalities.  The Sony case hasn't been settled by Congress, btw.  It's a claim in civil court that hasn't been resolved.  The law in question is one that the RIAA pushed for.  Its just an example of how the RIAA and associated industries' outrageous claims, which aren't limited to cases only to America.

And a mod has kindly asked us to move on from piracy, so shall we?

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Cynical Cat said:

And a mod has kindly asked us to move on from piracy, so shall we?

...unless it is talk about Orc pirates, that is.

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Phew... quite the thread.

It is pretty tough to resist commenting on the craziness though... so just a really quick, really late thought:

The fact of the matter is, you don't get to choose to 'evaluate' full versions of whatever you want. It is illegal. Seriously. People made a product, and they made conditions for that product's sale and use, and the law agreed. If you feel that you should be able to evaluate any product you would like to, and try it out in full, for as long as you want, with no conditions whatsoever, you should get started on changing those laws - contact your local representative. Good luck with that. In the meantime, you are breaking the law.  

Anyways, back to the topic at hand:

Pen and paper games were always pretty niche - same as comic books, tabletop miniatures and collectible card games - they definately appeal to a certain kind of person (fortunately I happen to be one of those people...). There are fads, or hit products, and once in a while one or more of these genres will shoot up in popularity for a while. I think overall the non electronic games industry is pretty healthy - and it is easier than ever to self publish a boardgame or a pen & paper game or a card game etc. Companies are taking risks, trying new things, adapting to changing market conditions etc. - I think it is a pretty exciting time to be a gamer : ).

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Matt in the Hat said:

 

Phew... quite the thread.

It is pretty tough to resist commenting on the craziness though... so just a really quick, really late thought:

The fact of the matter is, you don't get to choose to 'evaluate' full versions of whatever you want. It is illegal. Seriously. People made a product, and they made conditions for that product's sale and use, and the law agreed. If you feel that you should be able to evaluate any product you would like to, and try it out in full, for as long as you want, with no conditions whatsoever, you should get started on changing those laws - contact your local representative. Good luck with that. In the meantime, you are breaking the law.  

 

 

Laws aren't constants. They change all the time, there's no valid reason to follow every law if you can get away with breaking them. No one does really. Most people only follow the laws which makes sense to them. For instance, you don't just go out and shoot people on the street and you can pretty easily understand why it is illegal to do so. However laws that has been instituted by greedy corporate capitalists that wish to shaft their customers completely, does not make the same kind of sense.

Besides, the laws look a bit different here in my country than it does in the states, and generally piracy doesn't even warrant the attention of the police and no organisation can even begin to issue a lawsuit unless they have proof of a crime (you see, here we don't just let anyone sue anyone else for anything like they do in the US, where you can sue McDonalds if you burn your tounge on their apple pie and similar stunts. Here you have to have a solid case and proof from the beginning before you are even allowed to sue). The courts here won't even touch it. And since it is illegal for private organisations (and even most governmental organisations) to monitor individuals internet traffic, it is pretty much impossible for them to acquire sufficient evidence to their cause.

So some actions might be illegal, but the law is written as such so that it is pretty much impossible to prove that the particular crime has been commited. Which is great actually. Not because it gives the middle finger to greedy corporations (although it is a nice bonus), but because a change in those laws would inhibit the individuals privacy in a most oppressive manner, which would be far worse and it would strike at everyone and not just internet pirates.

Just because something is in the law, it doesn't make it right. And quite frankly I don't believe you have followed the law all the time for every moment of your life either. In fact you've probably broken laws without even knowing it, it's just that they were so miniscule and unknown that neither you or the police would realize it.

That being said, I will from now on completely ignore any remarks about piracy in this thread, due to the mods request. From now on it's water under the bridge, so get back on topic people!

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Emirikol said:

It appears that it would have been smarter to make 3E a boardgame...

 

jh

Emirikol said:

It appears that it would have been smarter to make 3E a boardgame...

 

jh

 

They did. 

3E requires all these playing pieces and cards just like all other board games.  Where as a true roleplaying game only requires your imagination and perhaps some dice and pencil.  Technically any board game could be considered a roleplaying game if you personify and act out the role of the playing piece you are playing.  FFG is expecting people to do so with this latest board game so they can qualify it as a RPG.

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onlinechaos said:

They did. 

3E requires all these playing pieces and cards just like all other board games.  Where as a true roleplaying game only requires your imagination and perhaps some dice and pencil.  Technically any board game could be considered a roleplaying game if you personify and act out the role of the playing piece you are playing.  FFG is expecting people to do so with this latest board game so they can qualify it as a RPG.

But for crying out loud, people!

A boardgame is a boardgame, an RPG is an RPG. It doesn't matter what kind of tools (character sheets, rulebooks, tokens, cards, measuring sticks, dice etc. etc.) an RPG use, it's still an RPG, NOT a boardgame.

Any similarities you make between WFRP 3rd edition and a boardgame is nothing more than a quirk of your personal imagination...

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Varnias Tybalt said:

onlinechaos said:

 

They did. 

3E requires all these playing pieces and cards just like all other board games.  Where as a true roleplaying game only requires your imagination and perhaps some dice and pencil.  Technically any board game could be considered a roleplaying game if you personify and act out the role of the playing piece you are playing.  FFG is expecting people to do so with this latest board game so they can qualify it as a RPG.

 

 

But for crying out loud, people!

A boardgame is a boardgame, an RPG is an RPG. It doesn't matter what kind of tools (character sheets, rulebooks, tokens, cards, measuring sticks, dice etc. etc.) an RPG use, it's still an RPG, NOT a boardgame.

Any similarities you make between WFRP 3rd edition and a boardgame is nothing more than a quirk of your personal imagination...

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

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onlinechaos said:

 

 

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

You mean that you play your rpgs without any player aids at all?

You don't even offer maps or handouts to the players?

Your battle scenes couldn't have been that complex without even a piece of paper with "X"s to indicate bad guys and squiggles to represent obstacles.

It's been said many times that the cards are player aids. They are meant to reduce the times that you have to reference rules in the book, and they remove clutter from your character sheet.

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Necrozius said:

onlinechaos said:

 

 

 

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

 

 

You mean that you play your rpgs without any player aids at all?

You don't even offer maps or handouts to the players?

Your battle scenes couldn't have been that complex without even a piece of paper with "X"s to indicate bad guys and squiggles to represent obstacles.

It's been said many times that the cards are player aids. They are meant to reduce the times that you have to reference rules in the book, and they remove clutter from your character sheet.

So instead we clutter the table with stance rings, cards, stands, puzzle piece interlocking what nots and have less room for real useful aids like battle map and minitures.  Most people like character sheets that you can fold up and take home with you after the game.  You have to use their required aids or go thru a worst nightmare then any RPG character creation was by transfering all that playing piece and card crap to paper. 

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onlinechaos said:

 

 

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

 

 

ROLPELAYING only requires your imagination. But you keep forgetting about the "G" in the word "RPG", namely the GAMING aspect. Which of course isn't really required in roleplaying at all, but most rpg's have REQUIRED game mechanics included in the game, in order to make it balanced and not slaved to the arbitrary imagination fo the roleplayers.

This roleplaying GAME have a few new ways tio deal with game mechanics, which includes a new sort of gear. That does not make it a board game. First of all, where is the BOARD needed to play it? So far I haven't seen much in the way of an actual board in WFRP 3rd ed.

It's not me whose delusional here. You are. And your delusion clearly stems from bitterness, that companies try new approaches to making roleplaying games...

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Varnias Tybalt said:

onlinechaos said:

 

 

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

 

 

ROLPELAYING only requires your imagination. But you keep forgetting about the "G" in the word "RPG", namely the GAMING aspect. Which of course isn't really required in roleplaying at all, but most rpg's have REQUIRED game mechanics included in the game, in order to make it balanced and not slaved to the arbitrary imagination fo the roleplayers.

This roleplaying GAME have a few new ways tio deal with game mechanics, which includes a new sort of gear. That does not make it a board game. First of all, where is the BOARD needed to play it? So far I haven't seen much in the way of an actual board in WFRP 3rd ed.

It's not me whose delusional here. You are. And your delusion clearly stems from bitterness, that companies try new approaches to making roleplaying games...

Go look again the the information released on the game so far, it clearly has a board that is your character card that you build interlocking playing pieces together to develep your character and move counters on.  It is pretty much required to play.  Besides many games classify as board games and don't have actual boards.  You're delusional for buying into it their mony making scheme to require you to purchase all these expensive playing pieces.  There are limitless ways to come up with game mechanics in a RPG without the requirement and purchase of additional playing pieces.  It wasn't done to improve the game, it was done to scam more money from you.  To make you become dependant on their playing pieces to actually play the game.  Oh you lost a die, well you have to buy a new set from FFG.  Need another set of cards for a new player, well buy a new box set from FFG, though I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they'll come out with suppliment playing pieces you can buy seperately eventually. 

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onlinechaos said:

 


...and have less room for real useful aids like battle map and minitures.  

 

Man, you were on a roll onlinechaos, you had me thinking you were really old school...like "Cops and Robbers" and "Cowboys and Indians" oldschool.  But then you went and lost all your minimalist cred with that bit.

You can add whatever bits and bobs you want to an RPG but it can't become a boardgame until you've limited the actions of the players within the game to a finite number, all of which contribute to a well defined endgame result.  So far we've seen nothing that would indicate players are limited in any way from having their characters do whatever they want them to within the game itself.  Cards and tokens doth not a boardgame make.

Edit:  Anyone else having a rough go of quoting other posts in this forum?

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You are limited though, limited by what playing pieces you have.  Oh and if you don't buy their suppliments you're limited on the careers and races you can play.  They purposely limit the content so you buy all their suppliments let alone create a limit based on the playing pieces they give you.  You can't just buy a book with the basic mechanics and play.  You have to buy all these little pieces, which they are hoping you loose so you can buy more pieces to replace them.  Talk about a money pit.  Perhaps with enough suckers that, from this thread obviously exist, it'll support the game for a while.  It is still doomed to fail though, most role players have enough sense to buy into it.

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onlinechaos said:

 

 

Go look again the the information released on the game so far, it clearly has a board that is your character card that you build interlocking playing pieces together to develep your character and move counters on.  It is pretty much required to play.  Besides many games classify as board games and don't have actual boards.  You're delusional for buying into it their mony making scheme to require you to purchase all these expensive playing pieces.  There are limitless ways to come up with game mechanics in a RPG without the requirement and purchase of additional playing pieces.  It wasn't done to improve the game, it was done to scam more money from you.  To make you become dependant on their playing pieces to actually play the game.  Oh you lost a die, well you have to buy a new set from FFG.  Need another set of cards for a new player, well buy a new box set from FFG, though I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they'll come out with suppliment playing pieces you can buy seperately eventually. 

You're clearly not that well informed of manufacture costs. Casting plastic dice and counters is actually a pretty cheap affair. The majority of the high price here is taken up by the FOUR books included in the box. If it is the same high quality prints like other books from FFG then it's no wonder why it's expensive.

So your "argument" of FFG trying to scam people out of their money by buying "expensive" gaming pieces is pretty moot.

If you're gonna go all corporate conspiracy theory on us, then you could at least check your facts about the costs before making such claims...

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onlinechaos said:

You are limited though, limited by what playing pieces you have.  Oh and if you don't buy their suppliments you're limited on the careers and races you can play.  They purposely limit the content so you buy all their suppliments let alone create a limit based on the playing pieces they give you.  You can't just buy a book with the basic mechanics and play.  You have to buy all these little pieces, which they are hoping you loose so you can buy more pieces to replace them.  Talk about a money pit.  Perhaps with enough suckers that, from this thread obviously exist, it'll support the game for a while.  It is still doomed to fail though, most role players have enough sense to buy into it.

I'm not certain that things will be as dire as you think.

The base game will have all the basics. If you WANT extra careers, you can buy the expansion, but FFG isn't holding a gun to your head.

But then again, my opinion is null and void because I'm just a sucker. sad.gif

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onlinechaos said:

You are limited though, limited by what playing pieces you have.  Oh and if you don't buy their suppliments you're limited on the careers and races you can play.  They purposely limit the content so you buy all their suppliments let alone create a limit based on the playing pieces they give you.  You can't just buy a book with the basic mechanics and play.  You have to buy all these little pieces, which they are hoping you loose so you can buy more pieces to replace them.  Talk about a money pit.  Perhaps with enough suckers that, from this thread obviously exist, it'll support the game for a while.  It is still doomed to fail though, most role players have enough sense to buy into it.

Actually the game is designed to be fully playable straight out of the box, which is the whole point of making it a box in the first place...

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donbaloo said:

Edit:  Anyone else having a rough go of quoting other posts in this forum?

The one FFG constant is the poor forum software. A lot of people just copy and paste the quotes in italic text rather than struggle with the forum quoting.

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