Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Duckling

Balance issues between Marines and Germans

Recommended Posts

Still quite new to the game, but after three games I was so frustated to the balance issues I'd like to ask, if any other players have encounter similar problems.  It seems Germans are better in every game area and are totally unbeatable.

As I said we played three games with the story mode and tried both maps.  Every game ended the same. Not a single german hero were killed and Marine heroes were slayed by a single attacks.

Especially the ground level seemed just impossible for the marines.  In our game the germans hided in the long corridor and blocked all the doorways, so marines couldn't attack them.  Germans just attacked marines using that doomweapon that allow to attack different path, while Hermann kept the nearest/strongest marine under his control with his amulet (no matter how far my marines were, he could just move 3-4squares, use his power to cancel my marine attack and draft him close enough to get killed. Then he just backed where he was.)

The close-combat trooper killed two marine heroes by a single attack, while marines did three attack and caused total 0 damage.

 

It seems to me (and my gamegroup) german powers/weapons are way over powered.  Mr Brown has a nice weapon combo, but he was usually controlled by Hermann and couldn't attack even once. Natural 10's are hard to score with 5 dices, even as germans usually have enough stamina to score natural 10 also.  Those flash-automatic-guns seemed quite unusable because of that.  Smoke grenades were great, but they didn't affect to Herman's powers, nor the doomgun as it could be fired outside the smoked path. Above all only one marine heroe can actually benefit from the smoke.

In our last game marines could match even few turns the overpowering germans, but they still didn't do even one dmg to anyone, while their whole group were slayed from different rooms.

 

How can you beat those germans? The main problems with marines are that they lack the ultimate weapons germans have (nothing can be used outside the path) and even as they have some quite powerful guns, they can't use them as they are slayed from the great distances.

 

Three games played:

German troopers slayed: 1

German heroes slayed: 0 (0 wounds after heal)

American troopers slayed: 4

American heroes slayed: 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ive played 6 games and i played the marines on all 6 and ive won 4 times although the 4th time just barely i dont know how to explain the marine strategy and im very tired right now so someone else will have to explain that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This seems to be the common complaint with new players. However, there is hope. In official tournaments, here are the scores:

 

Tannhauserfactionscores.jpg?t=1228161543

 

Here you must take into account that the Matriarch has not been around as long...

Keep working on the Union tactics. I'll look for some of the old articles on the old site to post here.

 

docsavagepu8.png?t=1228005601

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Initially the Union faction is less intuitive to play than the Reich, but I don't think the game is broken. I believe each of the factions have a different play style. Reich can act individually and the Union operates as a team. I understand that in the upcoming Novgorod Expansion the Matriarchy faction is boosted by characters "sacrificing" themselves.

With the Reich you can spread out and be aggressive. With the Union you should team up with characters to cover you. It is tempting, but you should hold off on smoking an area too soon in a game. If you do so, your opponent will just build a strategy around another part of the board and it's wasted (unless your strategy is keep them out of said area). Of course, keep track of the Doompistol and avoid it's range. The Doompistol is very nasty, but it often makes players a bit cocky, so try to lure them. Grenades are quite tricky as you can use them to hit multiple characters, or in the right situation, characters on other paths. Try to use your higher movement to move, attack, and move out of range. Don't forget you can spend up to 2 VP (for Heroes) to boost your movement.

When my group started playing there was a slant towards Reich wins, but it's pretty much evened out. There are more tactics going on now, and it's more about caution and looking for an opportunity when someone makes a mistake. If you are really impatient about reaching a level of parity, I can offer the following suggestions:

• Map - Use the Crypt map. There are more long paths that benefit the Union.

• Game Mode - Instead of Death Match try Domination (less fiddly than Story Mode). We've played a few games where someone solved the Domination objective way before there were any heavy losses (we are always stunned when it happens). Since the Reich is more aggressive and the Union has better movement this might be a good equalizer.

• Experience - Since the Reich requires a lesser degree of finesse, give the less experienced player the Reich. Or if your game group is like mine, give the best player (each group has one, unfortunately it's not me), the Union.

• Handicap - Simply remove the Shocktruppen (least effective Trooper) from the Reich. If the learning curve is spoiling your fun, nip it in the bud.

Try anyone of these suggestions till you start to get even wins and then move on. I hope that helps.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good to know there's actually a chance to beat Reich with Marines:)  We noticed that the catacombs are easier for marines than the ground level, basicly because there are those doorways that can be blocked quite easily with reich units, while Hermann and that doompistol guy can continue attacking.  Those doorways can be very nasty as you can't even hit the unit, which is blocking the line without bullrushing him first.  Reich player kept three of his units to occupy the doorway so it would meant bullrushing through 2-3 units to be able to attack at all.

The most furstrating thing was that in the first two games Reich played their abilities all wrong and I didn't bother to check their abilities myself.  Hermann had custom pack with all three occult symbols and they worked constantly without using to every Reich unit, no matter where they were... Luckily we spent some more time after those two games and those mistakes were corrected. Still the Reich won quite easily.

 

One question about those symbols Hermann posses:

Can every symbol be used only once or can you change the path of the symbol if you want to? The rulebook says that the symbol must be placed to the path(s) targeted, but don't say can they be placed elsewhere later.  If the symbol is placed on a path, can you pick up an equipment to your empty slot, or is the slot used for the rest of the game?

Oh, and can smoke granades cover multiple paths if they are thrown to crosspaths? Rulebook says path(s), when talking about those symbols, but with granades there are no that (s) added. We allowed to smoke multiple paths at once in our games...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been playing Tannhauser on a weekly basis since the day it came out.  I always play in Story Mode, always play the Reich, and usually win.  That being said, here are a few observations that might help a Union player:

* If you look at the French site and follow the tournaments there, you'll see that the Union definitely has the edge over the Reich in the long run, winning almost every month.  So don't despair.

* The Union player tends to obsess on Karl / OZO and his Doompistol and run scared.  Remember, unlike every other weapon in Tannhauser, the Doompistol has limited range.  In a long hallway or open space, OZO's toast.  Also, remember that he only gets one attack per turn.  If a few characters gang up on him, one may die, but the others will take him out.

* The Union characters can drop, pick up, and swap items right and left to optimise performance for particular tasks.  Most of the tokens for the Reich characters can't be dropped, which means: a) their less versatile, and b) they don't have empty spaces that allow them to pick stuff up.  I've often been in the situation where I've killed MacNeal, but don't have anyone who can pick up his cool handgun or Nighteyes.  I end up having to waste a character just guarding the items to keep the Union player from retrieving them.

* The versatility of the Union characters compared with those of the Reich emphasizes what Littlewars already said here -- the Union works best as a team, while the Reich characters are loners.

* Smoke REALLY sucks!  But Union players often don't use it effectively.  If the smoke grenades are used too early in the game, they just become a change in the map and the Reich player can work around them.  In my opinion, the best uses of smoke grenades are: 1) in a 1-2 punch where one Union character drops a grenade that envelops a Reich character who has already moved that turn, and then a second Union character moves in to kill the disabled Reich character, and 2) to smoke the areas around the Reich player's objectives and have someone with Nighteyes hang back, forcing the Reich to move into the smoke (and the Union characters's kill-zone) in order to complete the objective.

* Keep careful track of those new tokens that come out every month, especially at the French website.  You can swap them in for tokens in your characters' Packs.  At first glance, some of the tokens may not seem that powerful or useful, but how many times have you taken a Pack in order to get a character's special item, only to be stuck with a token that doesn't really do anything for you?  Swap it out for one of those monthly or tournament tokens from the FFG or French site.

And, on a general note for both sides, NEVER leave two or more of your characters standing with one empty space between them.  That's just begging for a grenade!

Anyway, that's just a few thoughts for now.  I would love to hear more about what other players think about strategy & tactics in Tannhauser.

Don Frew

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Duckling said:

 

One question about those symbols Hermann posses:

Can every symbol be used only once or can you change the path of the symbol if you want to? The rulebook says that the symbol must be placed to the path(s) targeted, but don't say can they be placed elsewhere later.  If the symbol is placed on a path, can you pick up an equipment to your empty slot, or is the slot used for the rest of the game?

 

 

Each of the Hermeticas are one shot. It can't be retrieved and placed on another path. Also, don't forget to remove it from the board if Heizinger dies!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all replies.  One question remained unanswered (can Hermann pick up something after he's used his hermatic power), but posts have been helpful.  We just played two games tonight and I actually won the other with the marines, so it seems they actually can win :)

Dices were on my side this time and better tactics with especially smokes were used.  Someone said those smokes aren't good at all, but I have to disagee. Without the smokes I wouldn't have a chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since Hermann's hermetica are permanently removed from his character sheet when he uses them I think they should be treated as disposable equipment. That is, yes, he can fill that slot with other equipment after using the hermetica.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Few more questions that might explain why we have such great difficulties to beat Germans.

The most difficult thing has been slaying Hermann and Karl, who have stayed inside rooms, blocking the doors while using their abilities that can be targeted to different paths (amulet and doom).  I read the description of Doom for 6th time after getting my assed kick again and noticed the text "bullets do not go through walls and must move legally along paths).  Does this means doom can't be shoot through doors, because one can't shoot through doors normally either (no shared paths).  If this is indeed true, does the same apply with the Herman's powers?  In other words Hermans powers and doom's bullets can be tracked by one square by one and every single track must be legal.

 

A question about granades:

Can grenades explode through doors?  The path is again different, but if the granade can be thrown dircetly front of the door, will the explode radius reach the spot ehind the door (if a player can move there spending one movement point).

 

The board includes doors and doorways without a door.  In this message I mean doors, when squares in each squares don't share the same color.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

derros87 is correct,

The doors are just used as a map device to break paths. They do not function as walls, so they do not block grenades and that's what makes grenades handy...

For the Doompistol just figure out the legal range as if you were moving a character on a path. The bullets can move through doors but not walls. It can always target characters on another path, if they are in range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, that's disapointing :)  In last game Karl was standing in a room just behind a door and killed two of my troopers and one of my heroes, while I couldn't do anything.  As the range was 7 and he could move 3-4 squares in every turn and just go back after shooting there were not really any place I was safe.  Granades are good of course, but in that case they were useless.  The door was in a small room and granade couln't be thrown next to it, as there were not a single square where the range would be at least 4.  Only thing I could have done would be enter the room from different door and that meant spending 4-5 turns just for movement.

 

The doom is indeed a very powerful weapon and I'm not sure how can I survive against it.  Smokes don't help at all because Karl can always move away from it and keep firing even if I keep my own soldiers inside the smoke.

Fights are somewhat tighter than in the beginning, but that doom-door block combo is something I haven't beated so far and it's very easy to use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try not to get in the mind set of just getting him or else. It sounds like you are playing Deathmatch. Make him come out. Save grenades for him if you can. Go find a crate to check or do something else instead of just letting him turtle behind the door.

I don't have the rules in front of me, but do doors block Hand to Hand?

 

 

docsavagepu8.png?t=1228464428

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah doors do block the hand-to-hand attacks as well as all other attacks with normal weapons.  That's the biggest problem as only granades can be used to kill/wound a guy standing behind the door and they can't be used always because of their great range.  That's why I also thought that maybe the doom gun can't be used to shoot through the door either.

 

We are always playing the story mode, but especially in the ground level map, the game usually involves a lot of fighting and wiping a team is more common than completing all the objectives.  The distances in that map are not so great and that's why killing Karl is so important.  He can easily control about 1/4 of the map from one room, preventing marines to get those objectives in that area.  The underground map is much easier with marines, as already said.  Doom gun is pretty useless there compared to the other map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...