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Thenightgaunt

Are the prices a bit high?

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Because many people don't think, they just react.

Ever wonder why products are always priced as X.99 or X.95? I mean there is no real reason to do that except to govern perception.

People see this and say $100 for a Core or $50 for a ship, oh that is too expensive. They don't stop and look at what actually playing the game would cost or what is actually involved in those products deemed too expensive.

In many people's minds 100 is too expensive for any single gaming related purchase regardless of what the 100 is actually buying. This is an issue that Armada will have to face.

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Because many people don't think, they just react.

Ever wonder why products are always priced as X.99 or X.95? I mean there is no real reason to do that except to govern perception.

People see this and say $100 for a Core or $50 for a ship, oh that is too expensive. They don't stop and look at what actually playing the game would cost or what is actually involved in those products deemed too expensive.

In many people's minds 100 is too expensive for any single gaming related purchase regardless of what the 100 is actually buying. This is an issue that Armada will have to face.

 

That was my thought. People don't often make good or accurate financial comparisons on short term vs long term costs. 

 

When I look at Armada, I'm comparing it in my head to what I've spent on other wargames (X-Wing especially). From the comments on here it sounds like alot of experienced wargamers have that same mindset when looking at it. 

 

But when someone with little to no wargamming experience looks at the product they probably won't think of it that way. They may just see that $100 price tag and be put off by it. 

 

The latter case bothers me a little because games thrive on new players entering the community. Though one thing to think about is how Armada's success or failure will be impacted by X-Wing's success as well as the inevitable resurgence in Star Wars popularity when the next movie comes out. Will those 2 factors be enough to counter the influence of that starting price point? 

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I don't think FFG is overly concerned with thier target market suffering from sticker shock. Because most of thier target market is accustomed to products in this range or at the very least puts a bit more thought into thier evaluation.

But because of the diverse product line FFG does have a diverse clientele which is both a blessing and a curse. The blessing aspect is clear, but the curse has always been you get people that are unfamiliar with a product line casting spurious judgement on it.

Boardgamers have called the LCG format expensive at every turn simply because it involves expansion, and yet to every MTG refugee any LCG is a dream as far as cost.

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Theyre marketing this a sBIG High end expensive game.

Imperial Assault costs $100 as well, is that a big high end expensive game?

 

Yes. It certainly made me balk when I discovered it. £80 in the UK, same as Armada (if I remember correctly). I am used to games being pricy, but £40-50 seems more normal for a board game. Imperial Assault is pretty uncommon at its price level. However, you do get much more of a game out of the Imperial Assault base game than you do with X-wing and Armada. The starter sets for those twoare basically tasters, rather than justifiable games in their own right, and there is a heck of a lot more play time in the base game of Imperial Assault than the others. Yes, it will be expanding, which I will be going for, but you don't have to buy into those to play the game as intended, while for Armada and X-wing you don't get the experience of the game that was intended until you buy more. Now, X-Wing's starter is about the level where you can go "Oh, lets see what this game is like then", while Aramada isn't. Unless you are going to buy into the game fully (and then yes, it comes out comparably to many miniatures game, and maybe even better), that is a lot of money for a taster, and buying into both factions is pretty prohibitive. Splitting it with some mates might be more feasible...

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While the X-Wing Core Set is certainly cheaper, I think the concept that Armada is really more expensive then X-wing is a bit of a misnomer. Or at the very least pre-mature.

As posted earlier in the thread there is a sizeable difference between the costs of various X-wing lists. To just get a list on the table for X-wing is far cheaper then actually cultivating a playable stable of even a single faction. I mean it's not unreasonable for most players to own 3-4 X-wings, A-wings, B-wings, and Z-95s; despite the fact that they'll never utilize all those at one time.

Until we see Wave 1 in full we won't really have an accurate accounting of how much a playable stable of ships really costs.

It is not odd to think that while individual ship prices are higher actual list costs let alone collection costs may be more in line between the two games.

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I am not sure it really matters though for the wave 1 in ship costs. I am thinking that lists may include CR90 spams, Simgle VSD with TIE spams, ASF with X-WIngs. I dont think lists are going to be enormous in costs but I do think I am getting WAY more value for my $100 core set. (and like I sad I have 2, and for peoples age assumptions I am 25, no kids and a decent security job)

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I had been looking at those Dropzone Commander minis a few days ago when they were on sale at MM, I had no idea they were so ADORABLY tiny.

 

I think there's a lot of ideas in this thread, and the issue is really complicated. I know I was a little crestfallen when I opened my core set to find the huge box was mostly empty space. But, getting those models on the table, and seeing that great art on the cards, and throwing waves of fighters at each other... that redeemed the price tag in my eyes.

 

I'm glad no one here feels cheated out of their hundred dollars for the core. I know I'm very tempted to even pick up a second. I do worry that a hundred dollars for the core will turn off a lot of people from , and for that I wish it was a little cheaper, but I'm sure FFG has a marketing division that knows what they're doing.

 

For what it's worth, it was pointed out to me in another thread that if you buy from places like MM, the prices between X-Wing and Armada get a lot closer. $40 for X-Wing is sixty dollars cheaper than the $100 core for Armada, but if you buy from a place like Miniature Market, the Armada core set drops to $67, and the core for X-Wing drops to $27, and the difference is now only forty dollars.

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I got to agree here. The price comes up all the time. Guys telling me they wanted it then saw the sticker price and declined. I passed on a second core set as well. I'll guarantee it's hurting sales which bothers me because it limits the player pool. I think it's a better game with great multiplayer and campaign potential. It'd be sad if it doesn't grow to it's full potential.

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I keep hearing about the start-up cost of this game vs. X-wing and how this is going to be a more casual game.  I will have to disagree in a general.  While it may put off some x-wing players due to the "high" startup cost from what they are used to I think that many would be willing to give it a shot once more of the ship start comming out.   I was actually playing at a local shop duirng there normal x-wing night and ended up 3 of the players picked up the starter just from the demo game.  All but two of the others are going to wait till the expanisions start comming out.   Also keep in mind they have a very good tournament setup that is going to the standard 400pts at wave 2.  

 

THe 100 price points seems to be a more serious entry point for most games while the $40 entry seems to be more for casual games.  In fact the play style of x-wing is must more akin to a casual game while Armada is for more competive/serious games.  Now this is just my two cents but don't see the price point really stoping the game from growing ONCE the expansions start comming out and people see what full games start looking like.

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I had been looking at those Dropzone Commander minis a few days ago when they were on sale at MM, I had no idea they were so ADORABLY tiny.

 

So I saw your user name and thought "how does someone remember that when they log in. . . " then I saw the pattern :P I laughed so hard!

 

DZC is SOOOOOOO tiny. 15mm games are just so little. . . yet so pricey. . . I think Flames of War is 15mm as well.

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I think people are too quick to attack FFG, in this case the cost of the starter. As others have shown you save 17 to 20 dollars picking up the starter. That is in addition to damage decks, scenario tokens, dice and rules.

I was originally in the wait and see if it's worth it croud. After going through the box and assembling the bases, speed dials and command dials I realized how much plastic and cardboard you actually got for your money.

I bought my second core the next day.

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I am not sure it really matters though for the wave 1 in ship costs. I am thinking that lists may include CR90 spams, Simgle VSD with TIE spams, ASF with X-WIngs. I dont think lists are going to be enormous in costs but I do think I am getting WAY more value for my $100 core set. (and like I sad I have 2, and for peoples age assumptions I am 25, no kids and a decent security job)

Well, at least the "Single VSD" and "Single ASF" won't happen. I think it is near impossible to put 200 points into either of those ships and you cannot have more than 100 points of squadrons in a 300 point list.

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Another thing is that for FFG as a whole it doesn't make business sense to have 2 miniatures games at identical starter box price points. Now, they can sell Armada at the higher price point, and if people balk at it and buy X-Wing instead, they still have a sale.

 

It's also not as easy as saying "lower the price, get more sales". Margin matters as well. I could sell £10 notes for £9 all day every day, doesn't make it good business.

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Why are you compare Armada to WH 40K? That two different game scale. GW games (WH40K and WFB) aren’t skirmish games and you field in them much more miniatures than in any  skirmish games. In my opinion you should compare Armada to another pure skirmish games like: X-Wing, Infinity, Warmhordes, Malifaux, or Dystopian Wars. Now question is: are you comparing entry point to the game , starter set for the game or situation when you have flexibility in creating an army/fleet? Because in all of this situation answer could be different. Other thing is that in my opinion FFG still have bad release model for pure miniatures battle games. Why? Because you must buy starter box with two factions, or some boxes from which you  need only one card to get some things you need for official tournaments. In each game from other companies, you have access to all things separately. You want to start play one faction? Ok, you can. Later you want buy another one? Ok, still no problem. Maybe you prefer expanse the first you bought? Still no problem. In my opinion all markers and cards not assignment to specific ship should be sell separately. If both of FFG games wouldn’t be Star Wars (fan boy onJ) franchise i never ever look for them.

 

Ok now, to the cost of games:

- for Infinity, starter cost is 49,95$ (5-6 miniatures), tournament army is about 130-160$ (10-20 miniatures).

- for Malifaux it’s 45$ for starter (5-6 miniatures), about 100$ for tournament (about 10 miniatures).

- for Spartan Games (Dystopian Wars and Firestorm Armada), starter is about 45$, i don’t know for tournament composition.

 

So, is Armada in line with them? Really hard to tell because:

- miniatures are different in size if you compare ISD to single soldier but nearly this same if you look at them vs Corellian Corvette.

- prepainting vs unpainting models, for one it’s a positive, for others negative, let’s say it honestly, painting miniatures is very subjective and i don’t want judge this, so skip this at point that painting miniatures should be more expensive.

- additional stuff (cards, markers) in boxes.

- two factions vs one in a starter box.

 

Taking this into consideration, in my opinion Armada box price is a bit higher to the other games, but not so much not to buy it.

 

For the end, curious fact. I persuaded friend of mine to X-wing. It was really hard becasue he wanted start this game with S&V faction but he realized that he will need starter box and some others boxes only for damage, and expansion cards, move trays and so on for legal tournaments games, and he cannot buy what he need freely. For starting players this can be rally discouraging.

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It's funny how people are complaining how expensive this game is. When you look at the over all price of X-wing and some of the cheaper or more expensive lists.

World's 2014 winning list - Paul Heaver

Fat Han (Predator + C-3PO + R2-D2 + Falcon Title + Engine) + 3 Z-95s

Starter set - $40

Falcon - $30

Tantive IV - $90

Defender - $15

Z-95 x 3 - $45

Total = $215

World's Runner up list - Morgan Reid

Whisper (VI + FCS + Tactician + ACD) + Academy x 3 + Howlrunner (Swarm Tactics) 

Starter set x 2 - $80

Tie Fighter - $15

Tie Phantom - $15

Firespray or Falcon - $30

Lambda Shuttle - $30

Total = $170

Multiple Store Championship list

B - Wing x 4 + Z-95 Headhunter

Starter set - $40

B-Wings x 4 = $60

Z-95 x 1 - $15

Total = $115

Panic Attack list

B-Wing x 3 (Tactitian + E2 upgrade) + Y-Wing (Ion cannon turret + R3-A2)

Starter set - $40

B-Wing x 1 - $15

Rebel Aces x 2 - $60

Y-Wing x 1 - $15

Rebel Transport - $60

Tie Phantoms x 3 - $45

Total = $235

Tie Swarm

Howlruner (Swarm Tactics) + Backstabber + Black (Draw their fire) + 3 x Acadamies + Obsidian

Starter set x 3 - $120

Tie Fighter - $15

Falcon - $30

Total = $165

Fat Dash and Corran

Dash (PTL + Kyle + Engine + HLC + Outrider) Corran (VI + R2-D2+ FCS)

Starter set - $40

Dash - $30

E-Wing - $15

Falcon - $30

Rebel Aces - $30

A-Wing - $15

B-Wing - $15

Total = $175

Every X-Wing list costs you at least $100. Some lists are really unique and only have 1 application while some are really diverse in their usage. Take a second and this about what the average list costs you to put together.

Edit: Spelling and Grammar 

.

I think you just proved the Armada is expensive. $100 and you have the core set, which does nothing competitively. To fill the rest of your fleet with ISD, Gladiators and squadrons, it will be ~$300.

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a 300 point fleet will realistically run you much less than $300, especially if you use online markets for discounted prices

 

You could take

 

Core Set (retail $100)

Victory (retail $40)

Fighter Squadrons ($20 each) x 2 = $40

 

$180 for 300 points and all the implicit variations between victories and squadrons, or $200 if you want a pair of gladiators instead

 

Haven't really built lists for 400 yet, but you could potentially add two Gladiators for a total of $240/$260

 

rebs are a bit cheaper, with the Neb filling the same point bracket as the Gladiator but weighing in at $10 less

 

 

of course, given tournament rules setting the points limits at 180 (coreset), 300 (wave 1), and 400 (wave 2), the core set is a competitive purchase until wave 1 is released (and hopefully, unlike the X-wing core, the rebel ships included won't be so outdated in the future)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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And how many people stop with just one competitive build in X-Wing?  Flying the same thing over and over and over builds familiarity, but gets boring after a while...so there is a desire to buy more stuff.

End result, both games are expensive...it's just a question of the degree of expensive, and where the individual decides to stop.
 

 

I had been looking at those Dropzone Commander minis a few days ago when they were on sale at MM, I had no idea they were so ADORABLY tiny.

 

So I saw your user name and thought "how does someone remember that when they log in. . . " then I saw the pattern :P I laughed so hard!

 

DZC is SOOOOOOO tiny. 15mm games are just so little. . . yet so pricey. . . I think Flames of War is 15mm as well.

 

Dropzone is 10mm, Flames is 15mm.

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I think the Armada stuff is a little expensive.  So much so that it may keep some people from joining in.

Wave 1 armada (1 of each expansion) is $150 retail.

Wave 2 armada (1 of each expansion) is $160 retail.

Base game is $100 retail.

$410 gets you the base game plus 3 packs of fighters, plus 9 expansion ships. 

 

Xwing:

2 cores = $80 retail

2 of each wave 1 expansion = $120

2 awings, 2 ints = $60

1 firespray, 1 TY1300 = $60

$320 and you have 2 cores plus 12 small expansions and 2 medium expansion.

 

20 ships plus double the core material for significantly less cost.  There is a lot of flexibility in that.  Where as the Armada list above is only 1 core and 12 ships with a ton of fighters (but relatively limited specialized fighters).  The X-wing list also has a lot more flexibility in the ships as you have a wider variety and matching pairs of the ships where as Armada is going to be 1 of everything except for the core ships.

X-wing waves all sit at about $120 for a reasonable assortment, while armada is sitting at $150-$160 for a bare minimum.

 

Some additional things to consider.  Similar sized ships for armada seem to be significantly more expensive.  So component cost can't really be the issue.  And god forbid they put incredibly valuable, non-duplicated cards in expensive expansions.  I can just see the ISD having something that you'll want on every ship in your fleet or something.  Now I need 4 of them so I can play without proxies at tournaments.  $15 for a card is one thing.  $50 is a little different.

 

All in all, it seems that FFG has realized how incredibly gullible we are.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm still buying armada, but only a minimal amount, and I've cut my X-wing collecting to accommodate it.

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This game is expensive. :(

I feel X-Wing was more reasonable. $50 for the Imperial Star Destroyer is crazy. That's half the cost of the full game.  :angry:

 

The VT-49 is $40 MSRP.

Were I a betting man, I would bet that the Imperial Star Destroyer will be at least 25% more imposing than a VT-49.

 

 

 

So now we base cost on how imposing it is?

 

For everyone's info, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Not really try to argue with everyone, but I do think it's a little expensive and hope they lower the prices so more people can get in to this game. Let the friendly discussion continue.

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Some additional things to consider.  Similar sized ships for armada seem to be significantly more expensive.  So component cost can't really be the issue.  And god forbid they put incredibly valuable, non-duplicated cards in expensive expansions.  I can just see the ISD having something that you'll want on every ship in your fleet or something.  Now I need 4 of them so I can play without proxies at tournaments.  $15 for a card is one thing.  $50 is a little different.

 

the upgrade cards are completely null and void for both systems in casual games

 

if you want to talk non-duplicated upgrade cards in a competitive setting, you'll have to add

 

1.) rebel -aces for the Awings (Refit & title)

2.) Imperial Raider for the Advance

3.) CR90 for the YT1300

 

to your initial wave 1 purchases. The Yt-1300 is competitive out the box (but 3po is so borked that you are losing efficiency no matter what else you use) but the A-wing and Tie Advance are completely gimped without their auto-include upgrades

Edited by ficklegreendice

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This one has gone in some interesting directions. There seems to be a theme running through here of value vs entry level. 

 

On the one hand, the quality of the ships is really fantastic and that's something we got with X-Wing as well. I bought the CR-90 mostly as a decoration piece as it looked fantastic. And that's actually what kept me from picking up Star Trek Attack Wing. The Star Trek ships just look cheaper than the Star Wars ones. 

Then include the general costs involved in miniature wargamming. Compared to say Warhammer 40k, Armada doesn't come close in terms of cost.

 

On the other side, it seems like the pricing, and the nature of the X-Wing game both made it a very attractive and easily accessible miniature game. The box looks pretty, the 3 ships looked great, and at $40 it cost less than a video game. So more people play it and I can pretty easily find a game of X-Wing going on during the week in my town.

But part of me is worried that with the higher initial cost, I may not be able to find many Armada games as easily. While I've spent a ton on X-Wing, it was over time so the cost didn't really register. But with Armada that may be a bit trickier a proposition. 

 

Now I liked Armada and really want to get more ships as they come out. But I'm not getting a second box and I don't think I can talk my friends into investing in it on a whim either (so we'll be using my set when we play). 

 

So I suppose my follow-up question for the thread would be: do you think the price point will be a formidable barrier to entry for average/new players? Now I'm not talking about old wargammers. If you were putting together Ork armies back before 3rd ed. D&D was a thing, then I'm not talking about you. You'd probably not mind the costs in comparison. I'm talking about fresh blood;.a gamer who's never played a wargame before. Someone who's walking around the gaming store between magic/pokemon games and sees the Armada box on the shelf. 

 

 

Thank you. I think that is the exact thinking people "complaining" about the high cost. I already bought the core set so this is my thinking also.

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This game is expensive. :(

I feel X-Wing was more reasonable. $50 for the Imperial Star Destroyer is crazy. That's half the cost of the full game.  :angry:

The VT-49 is $40 MSRP.

Were I a betting man, I would bet that the Imperial Star Destroyer will be at least 25% more imposing than a VT-49.

 

 

So now we base cost on how imposing it is?

 

For everyone's info, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Not really try to argue with everyone, but I do think it's a little expensive and hope they lower the prices so more people can get in to this game. Let the friendly discussion continue.

Yes, a model that is substantially larger then another is typically speaking going to cost more. It cost more to make afterall. We also know that the ISD includes more components (cards, tokens, dials) then the Decimator.

So if a model is larger and comes with more stuff, how could we expect it to not be more expensive?

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For everyone's info, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Not really try to argue with everyone, but I do think it's a little expensive and hope they lower the prices so more people can get in to this game. Let the friendly discussion continue.

It's unlikely that FFG will lower the prices -- after all, newer X-Wing ships are slightly more expensive.  However, there are alternatives to paying full MSRP.

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Ksin, you can't just discount the added cost of pre-painted and pre-assembled models. While some people play games just to model and paint figures, the reality is painting and assembling the models for you adds cost to the product.

Additionally the games you mentioned (Dystopian, Warmachine, Infinity, Mailfaux, etc) don't come with the rules for free. All of those require you to buy a (sometimes multiple) rulebook that costs between $40-60 just to play the game. They also don't include the tokens or tools you need to play the game, and in the cases that they do (Dystopian Wars) it's card stock chit you cut out.

There are alot of hidden costs in those games that are not present in FFGs products.

I can speak to Warmachine best as I played that competitively for a number of years. Just the un-built un-painted models for a single list are going to run you about what you'll spend on your collection of Armada for both sides through Wave 1. And that's if you only want to play that one list over and over.

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I will be bound and determined to play this game. Cost is going to be high, but for the quality of the product and what everyone is saying, it appears that this game is quite fun and will be worth it. I suppose it is all about prioritizing.

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