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Thenightgaunt

Are the prices a bit high?

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i think the far most expansive part is the chineese manual labor put into painting the models. they assemble our mobile phones and dye our clothings with cancerogenious substances as well so yea, close to slavery and definitively against the main articles in all of our constitutions but its not happening here so its "completly ok" as long as we can happy, happy consume. we are still in the brutal medieval times. but hey lets not do the political rant - noones wants to hear and its completly out of place to talk about it like everywhere, right?

 

I worked for a game company, and I found out their cost of producing a card/board game.  They don't like using Chinese manufacturers, but they have to use them to keep costs down and remain competitive.  If someplace in the US could produce the game as cheeply as the chinese do we wouldn't have this issue

 

Things like Tariffs were suppose to prevent this from happening.

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they wanted to increase the profit margin.

 

the process used to manufacture such plastic parts is spray forming. you spray hot liquid plastic in a mold until it comes out on the other end. thats why you see those in and outlets plastic parts standing off which are normaly cut off eigther by factory or by hand using an exacto knife in wargaming. the shape of the item cast does not realy impact the price per piece. the modelling process in CAD once did cost some flat ammount and thats more if the model is more detailed, ok - but on a per piece basis its just the cost of the volume of the plastic. Drawing the base in CAD takes about 15mins if youre used to the programm so .. yea.

 

i think the far most expansive part is the chineese manual labor put into painting the models. they assemble our mobile phones and dye our clothings with cancerogenious substances as well so yea, close to slavery and definitively against the main articles in all of our constitutions but its not happening here so its "completly ok" as long as we can happy, happy consume. we are still in the brutal medieval times. but hey lets not do the political rant - noones wants to hear and its completly out of place to talk about it like everywhere, right?

You really oversimplified that. There are many more factors to that than just material cost, mate. Logistics are one.

You know, it's like you said that they could be selling core sets for 20$ because that's still less than it's manufacturing cost.

 

 

oh i didnt quote that i related that to one of the first replies who said that the "complexity" of the base in comparison to x-wing bases might be responsible for the costs.

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i think the far most expansive part is the chineese manual labor put into painting the models. they assemble our mobile phones and dye our clothings with cancerogenious substances as well so yea, close to slavery and definitively against the main articles in all of our constitutions but its not happening here so its "completly ok" as long as we can happy, happy consume. we are still in the brutal medieval times. but hey lets not do the political rant - noones wants to hear and its completly out of place to talk about it like everywhere, right?

 

I worked for a game company, and I found out their cost of producing a card/board game.  They don't like using Chinese manufacturers, but they have to use them to keep costs down and remain competitive.  If someplace in the US could produce the game as cheeply as the chinese do we wouldn't have this issue

 

Things like Tariffs were suppose to prevent this from happening.

 

 

and i dont believe that it ever was different. i.e. with bondmen, slavery or when exploiting the colonies in the colonial age. its just a new name on it but still the old irresponsible and immoral thing. the products and lifestyle i have and buy rely on this as well. its so easy to ignore if people dont complain or die in your own nice frontyard.

 

as you said a single company cant help but try to be competetive, a single country can not as well on the worlds market. still its not ok. sorry for bringing that topic up, it just campe sour to my mind.

 

back to topic: come to the dark side!

Edited by madtulip

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Simple. The models for Star Ship Battles still sell for decent cash, even though the game is terrible. The ISD still sells for $30 online. I think $50 (~$40 online expected) is a great price for a much higher quality miniature in a currently active game with very good rule system.

From a models standpoint, I think the comparison with Starship battles is apt. The rules were not that great but the models were pretty good. Not as good as FFGs, but probably 80 percent of the quality.

A booster pack of 6 ships cost 20 or 24 dollars and included at least on large, like an ISD.

Now, to buy non random ships from a place like mini market, the high end was 20 bucks for an ISD, but most ships were less.

Models are comparable in size, models were 80 percent of the quality, and half the cost.

As a game, I think armada is far superior to star ship battles rules wise, and better quality as well. But it does not justify double the price. Having said that, I'll still buy it but I know several others who are in to xwing who are giving armada a pass, mostly due to price.

The ISD looks to be about the same size as the decimator to me, so 30 bucks feels about right. 50 is clearly too high.

I find it interesting that everyone always wants to use more expensive systems to defend FFG. That's like saying "well Iran is not as hostile as North Korea ". That's not really the point. The question is, is armada overpriced? Not is it a better value than XYZ.

I think it costs more than it should. I will be buying it, but many others I know will not, which means it's not going to get as much playtime, as there will be fewer people to play with.

Edited by Darthfish

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People use the comparisons because that it is really the only basis they have to evaluate.

I mean is Armada expensive? I can find you people that will fall on both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between. Expensive is inherently relative. My father would get bent out of shape if he knew what I spent on gaming, but hey he just bought he's got tools in his shop he's used once or twice that cost upwards of a grand. I work in a rather expensive restaurant and I've seen people of comparative income levels have polar opposite reactions to a bill.

So since expensive is relative all people have to go on is is it expensive compared to it's peers.

I mean what basis are you using to declare it overpriced as you have?

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Simple. The models for Star Ship Battles still sell for decent cash, even though the game is terrible. The ISD still sells for $30 online. I think $50 (~$40 online expected) is a great price for a much higher quality miniature in a currently active game with very good rule system.

From a models standpoint, I think the comparison with Starship battles is apt. The rules were not that great but the models were pretty good. Not as good as FFGs, but probably 80 percent of the quality.

A booster pack of 6 ships cost 20 or 24 dollars and included at least on large, like an ISD.

Now, to buy non random ships from a place like mini market, the high end was 20 bucks for an ISD, but most ships were less.

Models are comparable in size, models were 80 percent of the quality, and half the cost.

As a game, I think armada is far superior to star ship battles rules wise, and better quality as well. But it does not justify double the price. Having said that, I'll still buy it but I know several others who are in to xwing who are giving armada a pass, mostly due to price.

The ISD looks to be about the same size as the decimator to me, so 30 bucks feels about right. 50 is clearly too high.

I find it interesting that everyone always wants to use more expensive systems to defend FFG. That's like saying "well Iran is not as hostile as North Korea ". That's not really the point. The question is, is armada overpriced? Not is it a better value than XYZ.

I think it costs more than it should. I will be buying it, but many others I know will not, which means it's not going to get as much playtime, as there will be fewer people to play with.

 

I'm afraid I will come out as an overly protective fanboy in this thread, but the thing with comparisons is that while ships might be pricey for most people, just remember that a playable force is semi-objectively (through comparison) pretty reasonably priced when compared to other games from this genre. This, unlike X-Wing, is a wargame and in my opinion comparisons are okay.

 

Noone is trying to justify the prices here - I am sure that every single person in this thread would rather pay less (well, I guess we'd all spend the same money, just on more stuff :D), it's just that we find arguing about the high price while it's fairly regular if not cheap to those accustomed to other wargames not too reasonable when you look at it more objectively from the perspective of wargaming instead of board gaming, although still remember that x-wing squad's final cost is high due to the cards from expansions you wouldn't otherwise need as I mentioned.

 

So, tl;dr - a playable fleet is reasonably priced, so in the bigger picture it's not overpriced. It's just single pieces that are fairly expensive when you only look at them separately.

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Ok, I preordered off of Amazon in order to only pay $70ish for the core set, and as I'm looking at the prices for future expansions I'm wondering why these are priced so high? 

 

Now don't get me wrong, I like the level of detail I'm seeing on these ships but a tiny little CR90 expansion's been priced at about $19.95 and that's the cheapest one on the current list. It looks the small ships are going to be priced around that much for something on par (so to speak) with the level of detail we got from the B-Wings. 

 

I'm not actually put off by the $40 price on the Victory-Class Star Destroyer but the X-Wing Falcon looks about the same rough size and level of detail and that sucker's selling for $30ish. 

 

So this is less of a "how dare they" rant and more of just a general thought on the reason why these have been priced somewhat higher then the X-Wing ships. I'm wondering if their costs on the manufacturing side have gone up, or if after X-Wing, they've adjusted their sales projections (I'm an MBA so I enjoy this kind of stuff). Or even if it's an attempt to diminish game sizes by pricing higher. In essence, through a higher price point making the Armada game seem a bit more elite than X-wing.

 

Either way I'd still recommend dropping down the default price on that core set at some point. $100 bucks can be a bit steep for some gamers who'd be just as happy to pay only $60 for the core set and then basically $80 for the individual ships expansions for the same ships that make it up that core set. Though we all know the value of random, unasked for free advice. ^_^

 

 

 

This game is expensive. :(

I feel X-Wing was more reasonable. $50 for the Imperial Star Destroyer is crazy. That's half the cost of the full game.  :angry:

 

 

I'm not totally sure what you mean by "full" game... There is no such thing as the "full game" when you are looking at expandable miniatures games - when you look at the CORE set for Warhammer Fantasy, do you look at the $120 price on the box and say to yourself "Yup, that's what the game costs!"

 

No!  You look at it as a starting point, you look at it like the place to get a rule book, some figures to start your armies, and the tokens and templates you need to buy.

 

Then you start adding 50+ dollar units to your force.  Pretty soon your army is worth ten times (at least) that initial purchase of $120.

 

Armada might be a little (cough a lot cough) more expensive than X-Wing.  But that in no way invalidates the pricing structure of expansions vs core sets.  The millenium falcon is $30.  that's 100% of the "Full game" in x-wing.  Are you crying havoc and letting loose the dogs of war when they release an expensive figure for that game?

 

Probably not.  

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For me, this is a two pronged question. Is Armada too expensive...in the US? Not really it's great value and the quality of the game that you get balances this out especially as everything is painted and ready to go. If you want to repaint them you can but if you don't they're all set.

 

Is Armada quite pricey in the UK, I would question possibly. It's alot better than X-Wing (we pay the same in sterling as you do in dollars for the ships...) but it can be quite tricky. Then again, when I spend £26/7 on a Victory star Destroyer, i get the ship, different upgrade cards and everything I'd need to put that ship right into action.

 

If FFG screwed us around with problematic changes, unexpected price increases and overall bad service I'd be concerned but my overall view is that the product they provide for the price is certainly worth it.

 

That and where else can you get Star Wars this good ;)

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Actually having re-read Darthfish's post I have to say his comparisons are downright laughable.

Even just glossing over the blind-booster game with poor quality and a horrible rule set, in what sense is the upcoming ISD anywhere close in size to X-Wings Decimator?

The Decimator is close in size to the current VSD, and as we've seen in side by side comparisons the upcoming ISD is at least half again as long, substantially wider, and substantially taller. In what galaxy is a model estimated at 21-23cm in length and 14cm in width the size of the Decimator?

Edited by ScottieATF

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Actually having re-read Darthfish's post I have to say his comparisons are downright laughable.

Even just glossing over the blind-booster game with poor quality and a horrible rule set, in what sense is the upcoming ISD anywhere close in size to X-Wings Decimator?

The Decimator is close in size to the current VSD, and as we've seen in side by side comparisons the upcoming ISD is at least half again as long, substantially wider, and substantially taller. In what galaxy is a model estimated at 21-23cm in length and 14cm in width the size of the Decimator?

Does anyone have actual measurements of the ISD? I will measure a decimator and post the results, then we'll see about laughable.

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Scottie, unless you can give me the accurate size of the ISD, I'd be a little more careful about calling my claim laughable. I already said this is rules wise a much better game than SSB, and that the quality of the FFG miniatures was probably 20 percent better (a subjective claim, I am sure). But in your post you are claiming that an ISD is going to be 23 to 24 cm in length. That is nearly a foot long. Now THAT IS laughable.

I was also not the one who originally brought up SSB for comparison, but it is the closest comparison. I have a fleet that includes 3 ISDs, an SSD, and about 200 other ships, and I have under 350 in the whole collection, and I bought those before the game completely tanked.

I certainly think that armada is head and shoulders above SSB in every way, including price.

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Please remember that Chinese manufacturing costs have increased dramatically over the past 5 years.

And the other important point is the SSB ISD is $30 if you want one now, that is for a game that ended 8 years ago.

So I think $50 is a GREAT price for an ISD for a current game that is at least 20% better quality than the next best alternative.

So please remember ALL prices are determined by comparison to the next best Alternative.

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Scottie, unless you can give me the accurate size of the ISD, I'd be a little more careful about calling my claim laughable. I already said this is rules wise a much better game than SSB, and that the quality of the FFG miniatures was probably 20 percent better (a subjective claim, I am sure).

20% you say? Hmm... I must admit I have very little experience to compare - I only bought the starter set for SSB back then and all I had was the SSD, Viscount, Nebulon and a bunch of fighters, but if we take quality into account, I would say FFG's would be 50% better - when I look at Viscount's non-existant details and Executor's dorsal superstructure it looks terribad - the cast quality matches the crappy made in china toys and with non-large models another issue was that they were made out of that terrible rubber that bent. Also the paintjob on Executor, Viscount and neb that I own (lost the neb tho) is much, much lower quality than Armada miniatures' in my opinion.

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The pre-orders just went up for Wave 2 on the UK site I use.

 

Home One is the same price as a Victory-class (£26.95. Seems low to me. Especially as the other large ship, the ISD, is £39.95.

 

So it is very much amounts of plastic and size of the box it seems when it comes to the UK.

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What we've come to accept as 'typical' probably isn't a good thing.  Especially those that played 40k, even a new car seems *cheap* in comparison.  haha

 

I feel that the Armada core set is premium priced, for what you get its a biiiiit high.  The individual ships are not as bad, but Armada seems to be pushing to see what the market will bear.  Perhaps they intend to do less waves than X-wing and thus keep it's premium status.  I originally intended to buy 2 core sets, assuming they'd be around $60-$80.  But at around $100, I bought just one and i'll just keep my cash for wave I and II.  

After spending a 1800 on blood angels this game is CHEAP!!!

 

I bought 2 core sets at msrp, a bit silly but this game is so much fun!

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Scottie, unless you can give me the accurate size of the ISD, I'd be a little more careful about calling my claim laughable. I already said this is rules wise a much better game than SSB, and that the quality of the FFG miniatures was probably 20 percent better (a subjective claim, I am sure). But in your post you are claiming that an ISD is going to be 23 to 24 cm in length. That is nearly a foot long. Now THAT IS laughable.

I was also not the one who originally brought up SSB for comparison, but it is the closest comparison. I have a fleet that includes 3 ISDs, an SSD, and about 200 other ships, and I have under 350 in the whole collection, and I bought those before the game completely tanked.

I certainly think that armada is head and shoulders above SSB in every way, including price.

Ok where to start.

First, I said between 21-23cm not 23-24cm. It's not two posts above your own so I'm unsure how you misquoted it. Additionally 23cm is not near a foot, it's 9 inches. There is a substantial difference between 9 inches and a foot.

Secondly, it seems odd that you are entirely ignorant regarding discussions about the ISD dimensions and yet willing to claim it is the same size as the Decimator. You can find deductions of the ISD dimensions in this thread among others.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/138391-isd-base-size/

Third, we know that the Decimator and the VSD are near equal in length and height with the Decimator about a 5th more broad across. We also know from the many images made available from GAMA that the ISD is substantially larger then the VSD, in all dimensions. So how then can the Decimator be as large as the ISD?

Lastly, you seem unaware of the fact that the Decimator retails for 40 not 30 dollars, and yet you feel the ISD which is much larger and comes with more components should cost even less then the Decimator?

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I dont understand this whole argument. . . 

 

Let me ask this, in order to have half a tournament legal X-wing set, how many Core sets would you need? Can you even get that with a single X-Wing Core set? If not how many core sets would it need? 2 in fact. That is $80 and that is not even a the same percentage as Armada's 180ish pts. 

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Prices are what they are, it is up to you to determine if it is worth it on a personal level.  Having said that on a statistical level, prices surely follow a normal distribution as demand will taper off at higher prices.  It is clear from the forum the higher the prices as compared to X-Wing, people are asking is it really worth it.  Personally, I think they were a bit stingy with the dice for the MSRP price and I can tell they basically removed upgrade cards that should belong to the core to "fill up" the expansions. Xwing was very generous overall, and they obviously made great value pricing points for that game which ended up building a massive following.  This in turn caused some people to look at other FF games and buy those- Imperial assault, Armada etc.       

Edited by Amraam01

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This one has gone in some interesting directions. There seems to be a theme running through here of value vs entry level. 

 

On the one hand, the quality of the ships is really fantastic and that's something we got with X-Wing as well. I bought the CR-90 mostly as a decoration piece as it looked fantastic. And that's actually what kept me from picking up Star Trek Attack Wing. The Star Trek ships just look cheaper than the Star Wars ones. 

Then include the general costs involved in miniature wargamming. Compared to say Warhammer 40k, Armada doesn't come close in terms of cost.

 

On the other side, it seems like the pricing, and the nature of the X-Wing game both made it a very attractive and easily accessible miniature game. The box looks pretty, the 3 ships looked great, and at $40 it cost less than a video game. So more people play it and I can pretty easily find a game of X-Wing going on during the week in my town.

But part of me is worried that with the higher initial cost, I may not be able to find many Armada games as easily. While I've spent a ton on X-Wing, it was over time so the cost didn't really register. But with Armada that may be a bit trickier a proposition. 

 

Now I liked Armada and really want to get more ships as they come out. But I'm not getting a second box and I don't think I can talk my friends into investing in it on a whim either (so we'll be using my set when we play). 

 

So I suppose my follow-up question for the thread would be: do you think the price point will be a formidable barrier to entry for average/new players? Now I'm not talking about old wargammers. If you were putting together Ork armies back before 3rd ed. D&D was a thing, then I'm not talking about you. You'd probably not mind the costs in comparison. I'm talking about fresh blood;.a gamer who's never played a wargame before. Someone who's walking around the gaming store between magic/pokemon games and sees the Armada box on the shelf. 

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Scottie, I think we are done here. You said 21 to 23cm, so I used the upper end of your range, your number, not mine. The thread you quoted actually puts it closer to 25.

You are correct that it is likely substantially bigger then the decimator, if you will permit me to estimate without breaking out the graphing calculator, looks like about 5.5 inches on the decimator vs nearly 10" on the VSD. (This is per the thread you quoted, note that no one is certain, but the estimate looks solid at about 10",

Now again, I'm speaking generally here, it's hard to make a direct comparison in size vs price, but the decimator is the closest thing to its size that we have. I would submit that if the deci came to a point like the ISD in the front, it wouldn't be that much smaller than an ISD, but we will see.

The point I was making before the sharpshooting started is that there is a big difference in cost between the deci and an ISD. Now, it's true I quoted a street price for the decimator of 30, which is kind of a standard actual price here in the US. We don't yet know what the degree of discount will be for the ISD.

The OP asked for opinions on whether people thought the game was overpriced or not. I think 50 dollars retail for a single ship is overpriced. I think 100 dollars for the starter set will discourage some people from playing this great game.

That is my opinion, and I used the decimator to try to illustrate the point. I still think it is a valid illustration, but that is all it was supposed to be.

I see no point in continuing to debate this. One final points would make is that the size of the ISD is still not precisely known, though it seems it is likely bigger than the decimator by perhaps 20 percent (in width, the nose of the ISD looks to be a good bit longer)

Have a good night

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If you want to declare the ISD is overpriced I think it is only fair to expect you to know what you are talking about in regards to your justifications. You made a false size comparison with the Decimator without even knowing the size of the ISD. You also compared the discounted price of a Decimator to the MSRP of the ISD, that is a disingenuous comparison.

The price of Armada will certainly turn some people off towards it. However in many cases that reaction is not backed by much of merit.

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Have any of you ever heard of Hawk Wargames? They make a little game called Dropzone Commander. This is a 15mm game that gives you unpainted miniatures.

 

Now why do I bring this up you ask? Because this is an example of HIGH quality miniatures at a small scale (starting to sound familiar) that is not cheap. Here let me link a few things. 

 

Lets start with a Neptune Dropship
http://www.hawkwargames.com/products/neptune-medium-dropship#

 

Next a size comparison to another games miniature:

https://troogrit.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/img_1202-copy.jpg

 

Each Neptune is $16 each and you need oh for a small game around 3-4 of them. Now you might say that $16 is not much but that does not include all the other things such as tanks, rule books, etc. That is several hundreds of dollars to get started in a game that has such high quality in such small miniatures.

 

Now something closer to home in the range of space we have Firestorm Armada which is another small sized miniature game.

 

Here is a link to their Terran models:

http://shop.spartangames.co.uk/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1970

 

Here is a cheaper game for a single box set but lets see what you get. Unpainted models, some super basic bases, no rulebook, OH and you only get the one faction, not to mention you dont get any fancy cardboard though you may get some unit cards but you cant do much with them without the rulebook.

 

That is two very good examples of high end miniature games that are not cheap. So why again are people complaining about prices? I think we are getting an AMAZING deal.

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