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Leafwhistle

Why the Kingsport hate?

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I'll keep this incredibly brief: Why does everyone think that it's common knowledge that Kingsport Horror is the least of the big box expansions? Why is there some guy who won't buy it "out of principle"?

 

Did... did Kingsport kick some puppies?

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Boring board, no unstable locations (very few, if any monsters ever). Rifts duty: encounter at stable location, encounter at stable location... oh, be still my beating heart, the excitement is too much demonio.gif . Oh yeah, and what's with the crap of offering Allies at stable locations??? And not just standard Allies, some of the KH ones are pretty bad-ass. I think Ma's has a shot at an Ally, not sure if any other stable locations do. Ma's with all expansions is 1 in 35, I checked the Harborside encounter cards, they give 1 in 7 shot at an Ally.

Overpowered investigators. Too many. AH, DH and IH all had 1-2 big 'uns (did DH even have one?), but also had their not so great ones.

GOOs are the only aspect of KH I would like (Heralds is so-so, I use Heralds, but don't feel any "must" in getting new ones), even if Atlach-Nacha would probably piss me off in most games gran_risa.gif . Or maybe not, with the current all-in combo (everything but KH), I haven't been getting that many bounces, so sealing him would still be my goal. Guardians? Meh. New monsters? Okay, though the monster cup isn't yet spilling over, it's getting fuller already.

Epic Battle. Final combat "win" is a draw for me. Also, my goal is always to close/seal/special the GOO, why would I want something that kicks in after I have failed to win? On a side note, it's a reason I don't like Norman's (or wouldn't like Lily's) Personal Story, I don't want to have to fail the game first, before it kicks in.

In summary, not worth €50.

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What Investigators of KH are overpowered?

Also, I like the idea of Epic battle cards, because my team gets inclined to plan for the final fight, as if they can handle it. The uncertainty of the Epic Battle cards undermines the feeling that you know what you're getting yourself into.

For example, the best possible strategy against Hastur would be to simply wake him up intentionally before the Terror Level raises and then curb stomping that bud of a plant. With Epic Battle Cards, such things aren't such a sure shot.

I do agree on KH being predictable. Sometimes, it's felt like playing a game of tag. Play Arkham, play arkham... send one or two people over to tag the vital spots of KH... play arkham, play arkham...

 

Hm. And what do the defenders of KH have to say?

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Leafwhistle said:

What Investigators of KH are overpowered?

Daisy and Wendy top the list. Rex the Clue-Machine isn't really on par either. Lily had issues, so she actually had to get an official errata (and there is of course still Martial Arts). Charlie against anything that works with Terror (Hastur, Glaaki or KiY Herald) is an utter nerf and his Ally ability still confuses the hell out people gui%C3%B1o.gif .

Leaving Tony, Luke and Lola as the normal ones (and I would say Luke is good or better). Okay, there might be a "slight" bias in some of them, but especially the first two are horrible.

Leafwhistle said:

Also, I like the idea of Epic battle cards, because my team gets inclined to plan for the final fight, as if they can handle it. The uncertainty of the Epic Battle cards undermines the feeling that you know what you're getting yourself into.

For example, the best possible strategy against Hastur would be to simply wake him up intentionally before the Terror Level raises and then curb stomping that bud of a plant. With Epic Battle Cards, such things aren't such a sure shot.

I don't ever prepare for final combat. So what if I draw Hastur, I'm still going to give close/seal win 100%. Either I win or he wakes up, if he wakes up, I'll do the dice-fest (worst Hastur so far has been at -4). Against Nyarlathotep, I still seal gates with Clues even if Nyarly is 1 doomer away from waking up.

 

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Do you refrain from using those Investigators, then? My friend uses Wendy any chance she gets. We find it a great balance that Wendy can't, you know, withstand musquitos.

Daisy Walker completely changed the way one looks at Magic-inclined investigators by making it possible for one to endlessly stream magic. I can see her as overpowered.

Then again... overpowered aint the worst.

 

"You coming back to bed, Leafwhistle?"

"Yes, Patrice. Be right there..."

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Leafwhistle said:

 

Why does everyone think [...] ?

 

 

Please correct your "everyone" into a "everyone but some", because I'm one of the "some", and I love Kingsport, and I gave my opinion about it a few times on this forum, my pseudo-and-lame-"theory" about the "flavor" of it, its poetric aspect and all, and all. I love Kingsport. Said. Now, I'll leave you with Dam, please, don't try to last too long on your Patience Check, you'll loose eventually ;)

Hey Dam, what's up ? Still spitting on the house in the mist ? ;) I played Cosmic and Galactica more than AH these weeks, that's why I barely talk here, but I still read your stuff and Tibbs and dj02 and everybody's ! Last one we failed against Shudde mell, I still felt frustrated about that one. It's lame to let him beat you, I think.

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Fair enough. Will be more careful with wordings in the future. My group and I love Kingsport as well, aside from the aforementioned game of Tag. It's kind of fun to decide if we would rather allocate our resources to preventing a fire or putting it out, a la the Rifts.

Anyway, carry on.

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I dunno.. I only play Arkham with my close cirlce of firends and have never really gotten opinions from other people I know. me and my firend all just kind of agree that with Dunwhich and Innsmouth you feel more involved and there are more reasons to go to those town unlike Kingsport. I haveplayd a few games with Kingsport where none of us even went to the town. And the rifts are just too hard ot keep track of and most of the time we will go through like 5 rounds before we remmeber to use them. I dunno.. I don't  hate it but It is def. my least favorite. 

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I don't have Kingsport and I've no intention of getting it. In terms of reasoning, the things outlined by Dam sum a lot of it up...

But there's also a few things about  what the expansion offers that strike me as kinda corny. I like the concept of Wendy, but it just seems foolish to have her drinking whiskey and buying guns from a shop. Some of the allies on offer are kinda wack (how does having a cat around make you better at fighting?!). As the expansions go, the Kingsport items and spells interest me the least. The Guardians significantly undermine the whole "God Hates You" feel which I love about the setting.

The 8 Ancient Ones it offers are very cool, but, with the 20 I have already, I don't have a burning need for them.

I love the look of the epic battle mechanic and how it brings more story to what's possibly the least 'storyful' part of the game. Also, I tend to only use the themed skills (i.e. Fisticuffs and Grapple as opposed to Luck and Will) in my deck so I would actually like the new ones Kingsport has to offer.

So weighing out the pros and cons with the price, I find I can do without Kingsport. However, if Innsmouth hadn't been released when it had been, I would have been all over Kingsport.

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Hem said:

Hey Dam, what's up ? Still spitting on the house in the mist ? ;)

Just got Middle-Earth Quest yesterday, so AH is on a break for now. Completed my 3rd rotation of the IH GOOs over the weekend with my friend (sealed Zhar in 13 Mythos cards; "stupid" 2 Elder Signs made the game too easy). Still 104 games left on the schedule gran_risa.gif . Speaking of Zhar, that's 3 games and over 30 gate openings, 0 doubles rolled sorpresa.gif . What are the odds of doubles anyway, 1 in 6?

Mylo, KH adds 4 GOOs.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention regarding the Epic Battle cards, unless you use house rules, half the deck is pointless, as you very rarely go 9+ rounds of combat, so you don't really see the Red cards.

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Mylo,

Read dreamquest of Unknown Kaddath or The Cats of Uthar for an explanation of the +1 fight that Foolishness gets you. Unkown Kaddath also explains why you can't have Young Zoog and Foolishness at the same time.

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@ Dam: sorry, my bad... Brings home my "point" all the more, though

@ Nightflame: Fair enough, I certainly won't complain about Lovecraftian faithfulness in the game... Just means I got a whole lot more reading to .

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In many ways, the expansions to Arkham Horror are like cooking ingrediants.  Some mix better with others, and depending on what you throw in, you'll have different flavor, it all depends on what you are aiming for.  Some don't like the taste of Kingsport.  I do.  The reasons for the dislike have been articulated by others, so instead, I'll say why I like it.  First, Epic Battle cards and Sinister Plots, way cool.  Being on the verge of success in beating Cthulu, and then having him open his maw and eat you all?  Awesome.  It keeps the Final battle from being so predictable, and can offer weak final battle GOOs a chance, such as Yig.  Secondly, it forces triage, knowing you can only deal with so much.  So the Dunwich Horror is about to awaken, Devil's Reef is open and spewing monsters into rifts, and the rift tracks in Kingsport are about to open.  O yeah, it would also be nice to close and seal gates, while dealing with that nasty rumor. So, what do you deal with?  We often get games where everything is falling apart around us, and we need to be very careful and wise in choosing what to deal with.  Disaster coming at you from all sides?  That's Fun!  Successfully navigating the one clear path to victory, where a single mistep would have led to your doom and the end of the world?  That's Awesome!

Also, I like the investigators.  Sure, some are powerful, but the GOOs in Kingsport are no pushovers, and I don't want to bring a knife in armored warfare.  Wendy, one of my favorites, is great, but with the inability to deal with much more than a cultist, and difficulty sealing some of the tougher gates because of  low fight and lore, forces you to play differently.  I find that's true with a lot of Kingsport.  You have to play differently with Luke, or versus my good buddy Atalachy, so you grow in your ability as a player. 

Now I know it can be frustrating, being on rift duty in Kingsport.  I think, though, this can reflect on the players and their mindset.  If you are out for individual glory, doing rifts is annoying and boring.  But if you are out for the team, looking on it as a cooperative game as it is, then you know you are contributing, filling a needed purpose.  No, the glory isn't yours.  The glory is having a world to live in when it's all over.

So Kingsport doesn't suit everyone.  Some like to throw everything in the pot but Kingsport, and play that way.  To me, as in cooking, this makes for a bad taste.  It makes the game too easy, too focused on Arkham.  Kingsport will always be a factor, no matter what expansion the next mythos card is.  Dunwich and Innsmouth won't be, if you don't draw cards from their particular set, as nothing will happen in them. 

Kingsport does make things more difficult, but it also gives you the tools to deal with them, if you use them wisely.  Many a time Bain has been critical to success, knocking off a critical doom token to allow us more time to thwart the GOO.  Powerful ability, yes, but Arkham Horror doesn't pull any punches, so it can't expect me to either.

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Renderfalls said:

Now I know it can be frustrating, being on rift duty in Kingsport.  I think, though, this can reflect on the players and their mindset.  If you are out for individual glory, doing rifts is annoying and boring.  But if you are out for the team, looking on it as a cooperative game as it is, then you know you are contributing, filling a needed purpose.  No, the glory isn't yours.  The glory is having a world to live in when it's all over.

 

For me the bottom line is the win. I'm all for the team effort, if my friend draw "Join the Winning Team" and has a decent shot at completing it, I'll help what I can (buy Dhol Chants, clear paths). But while going for the win, I want to do something worthwhile, taking the umpteenth encounter at a stable location is not it in my book.

Renderfalls said:

So Kingsport doesn't suit everyone.  Some like to throw everything in the pot but Kingsport, and play that way.  To me, as in cooking, this makes for a bad taste.  It makes the game too easy, too focused on Arkham.  Kingsport will always be a factor, no matter what expansion the next mythos card is.  Dunwich and Innsmouth won't be, if you don't draw cards from their particular set, as nothing will happen in them. 

 

So Kingsport = Rifts? Because it's the Rifts that are keyed to Mythos cards. Town itself has very little to offer.

Renderfalls said:

Kingsport does make things more difficult, but it also gives you the tools to deal with them, if you use them wisely.  Many a time Bain has been critical to success, knocking off a critical doom token to allow us more time to thwart the GOO.  Powerful ability, yes, but Arkham Horror doesn't pull any punches, so it can't expect me to either.

 

If getting Bain meant you actually had to go to a spot where you could draw "a gate and a monster appears", the risk-reward factor might be okay. But KH is 100% stable, so risk-reward factor is hugely tilted toward the reward side with KH allies. Prof. Rice is available at Wizard's Hill. Seriously, that place is nasty, I'm not going there, not even for Prof. Rice, at least not until I've sealed that location. Okay, so maybe with Darrell + Dragon's Eye gran_risa.gif .

Eltdown Shards is another peeve of mine. $5 to remove a doomer? WTF??? If Ashcan Pete is in the game (or you get the Mask which duplicates Pete), look out GOO, your doomers are dead. Dunwich gave us a Mission where you had to sacrifice 2 Stamina at 3 locations for the same effect. At least that Mission meant you had to go and put some effort into removing the doomer.

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I do see what you're saying Dam, however, after playing several games with Kingsport Horror, I feel that it does add tremendous difficulty to the game, if you're a player that is willing to try to prevent the rifts from actually opening.

I suppose in some ways it can be ignored.  The rift progression tracks are dependent on the monster movement, and there can be many times when nothing gets added because that track is full.  That is a bit flawed in my opinion.  However, devoting an investigator to Kingsport, where, yes, the reward factor is high, basically turns a 4 investigator team into a 3 investigator team for the rest of the boards.  And while they've added rules to help balance that with the addition of multiple boards, it still makes things much more difficult.  We often have to send one of the more useless characters in the group (Jenny) there for awhile to deal with rifts, and if the character is lucky enough to pick up some clues or allies, then we can switch them out for one of the more disabled characters later in the game.  Of course, with the rule of 11 allies, and if you're playing with all sets, there's probably a

Of course, a lot of people just ignore the rifts.  I suppose that's fine.  I suppose some people find the prevention of rift opening to be less beneficial than trying to close and seal gates.  Honestly, I don't want to see a rift open and see it start adding doom tokens to the track...  If a rift opens in our games, it's usually because we're having such horrible luck anyway that we haven't had time to deal with anything in Kingsport.

I think things might have been more thought out with the expansion, but I don't think you should discount it just because there are stable locations only.  Yes, it's relatively safe to be there, but it isn't necessarily safer for the rest of the team for one of the characters to be there for awhile.

Now for the item thing.  I feel like saying that one item really is helpful with this one investigator is a bit silly.  Ashcan Pete can regenerate a lot of ridiculously useful items.  I think that the certain item/investigator saying is true for a lot of items/spells in the game.  I mean we all know about the Kate/Arcane Insight problem, and we've had it happen in our games, and yes it makes it much easier for the rest of the game, but that doesn't mean if that situation comes up in the game, I shouldn't take advantage of it.  There are probably some overpowered investigators in Kingsport, and obviously Daisy is the most overpowered, but I think they kind of realized that with some of the ridiculously overpowered Ancient Ones, you might need some investigators that can help against them.

I play the game to have fun, and I think Kingsport really does add a bit of fun and flavor to the game by ramping up the difficulty a bit.  Maybe it's not as much as some people would like, but I think it's enough to really change the strategy of the normal "collect clues/seal gates/rinse and repeat" cycle that is common in games without it.

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johnwatersfan said:

Now for the item thing.  I feel like saying that one item really is helpful with this one investigator is a bit silly.  Ashcan Pete can regenerate a lot of ridiculously useful items.  I think that the certain item/investigator saying is true for a lot of items/spells in the game.  I mean we all know about the Kate/Arcane Insight problem, and we've had it happen in our games, and yes it makes it much easier for the rest of the game, but that doesn't mean if that situation comes up in the game, I shouldn't take advantage of it. 

Well, IH sure fixed Kate good, didn't it gui%C3%B1o.gif ? I've actually gotten Kate + AI once in my games (48 since adding IH) and that was the most boring game ever. Now that I'm using IH, that combo won't get exploited as much, unless one wants to wake up the GOO. If I wasn't using IH, I would really, really hope I never ever got that combo again. Kate + AI pretty much equals gg, re-set with new GOO and new investigators.

johnwatersfan said:

There are probably some overpowered investigators in Kingsport, and obviously Daisy is the most overpowered, but I think they kind of realized that with some of the ridiculously overpowered Ancient Ones, you might need some investigators that can help against them.

I think using plural on GOOs is a bit much, only Atlast Nachos partido_risa.gif is really hard, rest seem pretty much on par with GOOs from other sets. With DH + IH boards in play, Yibb-Tstll probably goes up a peg or two, of course, if that Y'ha Mythos that removes all Clues from the board hits the turn before Yibb wakes up...

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Well... I'm going to take a very different approach than Dam here to try to answer this question.

 

I don't have any Kingsport Hate, per se...  Yet, it remains the only big box expansion I don't currently own, and it's a toss up between kingsport and BGotW which one interests me less.   I doubt I'll get either of them.

 

It's not that Kingsport sucks, IMO, although Dam might tell you different.....   it's just that Dunwich and Innsmouth are so good.  Let's start with Innsmouth.    Innsmouth is the best expansion to A-H, period, end of story.   There is no doubt in my mind.   If I was stranded on a desert island with nothing but AH and a guy saying "pick one expansion to play for the rest of eternity!!"  -it would be Innsmouth.  The DOR track is a great mechanic, locations are nasty and cool at the same time,  heralds are great,  AO's are great,  personal stories are the best thing since sliced bread (sliced bread being invented in 1928) and out of a whopping 16 new investigators all of them are interesting and totally playable, and only 1 is overpowered.   IH is da bombz.

 

As far as Dunwich goes.   Dunwich is a great expansion to use alone.   It even works great with a small-box expansion mixed in.   Or play with more expansions but use only Dunwich Mythos cards.  The mechanics of Dunwich are actually quite good,  it just seems to break down when you add too many other expansions, the well-known problem of Dunwich dillution.    IMO, this is easily fixable and not really a problem.   And you really have to forgive the game designers for the oversight,  at that point, I doubt they knew that AH would be so enormously popular and that they'd come out with 5 more expansions.   The Dunwich Horror printout herald is also quite good and adds lots of challenge to Dunwich for experienced players.  DH remains one of my favorite heralds because it's just cool to be like "aw crap guys... we just woke up the Herald...   Someone needs to go and kill him.."   And you can!   You can't actually go kill any other herald,  and it's just fun if you manage to suceed, and earns the player many congratulations from around the table.   I like all the DH investigators quite a  bit, the AOs are good, and the items are generally pretty nifty.   Finally, Injury/madness is an indispensible part of the game that greatly speeds up rate of play.   It's bad enough that your character dies,  who wants to spend another turn buying back your sanity/stamina?  Nobody.   It adds salt in the wound.   Better to take an injury/madness and keep on truckin.  And the terrible times when you get a broken hand, a back injury that makes you discard half your stuff, or Amnesia... or Claustrophobia on Darell Simmons, more than make up for the advantage that you get, if there is one.   It's a well balanced mechanic that makes the game more fun.

 

On to kingsport.   I know people love epic battle,  but I dont think I would.  At least I'm sure I could deal without it.  And I have to disagree with Dam here,   beating an AO in final combat is most definitely a win, and not a draw.    AOs like Yig or Nyarlathotep are balanced just fine.   Sure, it's true they aren't too terribly tough to defeat in final combat, but they also have the fastest doom tracks, so there is less time to seal gates or prepare.  In some respects Hastur is a problem, but if people are really going to have fun by letting Hastur wake up as fast as possible and then stomping him.... then I say go for it.  Personally, I always try to seal, but if it gets to that point in the game where it looks like all is lost....  I will absolutely spend my last turn or two getting a blessing, a weapon, sanity back, or otherwise gearing up for final combat.   I don't think that is underhanded at all.  Anyway, the point was that I dont thing AOs like Yig etc need a boost,  they're fine as they are.  Some AOs simply have tougher final combats that others.  It's ok.  Rifts fail to excite me, and since I have IH, I don't need the AOs or investigators.   All in all,  Kingsport simply doesnt have anything that feels "must-have" for me, like DH and IH do.

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Probably the biggest complaints are that many of the investigators are overpowered compared to others (Wendy and Daisy, for example) and that the extra board isn't as exciting as the others. Using the Kingsport board sometimes boils down to having one or two investigators on "rift duty", which involves having encounters which are sometimes very generous but often merely result in being delayed. Also, the House in the Mist is very time-consuming to get to, and being Changed isn't really worth the effort.

That said, Kingsport does add a lot of value, in my mind. The monsters and AOs are tough, and there are some very nasty mythos cards as well. Epic Battle is a lot of fun and we use it standard, since so many AOs (especially base game) are a cakewalk without it.

I don't think Kingsport is necessarily bad, per se. I do think that it's the least good big box expansion, if I had to rate them. Still, I would probably recommend it to be purchased before Innsmouth, since the difficulty jump isn't quite as high, and it adds more investigator cards as well as Epic Battle.

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I like kingsport for a couple reasons.

1. If you don't watch the Rifts then it adds more monsters to the board, In general my games seem to be light on monsters without it (Probably because there is one more investigator out killing monsters instead of tending rifts) and my group tends to like the monster heavy games.

2. I have quite a few new players (someone always brings a friend or two and my Arkham gaming group is growing at a fantastic rate!) and its a fairly safe place for new investigators to get their feet wet, maybe pick up a good item or two on an encounter then come back to arkham well equipped to kick monster butt. but its nice to have a fairly safe place to wander around when you need a break.

3. I'm going to be captain of the white ship someday, i swear!

4. I don't really worry about the Overly powerful characters that much. We chose randomly and if you get a good char, great, someone else will have a weak one. Life's not fair and not all investigators are balanced. But i've had worse chars do incredible things with the right bit of luck.

5. the Final battle cards really do spice up the battle against the AO

Publish

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awp832 said:

And I have to disagree with Dam here,   beating an AO in final combat is most definitely a win, and not a draw.    AOs like Yig or Nyarlathotep are balanced just fine.   Sure, it's true they aren't too terribly tough to defeat in final combat, but they also have the fastest doom tracks, so there is less time to seal gates or prepare.  In some respects Hastur is a problem, but if people are really going to have fun by letting Hastur wake up as fast as possible and then stomping him.... then I say go for it.  Personally, I always try to seal, but if it gets to that point in the game where it looks like all is lost....  I will absolutely spend my last turn or two getting a blessing, a weapon, sanity back, or otherwise gearing up for final combat.   I don't think that is underhanded at all.  Anyway, the point was that I dont thing AOs like Yig etc need a boost,  they're fine as they are.  Some AOs simply have tougher final combats that others.  It's ok.

Man, you gear up AND count final combat as win? Can you make things any easier gui%C3%B1o.gif ?

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I'm just saying there will be very little challenge left in the game. I'm above .500 in final combat without ever gearing up. Okay, so a few have been very close calls, but even 50-50 without gearing doesn't really speak of difficulties (4-investigator games for me, stats show 1-3 investigator final combats are even easier).

From base game, Azzy of course doesn't care about gearing up, but he's an utter pansy as is, so doesn't matter. Only Cthulhu will be so-so after gearing up, everything else you should easily beat. From DH, Tsathoggua is nasty, everything else gets wasted easy. From KH, gearing doesn't really help against Eihort if you keep rolling 1s, and A-N might be a problem. From IH, Quachil Uttaus is a *****, everything else goes down.

So you have max 5-6 GOOs out of 20 that you can possibly lose to. If you draw any of the others, just GG, call it a win and re-set for another game.

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Leafwhistle said:

I'll keep this incredibly brief: Why does everyone think that it's common knowledge that Kingsport Horror is the least of the big box expansions? Why is there some guy who won't buy it "out of principle"?

 

Did... did Kingsport kick some puppies?

Played once with it (last AH game i partook in) and i rather liked it myself.

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