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DScipio

Custom card/ship yard: Star Trek (Armada)

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Are these meant to only play with Star Wars ships, or only on their own?  Because by points there are some of these I would fly swarms of long before I played SW ships.

I love the way you've done most of these upgrades.  Very thematic, very intriguing, nicely different from existing Armada upgrades.  Cloak idea is great too.  I second the call for all fed fighters to be rogue, though maybe the Peregrines should be a flotilla to represent a squadron (perhaps with attack dice dependent on hull strength), and a heavy fighter to represent one.


I've always thought for ST that the arcs would have to be very different, particularly for Fed, Rom, and Cardi ships.

For Fed ships with saucers just one large 315 degree front arc with a lot of dice wherein the phaser dice can be split up however the player wants into up to three shots, including at fighters, then a narrow rear arc with some hard hitting torps.  

For Romulan ships I would say three arcs.  Two front-side arcs split down the beam of the ship going back to the 130degree rear arc.  This would give her a very, very powerful beam shot, but harder to pull off, and a wider weak rear arc.

Klingons look pretty good as is. short range, strong front arc dice, good maneuverability on the little ships.  Older big ships should be bathtubs that hit like bricks, proverbial glass cannons (maybe MC75 defense tokens).  K'Vort class should be a good mix of the two, like a medium sized, slightly up-hulled MC30 but with front rear really strong.  Negh'Var should be an ISD+ in front, with lower engineering, better upgrades.  Maybe make a title upgrade that can be used on any Klingon ship that says: "While you have two targets that you could roll attack dice against, if you choose to only attack one, you may exhaust another copy of this card on a friendly ship to add 2 dice to your attack pool" for 5 points.

Cardassians should be pretty much 180 degrees on their big ships in front.  Maybe make it so they can only attack one ship from their front arc.

Lastly, I think a combination of Armada and Legion vehicle movements would work great.  Armada tool, but fits into bases and does maneuvering like Legion.  Make the bases smaller than SW Armada and round (if possible).

 

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On 6/27/2018 at 5:00 AM, Admiral Theia said:

Are these meant to only play with Star Wars ships, or only on their own?  Because by points there are some of these I would fly swarms of long before I played SW ships.

I love the way you've done most of these upgrades.  Very thematic, very intriguing, nicely different from existing Armada upgrades.  Cloak idea is great too.  I second the call for all fed fighters to be rogue, though maybe the Peregrines should be a flotilla to represent a squadron (perhaps with attack dice dependent on hull strength), and a heavy fighter to represent one.


I've always thought for ST that the arcs would have to be very different, particularly for Fed, Rom, and Cardi ships.

For Fed ships with saucers just one large 315 degree front arc with a lot of dice wherein the phaser dice can be split up however the player wants into up to three shots, including at fighters, then a narrow rear arc with some hard hitting torps.  

For Romulan ships I would say three arcs.  Two front-side arcs split down the beam of the ship going back to the 130degree rear arc.  This would give her a very, very powerful beam shot, but harder to pull off, and a wider weak rear arc.

Klingons look pretty good as is. short range, strong front arc dice, good maneuverability on the little ships.  Older big ships should be bathtubs that hit like bricks, proverbial glass cannons (maybe MC75 defense tokens).  K'Vort class should be a good mix of the two, like a medium sized, slightly up-hulled MC30 but with front rear really strong.  Negh'Var should be an ISD+ in front, with lower engineering, better upgrades.  Maybe make a title upgrade that can be used on any Klingon ship that says: "While you have two targets that you could roll attack dice against, if you choose to only attack one, you may exhaust another copy of this card on a friendly ship to add 2 dice to your attack pool" for 5 points.

Cardassians should be pretty much 180 degrees on their big ships in front.  Maybe make it so they can only attack one ship from their front arc.

Lastly, I think a combination of Armada and Legion vehicle movements would work great.  Armada tool, but fits into bases and does maneuvering like Legion.  Make the bases smaller than SW Armada and round (if possible).

 

Thanks for the feedback. They are meant to be crossover compatible. Which ships do you think are too cheap? I aimed for higher point costs, but I did npot employ any of the formulas the community created. I compared them with the offical Armada ships.

Right now I am working on an overview chart.

 

The Arcs are a concern. As you might have see I had some special rules at first for trek ships, but I abandoned the idea to keep it simple and easy accessible. 

Right now I am quite pleased with the 4 arcs system: While the Phasers on most fed ships have a huge fire (front-side) fire arc, the torpedos do not. So a fed ship will be able to use its phasers (4 blue for example, on front and side arcs, but torpedos only in the front arc (and most in the rear). This system is similiar to the original arc system: A ISD for example has only a strong front arc because he can combine the turbolasers that are actually on the side of the ISD in the front arc.

 

I like the idea of three arcs for romulan ships. Sadly its ifficult to implete.

 

 

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Mostly it's in the Feds and Klingons.  I can take 6 Sovereigns in one fleet, which throws more dice (unless I throw two front arc shots from all three Cymoons) and has only 3 fewer hull than my triple Cymoon fleet.  I can take 12 Constitutions, naked, or, ****, 12 crossfields with a spore drive (which should really just be the Discovery title instead of another type of upgrade) and Stamits on my flagship with Cracken or Madine.  I'd take that fleet every day.

7 K'vorts with Martok and  few cheap ordnance upgrades, cloak three turns while at speed three, then decloak and unload a ton of black dice on two ships.

The other races are better balanced for points and upgrades though.  If anything, some of them are a bit undercosted, like you swung the other way a bit.

Yeah, hull values are low, but shields are strong and maneuverability is off the chain for a lot of these ships.  I'd say many of them need fewer upgrade slots, or more points (with perhaps a concurrent increase in AA dice for fed ships).

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The feds you see were the first created, their points are not up-to-date. I will revise them soon, including the first playtest results.

crossfield class: We know only two ships (+mirror) for that class and both have a spore drive installed, so I thought it shouldnt be limited to the U.S.S. Discovery.

And Cracken and Madine as "Rebels" are not available on "Federation" ships.

 I agree the K`´ Vort might be to cheap. Quick comparison:

                              Mc30 Scout:                                   K ´´´Vort:
Main Arc:             2+3 (sides)                                     2+3 (front)
Sec. Arc:              1+2 (front)                                      1 (sides)

3rd Arc:               1+1 (rear)                                        2 (rear)

Hulls + shields:  4 +11                                                5 + 6
Defense:            2+2                                                    1+1+1

Upgrade Slots: 4                                                         5 + cloak
command:         2/1/3                                                 1/0/2
Speed:                4                                                         3

Points:                69                                                        54   

Do you think some ships have t much  maneuverability ? If yes which ones?

I was think about removing most Anti-Squadron dice from Trek ships and instead make some cheap upgrades to make a powerful or accurate attack on a single squadron possible (instead of the "Flak" approach of Star Wars).                          

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2 hours ago, DScipio said:

The feds you see were the first created, their points are not up-to-date. I will revise them soon, including the first playtest results.

crossfield class: We know only two ships (+mirror) for that class and both have a spore drive installed, so I thought it shouldnt be limited to the U.S.S. Discovery.

And Cracken and Madine as "Rebels" are not available on "Federation" ships.

 I agree the K`´ Vort might be to cheap. Quick comparison:

                              Mc30 Scout:                                   K ´´´Vort:
Main Arc:             2+3 (sides)                                     2+3 (front)
Sec. Arc:              1+2 (front)                                      1 (sides)

3rd Arc:               1+1 (rear)                                        2 (rear)

Hulls + shields:  4 +11                                                5 + 6
Defense:            2+2                                                    1+1+1

Upgrade Slots: 4                                                         5 + cloak
command:         2/1/3                                                 1/0/2
Speed:                4                                                         3

Points:                69                                                        54   

Do you think some ships have t much  maneuverability ? If yes which ones?

I was think about removing most Anti-Squadron dice from Trek ships and instead make some cheap upgrades to make a powerful or accurate attack on a single squadron possible (instead of the "Flak" approach of Star Wars).                          

I don't actually think they have too much, because Trek ships are very maneuverable for their sizes, particularly smaller attack ships, and even the medium (by Trek standards) and big ships.  They fly almost like fighters (****, I wouldn't mind seeing the smallest birds of prey as oversized fighters or combat flotillas, since they aren't ever really used to take and hold a battlefield).  I mean, Riker flies the E with a joystick for fracks sake.

I think if you up the flack, particular for fed ships (make their "fighters" flotillas, and give the other races true fighters), you can keep their maneuverability but make each ship 10-20 points higher.  My justification regarding fighters, on top of the Voyager episode someone shared a clip of, is this (at 0:16) :

 

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23 hours ago, DScipio said:


crossfield class: We know only two ships (+mirror) for that class and both have a spore drive installed, so I thought it shouldnt be limited to the U.S.S. Discovery.
           

Yeah, but the other one blows itself up trying too hard, making the spore drive unique.  The ship was built around the drive, so maybe just give the ship spore drives built in and make it unique.  Or make the spore drive double unique (two only).  Oh, and ten points, minimum.  I might even say 15.  That thing is ridiculously powerful, it seems on paper.  Could be wrong though.

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On 6/30/2018 at 2:33 AM, Admiral Theia said:

I don't actually think they have too much, because Trek ships are very maneuverable for their sizes, particularly smaller attack ships, and even the medium (by Trek standards) and big ships.  They fly almost like fighters (****, I wouldn't mind seeing the smallest birds of prey as oversized fighters or combat flotillas, since they aren't ever really used to take and hold a battlefield).  I mean, Riker flies the E with a joystick for fracks sake.

I think if you up the flack, particular for fed ships (make their "fighters" flotillas, and give the other races true fighters), you can keep their maneuverability but make each ship 10-20 points higher.  My justification regarding fighters, on top of the Voyager episode someone shared a clip of, is this (at 0:16) :

 

Yeah, they seem more maneuverable than Star Wars ships, which is a good tool to balance the smaller Trek ships in a crossover enviroment. I reviewd every Trek Battle Scene before making the cards and I noticed, that I remembered the Trek ships to be more maneuverable than they were actually shown in the shows/movies. B``  Rel Class, Jem-Hadar Raiders, Hideki and the Defiant class are meant to be flotillas.

When you review that Voyager scene in which they were under fighter attack, you can notice that they excel at precise destruction of fighters, but struggle against a lot of it. The Voyager was under attack by a single squadron fo fighters and nearly every shot (irc) was a hit, but they were under pressure by the fighters because they could not destroy them fast enough. That why I thought to remove Anti-Squadron dice all together and let the trek ships have powerful attacks against a single squadron.

 

On 6/30/2018 at 11:04 PM, Admiral Theia said:

Yeah, but the other one blows itself up trying too hard, making the spore drive unique.  The ship was built around the drive, so maybe just give the ship spore drives built in and make it unique.  Or make the spore drive double unique (two only).  Oh, and ten points, minimum.  I might even say 15.  That thing is ridiculously powerful, it seems on paper.  Could be wrong though.

Indeed, I thought about making it a bit more powerful but riskier to use than the Discovery. Unquie 2 is  good idea. While the relocation possibility is very powerful, the Crossfield class is not. Its not armed very powerful and is bad at changing the heading, something the spore drives doesnt help with. But I will playtest them soon. I guess 15 points seems more reasonable.

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4 minutes ago, DScipio said:

Yeah, they seem more maneuverable than Star Wars ships, which is a good tool to balance the smaller Trek ships in a crossover enviroment. I reviewd every Trek Battle Scene before making the cards and I noticed, that I remembered the Trek ships to be more maneuverable than they were actually shown in the shows/movies. B``  Rel Class, Jem-Hadar Raiders, Hideki and the Defiant class are meant to be flotillas.

When you review that Voyager scene in which they were under fighter attack, you can notice that they excel at precise destruction of fighters, but struggle against a lot of it. The Voyager was under attack by a single squadron fo fighters and nearly every shot (irc) was a hit, but they were under pressure by the fighters because they could not destroy them fast enough. That why I thought to remove Anti-Squadron dice all together and let the trek ships have powerful attacks against a single squadron.

 

Indeed, I thought about making it a bit more powerful but riskier to use than the Discovery. Unquie 2 is  good idea. While the relocation possibility is very powerful, the Crossfield class is not. Its not armed very powerful and is bad at changing the heading, something the spore drives doesnt help with. But I will playtest them soon. I guess 15 points seems more reasonable.

Awesome about them being flotillas.

But the scene wherein the Ent-D takes out 6 or seven in about two seconds is my main reference.  And we see those Type X arrays be very, very accurate fairly often.  They target single rooms deep down inside of a ship or facility, break open underground caves without hurting the people inside them.  ST computers, I think, are much more sophisticated and faster than SW, at least the way they are portrayed.  When I compare the universes I compare effects, rather than any made up stats in "tech manuals" or whatever.  What do we see the weapons and devices doing on screen.

In fact, I think there is a lot of room for uniqueness here.  Ships could have a "deflector dish" slot, a "transporter" slot (kind of like a boarding team/ally assist Fleet Support slot), slots for the different types of weapons (phasers, photons, disruptors, quantums, plasma torps, drones/missiles) so you can tailor the upgrades to the races/fleets.  I know that would be a lot, but some of the existing upgrades in Armada would fit some of those slots.  Maybe (maybe not, just musing) make these ships quicker, more maneuverable, and better against star fighters, but remove red dice completely except for drones (should you choose to do Kazinti).  Have phasers and Breen energy dampners be super accurate blue dice, most everything else be black, with most of the differentiation coming from upgrade cards.  You could even separate disruptor cannons from disruptor beams if you want to give some more variation between romulans/cardies and Klingon birds-of-prey/Defiant class ships. 

The Spore Drive card doesn't indicate you can't change your heading.  By standard Armada rules "placing" a ship means you choose the orientation.  Dropping that sucker in anyone's rear arc is a **** of a thing, especially if you are last-firsting and have Stamits.  You just stay in their rear the entire game, or jump away as soon as there is trouble.  My first thought when I saw the spore drive was that the ship would have to be small base, because "on the token" gives a lot of lattitude, basically a circle with a range one+ radius, and the ship can be anywhere inside that, facing any direction.

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23 hours ago, Admiral Theia said:

Awesome about them being flotillas.

But the scene wherein the Ent-D takes out 6 or seven in about two seconds is my main reference.  And we see those Type X arrays be very, very accurate fairly often.  They target single rooms deep down inside of a ship or facility, break open underground caves without hurting the people inside them.  ST computers, I think, are much more sophisticated and faster than SW, at least the way they are portrayed.  When I compare the universes I compare effects, rather than any made up stats in "tech manuals" or whatever.  What do we see the weapons and devices doing on screen.

In fact, I think there is a lot of room for uniqueness here.  Ships could have a "deflector dish" slot, a "transporter" slot (kind of like a boarding team/ally assist Fleet Support slot), slots for the different types of weapons (phasers, photons, disruptors, quantums, plasma torps, drones/missiles) so you can tailor the upgrades to the races/fleets.  I know that would be a lot, but some of the existing upgrades in Armada would fit some of those slots.  Maybe (maybe not, just musing) make these ships quicker, more maneuverable, and better against star fighters, but remove red dice completely except for drones (should you choose to do Kazinti).  Have phasers and Breen energy dampners be super accurate blue dice, most everything else be black, with most of the differentiation coming from upgrade cards.  You could even separate disruptor cannons from disruptor beams if you want to give some more variation between romulans/cardies and Klingon birds-of-prey/Defiant class ships. 

The Spore Drive card doesn't indicate you can't change your heading.  By standard Armada rules "placing" a ship means you choose the orientation.  Dropping that sucker in anyone's rear arc is a **** of a thing, especially if you are last-firsting and have Stamits.  You just stay in their rear the entire game, or jump away as soon as there is trouble.  My first thought when I saw the spore drive was that the ship would have to be small base, because "on the token" gives a lot of lattitude, basically a circle with a range one+ radius, and the ship can be anywhere inside that, facing any direction.

You mean 0:22 of the video. Thats excatly what I had in mind with the "upgrade approach", something like this:
7024h.jpg not sure it should be a Icon Upgrade IonCannons (Phasers),Icon Upgrade OffensiveRetrofit ,Icon Upgrade DefensiveRetrofitor the (new) Science upgrade slot...

I totally agree that Trek weapons and phasers espaccally are different to Turbolasers, that they are less powerful but mostly much more accurate and that "Computer" technology seem to be more advanced in Trek compared to Trek:
image.png.ee97fffe05140b05858eedf0103a7972.png
Bildergebnis für Bridge Star DestroyerBildergebnis für millennium falcon bridge

image.jpeg.94beeee9609982ea351dd668be103cd4.jpeg

Bildergebnis für Bridge Discovery

Bildergebnis für enterprise bridge

When starting I had a lot more upgrade slots in mind. Science, Morale, Transporter and more were included. I began to roll them back into the other categories, because they begand to clutter the cards and need to much explanation. So far only "Cloak" and "Science / Computer / Electronics" and recently "Cargo" (more a fun aspect) prevailed.

I plan to DO all that nasty shield / Deflector / Transporter tech for all the factions, however right now I think its easier for the user/player and me to put them in the existing upgrade slots + 2,5. 

So far I am using the weapon upgrade slots more or less this way:

Icon Upgrade Ordnance - Advanced Torpedos (red die)

Icon Upgrade IonCannons - Phasers and other accurate beam weapons (blue die)
Icon Upgrade Turbolasers - Disruptors and other "damage before accuracy" beam weapons and less advanced Torpedos and ordonance (black die).

22 hours ago, Shadow345 said:

Anyone done the Federation powerhouses of Future Enterprise or USS Vengeance?

Not yet. ^_^

Edited by DScipio

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I dunno. It feels like they’re particularly vulnerable to fighters.  I like the idea of making ST ships have to decide to trade their main attack for hitting fighters, but just one at a time feels too lite.  In DS9 “Sacrifice of Angels” showed us that fighters not backed up closely by big ships to take the heat died hard and fast.

 

speaking of that episode, a fleet action version for both universes would be a great deal of fun too.

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On 7/12/2018 at 11:19 PM, NebulonB said:

I do so wish it would be Star Trek Armada.

You‘d be a fantastic designer ?

At least I know now how time consuming it is, more than I tought.

6 hours ago, Captain Ordo N-11 said:

I've got a friend that wants to play star trek ships, are these at least somewhat balanced? Being a noob myself I'm not sure one way or the other. 

I tried to make the stats balanced. Most federation ships have to be readjusted though. Everything saw very little playtesting yet. So in fact it would be great if you try them out and give me feedback!

 

Edited by DScipio

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5 hours ago, DScipio said:

I tried to make the stats balanced. Most federation ships have to be readjusted though. Everything saw very little playtesting yet. So in fact it would be great if you try them out and give me feedback!

 

Maybe next month I'll be able to find time to do that.  We'll see.

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21 minutes ago, Admiral Theia said:

@DScipio nothing says what size these should be.  Do you have a list somewhere you could share, like on Google drive?

Not ready yet, planned for next week.

Size and bases are in their KDY entry.

Perhaps I should put them here too.

Edited by DScipio

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