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Lord Malice

Tournament Draw

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Tonight we had our first IA tourney, was a great experience but we had a disagreement about the draw rule in the tournament rules guide.

 

our 1st and 2nd players were playing each other and time ran out both had the same amount of victory points. so we went to tourney rules. it says when in the rare event that a tie happens the player with the most VP's from defeating hostile Figures wins the game.

Now to me it says figures not groups. so I think that if you have say a group of stormtroopers and you kill only 1 of them for the instance of this rule you count the single figure not entire group. what say you guys?

 

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Tonight we had our first IA tourney, was a great experience but we had a disagreement about the draw rule in the tournament rules guide.

 

our 1st and 2nd players were playing each other and time ran out both had the same amount of victory points. so we went to tourney rules. it says when in the rare event that a tie happens the player with the most VP's from defeating hostile Figures wins the game.

Now to me it says figures not groups. so I think that if you have say a group of stormtroopers and you kill only 1 of them for the instance of this rule you count the single figure not entire group. what say you guys?

I'd say that you don't get the points until the last figure in a group is defeated. If you look at the Skirmish Guide page 5 "Winning Skirmish" & Rules Reference Guide page 25 it says:

Defeating Figures: When the last figure in a group is defeated, the opposing player scores VPs equal to the deployment cost of that group.

So when the Tourney rules says "VP's from figures" I (being a non native English speaking person) would say that the detailed description from the SG & RRG is the one you need to go by: the points obtained from killing an entire group are in fact coming from "destroying (individual) figures"

So 1 remotely hidde Stormtrooper => no VP's from that group

Everyone agree?

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This way of scoring is somewhat similar to parts of X-Wing:

A severely injured Y-Wing with 1 hull remaining that have launched all its torpedoes and even lost its ion turret is still worth it's full start value if it remains on the board at the end of the game.

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If you were to measure the points from figures rather than groups, how would you measure the killing of a Rebel Sabateur? Round up for 3VPs, round down for 2VPs, or figure out a way to track that half a point? My point being, it doesn't work for single figures, only when the entire group is defeated does it make sense.

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I'm sure you guys are right, I looked at the RRG and it does say under tie breaker that player that has defeated the highest deployment cost of hostile figures wins.

BUT

Under the tournament rules Page 2 upper right corner it says in the rare situation that both players have the same vp. The player with the most vp's from defeating hostile figures wins.

That's 2 different statements, and the rebel saboteur comment , the deployment cards have 2 sets of costs on it it's normal cost and reinforcement cost with is broken down into what would be individual costs. I just want the rules to say the same for everything not 2 ways to say the same thing ok. Just want a ffg ruling. By tourney rules to me says figures not total deployment cost of figures. Does anyone see what I mean?

Edited by Lord Malice

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I'm sure you guys are right, I looked at the RRG and it does say under tie breaker that player that has defeated the highest deployment cost of hostile figures wins.

BUT

Under the tournament rules Page 2 upper right corner it says in the rare situation that both players have the same vp. The player with the most vp's from defeating hostile figures wins.

That's 2 different statements, and the rebel saboteur comment , the deployment cards have 2 sets of costs on it it's normal cost and reinforcement cost with is broken down into what would be individual costs. I just want the rules to say the same for everything not 2 ways to say the same thing ok. Just want a ffg ruling. By tourney rules to me says figures not total deployment cost of figures. Does anyone see what I mean?

 

Look at "Winning a Skirmish" on pg 5 of the skirmish rules. Two sources are clearly defined:

 

"Defeating Figures" and "Card and Mission Effects" 

 

The tournament rules is referencing this definition. which is:

 

Defeating Figures: When the last figure in a group is defeated,

the opposing player scores VPs equal to the deployment cost

of that group. To track this, the card’s controller places the

Deployment card near his opponent.

 

You do not get points for defeating individual figures necessarily - only if it was the last figure of that group.

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In the rare situation that both players have the same number of
VPs at the end of the game, the player with the most VPs from

defeating hostile figures wins the game.

 

Doesn't this just mean tally up points from figures killed and not from objectives? So if I killed half your army but  you got just as many points from the objectives I would win?

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I was present for this tournament and this is what happened:

The game came down to a draw at the end of time.

Neither player defeated any deployment cards of their opponent

They both split the objective VPs evenly

 

Player A had put damage on a few of Player B's units, this damage killed all of those figures but at least 1 figure from each deployment card survived unscathed.

 

Player B had put damage on a single unit belonging to Player A, but that damage was not enough to kill it.

 

Where the disagreement comes in is in how the game treats the dead units belonging to Player B.  A strict reading of the rules means that those kills are pointless and do not factor at all into breaking the tie.  On the other side, it doesn't seem right that Player A did more damage to Player B, but because Player A's figure is still alive it counts against him.  It seems to reward those that fail to kill the enemy over those that do kill them but don't kill enough of them to score the Deployment card.

 

I think the rule is clear enough to call Player B the winner, but at the same time I do hope this is FAQ'd to allow the wounds inflicted on partial squad kills to count as wounds on the board for the tie breaker.

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Since neither player defeated any deployment cards, I would go to the second tiebreaker rule and add up all the damage tokens. Player with the fewest would win.

 

(Tournament rules pg 2)

 

If the result is still a tie, the player with the fewest damage tokens on his or her remaining figures wins. If players are still tied, the game is a draw. 

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I was present for this tournament and this is what happened:

The game came down to a draw at the end of time.

Neither player defeated any deployment cards of their opponent

They both split the objective VPs evenly

 

Player A had put damage on a few of Player B's units, this damage killed all of those figures but at least 1 figure from each deployment card survived unscathed.

 

Player B had put damage on a single unit belonging to Player A, but that damage was not enough to kill it.

 

Where the disagreement comes in is in how the game treats the dead units belonging to Player B.  A strict reading of the rules means that those kills are pointless and do not factor at all into breaking the tie.  On the other side, it doesn't seem right that Player A did more damage to Player B, but because Player A's figure is still alive it counts against him.  It seems to reward those that fail to kill the enemy over those that do kill them but don't kill enough of them to score the Deployment card.

 

I think the rule is clear enough to call Player B the winner, but at the same time I do hope this is FAQ'd to allow the wounds inflicted on partial squad kills to count as wounds on the board for the tie breaker.

 

Then as DarkJodo said you should have moved to the second tie breaker, fewest damage tokens. 

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When a fig dies, where dies it say remove the damage tokens? It saysto remove the model, but where tokens?

 

If the unit is dead why does it need the tokens anymore with its miniature or card ?

 

Either way it is in the rules but no rulebook handy

 

Edit:see below. 

Edited by Toqtamish

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When a fig dies, where dies it say remove the damage tokens? It saysto remove the model, but where tokens?

 

Under "Defeated" pg 10 RRG:

 

When any other figure is defeated, it is removed from the

map along with any of its condition and damage tokens.

Edited by DarkJodo

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I was also at this tournament, and we did go to the second tie breaker.  The Skirmish rulebook says, "If the result is still a tie,the player with the fewest damage tokens on his or her remaining figures wins."

 

In this instance it was interpreted as Figures on the board, not counting the ones that had been removed back to their deployment cards.  It seems a little odd that those figures removed don't count, because in this case it would have been better to wound multiple units rather than remove them from play.

 

 

Edit: small wording mistake.

Edited by HeliosLancer

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Wouldn't it just have been easier to let them play one more round? After all, we're talking about 1st and 2nd place here.

 

I know that's not part of the tournament rules, but it would have made things decisive.

Edited by Fizz

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Wouldn't it just have been easier to let them play one more round? After all, we're talking about 1st and 2nd place here.

 

I know that's not part of the tournament rules, but it would have made things decisive.

 

Letting them play one more round could actually impact the overall standings.  The person who won may take first, but the person who lost doesn't necessarily take second.  By giving him another round, he could gain more Victory Points than he should have in the timed round, meaning he has an advantage over other vying for second place.

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I was also at this tournament, and we did go to the second tie breaker.  The Skirmish rulebook says, "If the result is still a tie,the player with the fewest damage tokens on his or her remaining figures wins."

 

In this instance it was interpreted as Figures on the board, not counting the ones that had been removed back to their deployment cards.  It seems a little odd that those figures removed don't count, because in this case it would have been better to wound multiple units rather than remove them from play.

 

 

Edit: small wording mistake.

There will never be a tie-breaker rule that won't be "unfair" to someone in certain situations/circumstances. It simply will never happen. Tie breakers are in their very nature "breaking ties" and the player who loses will (to some extent) feel a bit annoyed by the rule.

Now of course we may all have more or less well founded or personal views/objections to tie breakers, SoS etc

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Forensicus, I agree and understand that a tiebreaker is always a little unfair.  What I thought was odd was how the tie breaker points can be the same despite one person clearly doing more damage.  For example: A set of storm troopers with 1 figure alive undamaged on the board with 2 on the deployment card is the same as all three being undamaged on the board for the sake of this level of tie breaker.

 

In the case of this tournament, even the last tie breaker was pretty close and only came down to a couple of hits.

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Forensicus, I agree and understand that a tiebreaker is always a little unfair.  What I thought was odd was how the tie breaker points can be the same despite one person clearly doing more damage.  For example: A set of storm troopers with 1 figure alive undamaged on the board with 2 on the deployment card is the same as all three being undamaged on the board for the sake of this level of tie breaker.

 

In the case of this tournament, even the last tie breaker was pretty close and only came down to a couple of hits.

 

There seems to be a word or something missing in your post.

 

Anyways, I was in no way doubting that you didn't understand the slight unfairness of any given tiebreaker.

 

In this game it can be boiled down to this:

If you can't destroy a figure or group then ensure that you deal or spread out as much Damage as possible if/when you can see the game coming down to wire.

 

Having not played any Skirmish tourney yet myself I can't speak much about how this really will work, but one thing I do like about the tiebreaker here is that it favors the person doing the most "actual skirmish" ie destroys most figures.

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If you can't destroy a figure or group then ensure that you deal or spread out as much Damage as possible if/when you can see the game coming down to wire.

 

Having not played any Skirmish tourney yet myself I can't speak much about how this really will work, but one thing I do like about the tiebreaker here is that it favors the person doing the most "actual skirmish" ie destroys most figures.

 

Except in the case in question it doesn't. One player could pile up 10 damage on Vader, the other player could kill 1 elite royal guard and 3 pairs of common storm troopers (leaving one alive from each group). The teams would have even 0 scores and then be compared. The team that put 12 damage on vader would win even though the other team dealt almost double the damage and destroyed 7 figures (but scored no points).

Edited by KennedyHawk

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I really have a hard time seeing how you  can tie in this game unless you just don't want to fight and if you are just running guys away I mean really yeah thats a legal move. This to a point is stalling to me.

 

The question I have is how many rounds did they? were you slow playing?

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The tournament rules say Figure don't the tournament rules rule the RRG? After thinking about this killing figures as the first tie breaker and then damage makes sense. It avoids the whole I will run a the last guy of my group to cause a tie and you lose. Even though you got out played.

Edited by Jonnyb815

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