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Chimaera

What Would you Like Changed In the Game?

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Wow. Looking at the above list of rules you don't like / want fixed and the fact that you don't like the pathfinder system it's obvious you probably only like the game due to the theme. I mean: you want adjusted rules for the setup time?

I'd only clear up some rules and provide more maps. Maps should be the same material, not paper maps. And the pathfinder system should be used, otherwise it's not tannhauser.

To be fair: I hope they don't change too much. They only need to release more of the same.

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Eddie said:

 

Wow. Looking at the above list of rules you don't like / want fixed and the fact that you don't like the pathfinder system it's obvious you probably only like the game due to the theme. I mean: you want adjusted rules for the setup time?

I'd only clear up some rules and provide more maps. Maps should be the same material, not paper maps. And the pathfinder system should be used, otherwise it's not tannhauser.

To be fair: I hope they don't change too much. They only need to release more of the same.

 

 

Eddie looking at your post it is clear you didn't read the first paragraph in my post properly and all the posts before it. If you had you would have noticed I drew most of these points from previous posts even though I do agree with a lot of them. With regards to the set up time. I will explain. All the tokens require some management and sifting before the start. I would much rather prefer a deck of cards replace the general equipment tokens and the factions have their own eqipment decks. You could still use the tokens to mark crates on the map but it would much easier to manage a deck of equpment cards than the fiddly tokens we have at the moment. Can you imagine after a few more large releases. You will have so many tokens it will become a headache to manage them or find items easily.

Your right I was drawn to the theme and the quality/style of the pre-painted minis. I didn't go into the shop and say wow look at that little pathfinder emblem on the box and then rush home to open the box to read the combat mechanics. Lets be honest here it was the theme and minis that sucked a lot of us in.  

The more I think about the PF system the more I think it will hold the game back.

I will narturally accept the changes that are made although my hopes are probably more radical than most.

 

Just as an aside. Plageman what do the French players of the game think about what is happening. Do they see this as a USA company stepping in on their scene and will just exclude the French community that has been built up. Indeed what have the staff at TOY said about it all. I am surprised that maybe more French players aren't coming on here and lobbying FFG to have a similar set up to the TOY site (that I would like). Also is there French players who would like to see change or amendments to the game. I feel that the French Tannhauser gaming community must be worst hit by the change & I take no pleasure in that fact.

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My thoughts are well-expressed by Chimaera on a re-do. Hopefully those working on the update have a simple but genious way to iron out the clunkiness of the game play while still retaining the core of the rules -- I know, that's hoping for a lot!

 

The rules as they stand are quite simple, it's the little chrome bits that tend to slow things up for me -- For one, all the token symbols are hard to keep track of, especially Heizinger's, which look so much alike. This could be addressed with new character cards without changing any rules.

 

Two could be providing specific scenario set ups with token locations for faster set-up. This could also be done without changing any rules.

 

Just having a fresh look taken at the game could go a long way to making the upcoming update something we all can agree on.

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Chimaera said:

 

Your right I was drawn to the theme and the quality/style of the pre-painted minis. I didn't go into the shop and say wow look at that little pathfinder emblem on the box and then rush home to open the box to read the combat mechanics. Lets be honest here it was the theme and minis that sucked a lot of us in.  

 

 

 

Hey if you're going to change everything about the game, why not change the theme to a vanilla fantasy setting. Fantasy games sell well.

 

Why not change the minis to wooden meeples, everyone loves meeples. I'm sure the game will please everyone if they did that!

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Just a reminder to the rather increasingly pointed rejoinders to Chimaera's expressed wishes:  This thread is clearly just a wish list; there's no need to start sniping at his opinions. Throughout all the many incantations of FFG's forums, there has never been a place here for attacking someone's personal opinions.

 

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

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Littlewars I am sure if FFG knew they could shift 10x the amount of Tannhauser packed with Meeples they would. As for a Fantasy setting this is one of  the core strengths of Tannhauser in the fact it is not a Fantasy setting and draws on a different type of player. This leads nicely in to the last big request to FFG.

I like the theme of the game very much and the fact each character seems to have their own unique background. Unfortunately the English speaking players of Tannhauser haven't had the same in depth background exposure as the French players and this is certainly something FFG need to pick up on and extend. I noticed in the recent news announcement the report was by Patton. This seemed a bit out from what I understand of the background but then again I haven't seen or read an extensive amount of background. I am not sure I like the idea of known historical Generals starting to play a part in the Tannhauser universe. I would have much preferred unique character evolvement with their own unique history.

The Tannhauser missions seem a bit lacking and FFG could do with producing some sort of missions booklet. They also need to take a look at objective structuring within the missions as the current format seems a bit akward and not that fulfilling. Indeed the lack of cohesive missions in the base game and nothing noteworthy in Novogrod is to the detriment of the game. The mini expansions provide futher missions but nothing cohesive. Hopefully FFG will pick this up going forward. They could also expand the background story greatly within this mission booklet and capture more player interest. One of the other problems with the missions is the loss of a key character or two can bring the whole thing to an abrupt end (unless you house rule) & once again the fixed objective points marked on the map are another negative of the current map design in my opinion. It would have been great if they had packaged the whole map layout for the castle in the base set (yes they would have to be paper maps) as it would of been a neat trick to have been able to play on multiple levels.

 Edit

I am sorry if this thread seems to have devolved into a self serving wish list for me or some of my opinions cause offence. It was not my original intention when starting this thread. I wish more members would post their thoughts and we could have a better debate and more ideas for FFG to chew on. In a way the lack of expression is a barometer of how low the take up on the game has been. I would love this forum to be a hive of activity but it is simply not the case. By the way! No offence taken to any comments (so far LOL) and I appreciate you pointing out the intention of the thread Torbal.

 

 

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Chimaera said:

The Tannhauser missions seem a bit lacking and FFG could do with producing some sort of missions booklet. They also need to take a look at objective structuring within the missions as the current format seems a bit akward and not that fulfilling. Indeed the lack of cohesive missions in the base game and nothing noteworthy in Novogrod is to the detriment of the game. The mini expansions provide futher missions but nothing cohesive. Hopefully FFG will pick this up going forward. They could also expand the background story greatly within this mission booklet and capture more player interest. One of the other problems with the missions is the loss of a key character or two can bring the whole thing to an abrupt end (unless you house rule) & once again the fixed objective points marked on the map are another negative of the current map design in my opinion. It would have been great if they had packaged the whole map layout for the castle in the base set (yes they would have to be paper maps) as it would of been a neat trick to have been able to play on multiple levels.

 

 

 

 

This is another great idea, and another one that would not involve any rule changes. I have yet to purchase Novgorod because I didn't feel it was going to be worth the price (except for the nice minis) as it didn't appear to do anything to advance the game into the deeper experience hinted at in the introduction to the rulebook. There is so much that can be done to TH without changing the rules that I really do hope FFG is indeed taking a keen interest in its future.

 

Here's another idea: as a compromise on those who like the Pathfinder System versus a more open map, FFG could do what has been done with Classic Battletech: write a companion set of rules for playing TH as a regular miniatures game without set-piece maps. (Yes, we can do this ourselves with some simple measurement conversions, but an official version would potentially make the game more appealing to those who presently don't play the game.)

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If FFG bought the IP, I don't think the game is doing as bad as some think. It is going into its third FFG printing, and that doesn't include sales outside of english speaking countries.

I agree that many players want more background material that is consistent with what Tannhausers original game designers came up. The upcoming Daedalus does feature a series of linked missions I think most players will enjoy.

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littlewars said:

 

I agree that many players want more background material that is consistent with what Tannhausers original game designers came up. The upcoming Daedalus does feature a series of linked missions I think most players will enjoy.

 

This is good to hear. Do you know if the scenarios are open-ended so that you can use any characters you have? I ask this as I don't own any of the Russian figures from Novgorod.

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Torbal said:

 

Here's another idea: as a compromise on those who like the Pathfinder System versus a more open map, FFG could do what has been done with Classic Battletech: write a companion set of rules for playing TH as a regular miniatures game without set-piece maps. (Yes, we can do this ourselves with some simple measurement conversions, but an official version would potentially make the game more appealing to those who presently don't play the game.)

Me and my group are playing TH now as an Tabletop. Were using the Necromunda Rules (a GW Skirmish Tabletop).A few changes on weapons and equipment and you can put the reich, union and matriarchy in.I´ve wrote 3 Army Lists for every faction and we love the game. Much more tactical options and story and its also looks better.The scale is the same as in Necromunda and the rules are free to download.

When we have no much time we play on the TH maps and its as funny as ever. I need only more MAPS!!!

 

 

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Chimaera said:

 

Eddie looking at your post it is clear you didn't read the first paragraph in my post properly and all the posts before it. If you had you would have noticed I drew most of these points from previous posts even though I do agree with a lot of them. With regards to the set up time. I will explain. All the tokens require some management and sifting before the start. I would much rather prefer a deck of cards replace the general equipment tokens and the factions have their own eqipment decks. You could still use the tokens to mark crates on the map but it would much easier to manage a deck of equpment cards than the fiddly tokens we have at the moment. Can you imagine after a few more large releases. You will have so many tokens it will become a headache to manage them or find items easily.

 

 

I did read all the posts and still had that impression.

 

For setup time: I simply bagged all tokens together with the corresponding figure. One bag for each. Yes, I used a lot of zip locks, but it saves a lot of time.

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Chimaera said:

 Just as an aside. Plageman what do the French players of the game think about what is happening. Do they see this as a USA company stepping in on their scene and will just exclude the French community that has been built up. Indeed what have the staff at TOY said about it all. I am surprised that maybe more French players aren't coming on here and lobbying FFG to have a similar set up to the TOY site (that I would like). Also is there French players who would like to see change or amendments to the game. I feel that the French Tannhauser gaming community must be worst hit by the change & I take no pleasure in that fact.

Most of the French community see the buyout as th end of the game as they knew it and they are most disheartened. From what I've read most players will distance themselves with the game until FFG releases the revised version. 

It's going to be hard times for the French Tannhäuser community and I don't expect it to survive the ordeal unscathed. You must understand that we've been plugged into the game mechanics and background developpement since day one and both the sale of the IP to FFG and the end of the organized play is a very important change for us.

Now for what I'd like to change in the game is mostly cosmetics:

- Use cards instead of equipement and character tokens (see my previous post about this)

- Use thicker circles on the maps.

- Draw small lines between circles so it's easier to decide which circle is adjacent to another.

As for the game rules themselves I acknowledge there is need for small change and explanations. After all the French version of the FAQ I helped to maintain is 15 pages long, that's almost the size of the rules in the first booklet !

 

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Eddie said:

Chimaera said:

 

For setup time: I simply bagged all tokens together with the corresponding figure. One bag for each. Yes, I used a lot of zip locks, but it saves a lot of time.

We are doing the same and its fasten the setup very well. I need no cards, because you need more space on the table for cards

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Prophecy said:

I need no cards, because you need more space on the table for cards

Ussually I stack the cards and then it takes much less space on the table. Plus I have all the info I need on the card. No need to refer to a booklet or cheat sheet. It also make prep time a whiz because I just have to select the good cards and I'm ready to play.

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I am sorry to hear the French community sounds so dispondent over the change but I can understand the reasons. Hopefully whatever FFG does will be for the better and that the community will not be shattered too much. With any luck FFG will continue this online campaign thing.

Eddie thanks for your response. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

The fact that FFG bought the IP could also be that they see Tannhauser as an untapped resource. Especially if they want to push ahead with more product or different idea's and TOY didn't/couldn't agree.

With regards to the token management. Your absolutely correct bagging them is the best solution at the moment but can you imagine after a possible four more mini expansions and one large one. The tokens will start to become a real pain. One thing I think me and Plageman can definitely agree on is the introduction of cards represnting the characters and equipment.

 

Well I am going to play devil's advocate one last time. I noticed FFG have released a state of the game announcement for Tannhauser and a second edition is mentioned. With this in mind and beyond I am going to express what I would like this second edition to look like and some other factors. It will be a radical change and please anyone don't take offence.

Maps & PF system

Scrap the current map format and introduce standard square grid maps.

Redesign the Castle map so that it has well placed stairs that allow movement between floors (plus create rules for this).

Package the game with 4 good quality paper maps. Four sides would represent the various floors of the Castle. The other sides could be the British museum or a bunker or whatever.

Minis

FFG should aim for the highest production values for the pieces.  There are plenty of games out there using pre-paint minis that are really pushing production values. THE ADVENTURERS game even shows how a smaller/newer game is pushing this envelope and while the Space Hulk minis are not pre-painted their production values are of the highest standard. Tannhauser has a good reputation in this department but FFG should not be complacent as one thing that will define games going forward will be the production values of the pre-paints.

Character cards and tokens.

Without doubt replace them with standard sized cards. Would make storage easier and game play smoother. Would make the equipment easier to view and understand. They would also potentially save on some of the current production costs which could be used else where and possibly reduce the box weight of the game, making feight cheaper.

Character stats and general game mechanics

Scrap the current stats system and replace it with something much more intuitive and also make each character have some inherent unique skills permanently stated on their card setting them apart from others. This would also cut out some of the equipment cards.

The game mechanics need a complete overhaul my opinion and this is for FFG to decide on but the issues already listed in this thread make a good reference tool.

Story mode/background

A linked mission booklet should be a must for the new edition. The lack of this in the original release was a big mistake. The background should also be advanced and the Tannhauser universe cleverly devised and documented in future expansion and on this site.

Expansions

FFG need to release at least one large, one medium and four mini expansions per annum in a timely co-ordinated fashion E.g. large and medium every 6 months and a mini one every three months. I don't want to see releases every months but something like this release schedule I am sure would keep interest up without overkill.

The expansion of the current factions is a must and already in the pipeline from what I know. The Mercenary faction could do with a couple more characters. A large or medium expansion could intro another faction. I would dearly love this to be the Golden Globe Social Club but it could be any other faction. Variety is the spice of life after all.

It would be good if each small expansion could also come with a  new map. Paper maps would make this much more possible. This way you would potentially get 6 new double sided maps per annum.

Website and Vassal

It would be great if the Tannhauser form could be more like the TOY one and the online Vassal camapaign like the French one was also introduced.

 

While I know this is a complete departure from the current format. I do feel if FFG got it right Tannhauser could have a much more successful relaunch and much more potential in the long run. If FFG is considering a radical change to the game they should do it now and whatever they look to introduce/change should be tested to destruction to make sure it's a winner. While I believe people can accept change for an improvment in any walk of life. Change introduced that is not seen as an improvement is doomed to fall on its behind.

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Once again I think that what you're aiming at Chimaera is another kind of game using the Tannhäuser IP, one game we or may not see released depending on FFG deciding how to exploit the IP.

From the State of the Game it is quite clear that th Pathfinfing system will be kept as is the current character stats. The V2 is said to be totally backward compatible with the already produced material and there is no mention of an "upgrade" pack at the moment.

Now about the minis, I'd like FFG to scrap the single packs and replace them with squad packs of 3 to 5 miniatures as it's much more cost efficient. I'd like to see at least a squad pack every 6 months. Suad packs could be for one faction or maybe even mixed factions to introduce a new hero/troop for each faction.

While I agree that paper maps would be cheaper to produce I think it would also reduce the overall quality of the game as is the introduction of non painted miniatures.

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Give Ramrz. a granade launcher that has a use, and give Hermetica a larger influence on other characters, and finally give characters with very weak weapons aka the +0 walther some sort of weapon, I mean really it is a BB gun.  Other than that TH is by far one of the best games I have ever played because it is so open to interpretation and fun variants.  My two cents.

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Naw, I'd rather keep the old format for characters and their stats. It's unique and it works well. Maybe have a few dozen tokens to represent when a character has been activated for the turn. We use plastic bingo discs to mark characters that have acted, and also use them to mark all the spots affected by a smoke grenade.

I'm glad it looks like they are keeping the pathfinder. Makes life much easier.

I'm good with a few paper maps to cheaply add to the mix. More maps that can be connected would make some epic games.

I'm excited about the new rules. I enjoy the game already, but it feels just a little "off" sometimes. Can't really put my finger on it though.

Expansions are great. The one figure at a time release helps with the cost, so I'm good with that.

 

 

 

 

 

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Chimaera said:

I am sorry to hear the French community sounds so dispondent over the change but I can understand the reasons. Hopefully whatever FFG does will be for the better and that the community will not be shattered too much. With any luck FFG will continue this online campaign thing.

Eddie thanks for your response. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

The fact that FFG bought the IP could also be that they see Tannhauser as an untapped resource. Especially if they want to push ahead with more product or different idea's and TOY didn't/couldn't agree.

With regards to the token management. Your absolutely correct bagging them is the best solution at the moment but can you imagine after a possible four more mini expansions and one large one. The tokens will start to become a real pain. One thing I think me and Plageman can definitely agree on is the introduction of cards represnting the characters and equipment.

 

Well I am going to play devil's advocate one last time. I noticed FFG have released a state of the game announcement for Tannhauser and a second edition is mentioned. With this in mind and beyond I am going to express what I would like this second edition to look like and some other factors. It will be a radical change and please anyone don't take offence.

Maps & PF system

Scrap the current map format and introduce standard square grid maps.

Redesign the Castle map so that it has well placed stairs that allow movement between floors (plus create rules for this).

Package the game with 4 good quality paper maps. Four sides would represent the various floors of the Castle. The other sides could be the British museum or a bunker or whatever.

Minis

FFG should aim for the highest production values for the pieces.  There are plenty of games out there using pre-paint minis that are really pushing production values. THE ADVENTURERS game even shows how a smaller/newer game is pushing this envelope and while the Space Hulk minis are not pre-painted their production values are of the highest standard. Tannhauser has a good reputation in this department but FFG should not be complacent as one thing that will define games going forward will be the production values of the pre-paints.

Character cards and tokens.

Without doubt replace them with standard sized cards. Would make storage easier and game play smoother. Would make the equipment easier to view and understand. They would also potentially save on some of the current production costs which could be used else where and possibly reduce the box weight of the game, making feight cheaper.

Character stats and general game mechanics

Scrap the current stats system and replace it with something much more intuitive and also make each character have some inherent unique skills permanently stated on their card setting them apart from others. This would also cut out some of the equipment cards.

The game mechanics need a complete overhaul my opinion and this is for FFG to decide on but the issues already listed in this thread make a good reference tool.

Story mode/background

A linked mission booklet should be a must for the new edition. The lack of this in the original release was a big mistake. The background should also be advanced and the Tannhauser universe cleverly devised and documented in future expansion and on this site.

Expansions

FFG need to release at least one large, one medium and four mini expansions per annum in a timely co-ordinated fashion E.g. large and medium every 6 months and a mini one every three months. I don't want to see releases every months but something like this release schedule I am sure would keep interest up without overkill.

The expansion of the current factions is a must and already in the pipeline from what I know. The Mercenary faction could do with a couple more characters. A large or medium expansion could intro another faction. I would dearly love this to be the Golden Globe Social Club but it could be any other faction. Variety is the spice of life after all.

It would be good if each small expansion could also come with a  new map. Paper maps would make this much more possible. This way you would potentially get 6 new double sided maps per annum.

Website and Vassal

It would be great if the Tannhauser form could be more like the TOY one and the online Vassal camapaign like the French one was also introduced.

 

While I know this is a complete departure from the current format. I do feel if FFG got it right Tannhauser could have a much more successful relaunch and much more potential in the long run. If FFG is considering a radical change to the game they should do it now and whatever they look to introduce/change should be tested to destruction to make sure it's a winner. While I believe people can accept change for an improvment in any walk of life. Change introduced that is not seen as an improvement is doomed to fall on its behind.

so ... basically you don't like the game, but the story?

Why on earth would you change EVERYTHING? I mean, just play something else if you don't like it. dude.

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Hope FFG keeps about 90% of the rules the same.

 

things I want changed

 

Bull Rush - No action required

Grenade - Can be thrown on a occupied spot

Yula- fix her stats up a bit she is quite weak in my opinion

smaller flash machine guns - I'm OK with Brown having the ultimate killy gun, but half the union has them. Maybe something if you roll a 10 it does 1 additional hit?

weapon summery cards- don't think it should totaly replace tokens since you will need them for dropped items, unless they throw that out!! preocupado.gif

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The Sundance Kid said:

weapon summery cards- don't think it should totaly replace tokens since you will need them for dropped items, unless they throw that out!! preocupado.gif

From my experience, you just put the equipment cards of the killed character on another part of the table and place a token with the character face on the map. If a character wants to get an equipement from the "corpse" just hand over the cards.

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