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Chimaera

What Would you Like Changed In the Game?

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The reason I say that Tannhauser is really a miniatures game is because the game would play exactly the same if the figures were replaced with tokens. There is no physical terrain or objects that matter at all to the game. This has been true of many 'miniature' games of late - Star Wars Minis, Heroclix, etc. I love the figures, but this is a board game.

Have a look at a map and seriously think about the rooms and how many people the pathfindings allow in there. I think it is correct. You are not going to have 20 soldiers packed into a living room. The Paths make the map clearer, more open, and more fun. I like them.

The Bull Rush needs to be changed and the grenade rule needs to be changed. For grenades, you should not be able to aim at a circle occupied by your own troops, but otherwise you should be able to target an occupied space. Maybe you make a roll and if you miss, your opponent gets to move it to an adjacent circle. Or something, but you should be able to toss a grenade into a crowded hallway.

Some kind of overwatch would also be good - to spend your action in order to wait to use your action.

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It's been said critiques are simply prejudices made public. If you can't see the merit the pathfinding system has in streamlining a the game, I doubt you will ever be convinced, and it's no ones job to convince you. Pathfinding takes care of range, area effect, line of site, player arguments, and avoids slowing down play.

I think the whole pathfinding discussion is a little too speculative begin with. I'm very sure FFG isn't foolish enough to abandon the pathfinding system. This is a core mechanic. If you don't like it, all you are saying is you don't like the game, but it has nice fluff. If that's the case, go read a book, they are 100% fluff. I like the system and the fluff is the icing.

I don't want FFG to produce crummy paper maps, and here's why: playtesting. Cheap paper maps are easy to produce, so not much thought or playtesting go into their creation. I've heard many players of CMG complain about broken unplaytested maps proliferating the hobby. If a company has to pony up funds to make a REAL map board, it can't be dud. Anyone remember FFG's downloadable Tannhauser map?

Chimera, you focus too much on the players it has not attracted, and not the players that enjoy it. If you try to please everyone you usually end up with a mediocre and homogeneous product. In reality, I think that the slow release schedule and poor support are the reasons Tannhauser turned off a few players. That is where FFG now has an opportunity to fix things.

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I like the PS System too.

The room is small and thats good because you have only 5 miniatures (often fewer because some of them will die) and so all of them are in the middle of the game and there is no need to walk and walk all over the time to get into the battle.

You can block an entrance with only one figure because of the Pathes and i think this is the idea of the game.

But i also wish i had more maps to play but 3 of them are okay (with novgorod expansion) for the moment.

I dont like the story mode, its boring and there is no story. The most games with my group are capture the flag, Domination and King of the hill.

We also have some house rules.

1. grenades CAN be thrown in an occupied space (there is no serious reason why not)

2. Every team has an BEWARE! Token. When a charakter moves and does nothing else, he can put an BEWARE! Token on his figure. Whenever an enemy Figure moves  on the Path of the BEWARE!-Charakter  this charakter can make a range attack (only Pistols, Automatics and Heavy Weapons are allowed)The use of an BEWARE! Token costs a Victory Point

 

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Prophecy said:

I dont like the story mode, its boring and there is no story. The most games with my group are capture the flag, Domination and King of the hill.

Objective tokens allow you to create your own story & scenario, just like if you were creating a RPG scenario. And furthermore you can make "story" campaigns but it requires imaginating you're in different places as there are only 4 maps (basic maps, novgorod & deadalus)

 

Prophecy said:

 

2. Every team has an BEWARE! Token. When a charakter moves and does nothing else, he can put an BEWARE! Token on his figure. Whenever an enemy Figure moves  on the Path of the BEWARE!-Charakter  this charakter can make a range attack (only Pistols, Automatics and Heavy Weapons are allowed)The use of an BEWARE! Token costs a Victory Point

If used with the Schocktruppen, this token might be really deadly (beware + keep firing + mad minute = master blaster erazer combo).

In the past, i suggested TOY to create a sentinel-gun token... that's quite close from your "beware" token ;)

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no extra "powers" are allowed with the BEWARE! option. only normal shot

 

daedalus is not for sale yet in europe (germany) can any of you tell me, whats in the box or how the game is like? New figures, factions ect?

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sepayne7l said:

My biggest disappointment was the story mode. I really thought that the box would contain compaign scenarios. There have been plenty published since then, but I still would like tighter stories.

As I've said elsewhere fan-made scenarios do exist. Some of them are very impressive and are worth reading and playing. More "official" scenarios do exist but only in french at the moment.

Also there is a serious difference between scenarios made by the original French team and those published by FFG. TOY scenario are oftemn more complexe and offer multiple ways of achieving victory as each squad has to score mission points. FFG one are, well let's say much simpler. serio.gif

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littlewars said:

It's been said critiques are simply prejudices made public.

There is another saying which is if you keep doing the same thing don't expect a different result. Tannhauser has got a take up issue outside of France. Believe me when I say it is not just product release that has caused this. A lot of people just didn't like the game for one reason or another. While great things were reported about/on the TOY website the rest of us were left to languish in nothingness. If it wasn't for a few of you French players who frequent this site, we would have been completely in the dark. This was not a good situation and in a way, nobody from TOY or FFG posting on here made for bad product communication or for that matter not taking an interest in the non French player base was a bad move by TOY.

I will agree to disagree about Tannhauser not being a miniatures game. The fact physical terrain is not represented in a 3d way and via a drawn map instead is moot. The fact is the game focuses on minis that can also have their equipment customised for gameplay and enter squad combat doesn't seem like chess to me. Players say they want more minis release not tokens. I can't see players saying wow I can't wait for the next token expansion to be released. I would almost draw a direct comparison to SW minis apart from the mission objectives. Now from comments I can see the French players of the game had a much bigger back drop and other positives on the TOY site. Unfortunately the rest of didn't.

I am not saying squash 20 soldiers into a room. I am saying you would get more movement options/freedom with a square grid map.

I am also not against good quality maps. I just don't think you will get them at the rate people would like in the current format.

Not packaging Asterios with Daedalus was a mistake in my view.

Posting on a game forum and trying to raise both sides of the coin is quite hard. This was my reason for requesting people who didn't like the game to post. That way a balanced opinion can be gained, Once again I am not against the game and some of you will know I have posted on the FFG forums on and off  for quite a while and have never been destructive towards the game. This thread is also not meant to be destructive, just an opportunity to raise opinions. Nobody is right or wrong in their views it's simply their own view and a place to air that view. There is also no pleasure on my part that the game has come out of a French game company's hands which I am sure a lot of French players held dear. Unfotunately the game is out in the big wide world now in the hands of a company like FFG and I am sure they will be looking at overall appeal as opposed to a niche market. Any business who has a product will be looking shift as much of that product as possible to make more profit. I am not demanding change but simply sounding players out on if they would like change and if so, what?

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if you dont like the game, dont play it.

I think you expecting something from Tannhäuser that isnt in the game, but thats not TOYs fault or someone elses.

The game you looking for is not tannhäuser i think. But i hope it will be eventually (with second edition from ffg)

 

i like the game and its style. You are expecting to much maybe because you like the background or the artwork and tannhäuser is giving you not right that. Tannhäuser is a single story in a huge universe and dont want to be more, just a fun-giving shooter/miniature game with expendable equipment.

I like the background myself but i dont blame the game for not having enough fluff factor. I guess many people wanted more of the tannhäuser world in the boardgame, but thats okay because the story is awesome.

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Chimaera, I understand that the support for the game went from inexistant to poor, but TOY can't be blamed for FFG decision not to sell Wolf or for the long delay to releasing Novgorod  or even for the lack of official posts on the boards. About this particular point, I can hardly imagine how TOY could have posted here when FFG does not use his own boards to talk with the fanbase.

As said on the (french) official site, the PF was created to simplify those often complex LOS rules we've all experienced in other games. For me then, removing the Pathfinding is removing what makes Tannhauser different from miniature games.

About Asterios, you will understand when reading the Daedalus campaign that there was no need to pack him with the map. His presence here is not required. If FFG continue what TOY had planned, he will be released with a campaign in which he will feature prominently.

Also remember that with the to-be-released packs you will have a good choice of characters to chose from:

  • Union: 5 Heroes (John, Barry, Tala Ramirez, Hoax),  2x2 troops (Base set + troop pack)
  • Reich: 5 Heroes (Eva, Yula, Hermann, Ozo, the Reichdoktor), 2x2 troops (Base set + troop pack)
  • Matriarchy: 5 Heroes (Zor'ka, Irina, Irishka, Gorgeï, Oksana), 4x2 voivods(Novgorod set + troop pack)
  • Mercenaries: 1 Hero (Wolf)

Each character come with it's own equipement and customization is added with every free  token released. I know that FFG has not been diligent in translating these tokens but I  assure you that the tokens have an even more important impact on the game than the character themselves.

 

 

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Apparently we're forgetting Chimaera's intent for this post: if you would like to see changes to the current TH game, post them here in hopes FFG will take a look and listen before they do an updated rules set.

 

I have several games that use minis on a flat map or board and can't recall having line of sight issues with any of them. These games include Heroquest, Battlemasters, Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, Frag, Star Wars CMG, LOTR, Doom and Incursion. A grid map, be it squares or hexes, would be an easy way to open maps for wider movement options.

Being a skirmish scale game, TH should in my thoughts include the ability to allow all the uber characters to do things like jump on top of tables or crates, or leap over an end table, rather than wearing a path out in the carpet by always having to pick their way through a room. "I'm going to splatter Ozo's brains all over that wall with my flash gun, but Oops! I don't want to bump into that chair, the cleaning lady might get upset with me!"

 

My fear with our posting here is that it will all be for naught; if FFG is as close to releasing their new rules this fall then they are likely close to being completed already. My 2nd fear is that our input here won't matter as FFG has never asked for input from fans for their games, at least not the several that I own and play.  Point in case: Ronan's former weasel companion in Runebound has yet to have a card created in his honor, despite his storied history on all the versions of FFG's forums through the years.

 

 

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Torbal said:

I have several games that use minis on a flat map or board and can't recall having line of sight issues with any of them.

LOS rules, from my pov, often slow the game as you have to check multiple times if you see (or not) the target. the PF system simplify that so it's easier to check. 

About the jumping over obstacle, it can be done inside the PF system, just check it was done for the Daedalus map where you have the possibility to pass over pits.

Torbal said:

My fear with our posting here is that it will all be for naught;

I totally agree. FFG hasn't bothered to correct the layout mistakes in the "Chronology" PDF even after we pointed at them more than one year ago. I understand it's not a critical product but it's sad to see that they didn't care about it.

 

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Well as Plageman mentioned I doubt that FFG will move away from the PS but who knows how things will pan out. I will admit the PS system makes LOS simple but I am not sure if this positive is better than the positives of having a square grid system.

For info I don't want Tannhauser to be just another straight shooter game as I have those games already. What i am looking for is that element to be as good as possible and have the best possible envionment surrounding it.

I will admit TOY was not responsible for these boards but they could have spared a little time once in a blue moon to pop on here an say hello and give some teasers. FFG on the other hand is completely useless with this type if interaction and the expectation was zero anyway. Shame on FFG!

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Well moving on from the map I wanted to air a few more opinions covering the minis, cards & supporting tokens.

Looking at the minis I think they are great and definitely sit with the best out there. They are one of the big positives of the game. The biggest problem has been getting new characters and having a super slow release schedule for the ones we have got has without doubt turned some players off the game. One thing I would not want is FFG to reduce the quality. I would rather FFG make cost savings in other areas to keep the minis quality constant although I do think Gorgei and Ramirez were slightly off the quality of the others we have including Novogrod. Hopefully this trend will not be followed with future releases. I was also hoping the troop pack would have had different poses and weapons configurations just for variety. Its a shame they just chose a new colour scheme. I would love to see variants of troopers with the original colour scheme going forward and look forward to the other expansions already announced including Asterios.

There are a few things I would change with the cards and tokens. I loved the standard smaller card format illustrated by Plageman (this change was already in my thought process) in this thread and would love to see these replace the ones we have already. It would reduce weight and make the game more compact and probably reduce cost. I also like the denotation of the type of character as this could also sit with equipment variation that were available. Maybe they could replace the existing tokens and character  cards with the more compact character card that incoporated a few unique skills associated with that character on the card and maybe then offer a selection of equipment upgrades the character could then choose from. The uniques could maybe choose 1 piece of equip from a unque deck and 1 from a general deck and the soldiers could just choose 1 from a general deck. This would save having loads of equipment cards with each character. This is by no means a definitive requirement but just maybe an idea to play with and I am sure could be refined/improved. The cards carrying the skill definition would also negate the need for a reference sheet. Going forward future expansion will greatly increase the bulk of the game and token management will become a real pain if we get a few more expansions like Novogrod. Smaller character cards and equipment cards carrying definitions would be an improvement in my view.

Lastly I wanted to get on to faction representation and availability. Wolf was a great piece and his lack of availability was a negative. FFG should look to get him back on the shelf ASAP and also expand the Mercenary range. I would also love to see other nations represented in characters e.g. a free French resistance type character or an English Para or Candian soldier (these could even be mecenaries). This would make the game more inclusive and give a wider appeal. I would also dearly love to know more about the Golden Globe Social Club as I had this big Extraordinary League of Gentleman vision in my head  where these characters may have some supernatural ability or skill.  They were probably never earmarked to be this but I loved the idea of a Jekyl & Hyde type character who could transform (maybe had 2 mini representations for before and after transform) . I would also like to see the existing factions expanded in due course and maybe a Mafia faction added?

What do others think on these topics?

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A squad box would be dandy.

 

Maybe they could get something out in the 2nd qrt. of next year?

 

5 minis for each faction, then maybe add a new mercenary.

 

For the Reich, maybe somethin; less "demony" Maybe something a little more "brute force"

A french resitance squad with abilities that heavily rely on team tactics and coordination... and blowing spaces up.

 

For the Mats... don't really know what to add. They are quite a freaky bunch. Probably something with more bots.

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How about neutral characters that could be used for special scenarios. For example, both sides could try to recruit an archaeologist character at a dig site to work for them. Or a not-a-Nazi werewolf rampages through a scenario who is commanded to try to kill one of the characters, or something involving a Vatican hit squad. Lots of pulp fodder out there to draw from.

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Plageman said:

 

FFG hasn't bothered to correct the layout mistakes in the "Chronology" PDF even after we pointed at them more than one year ago. I understand it's not a critical product but it's sad to see that they didn't care about it.

 

 

I have sent PMs (back when the forum supported private messages) to FFG on at least 3 occasions to point out errors in the downloadable scenarios. I was polite and even provided corrections, but I couldn't even get a reply...

On the subject of neutral characters, there are a few fan made scenarios that feature that.

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I just hope that whatever they end up doing doesn't invalidate the original box set they put out, or they go the Talisman route and provide a nice "upgrade pack" to replace incorrect rules, cards, etc.

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I was an orginial Tannhauser Fan as soon I knew about FFG handling the English version,but it died with my group.The problem was & is MAPS we need a lot more variety,after a certain # of plays ,it's why are we attacking the Manor again?The almost total lack of support by FFG to date & the glacial pace of new figs & Expansions just shelved this Game for us.

I would hope that FFG would develop a really good Mission System for the Game so its not like playing the same thing over & over.In a way Tannhauser stopped at the mechanics & never got the fleshed out game support system it deserves.Alas FFG will do as it wants anyway so we'll see ,when they are good they are very,very good & when they are not they just the Game die on the vine.

 

OD

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Official multiplayer capability. Obviously this is related to the maps, entry points and number of available characters and factions. The Novgorod expansion allowed you to squeeze in an extra team (3rd player), but the idea of each person in a multiplayer game controlling one or two characters doesn't work. As per a previous reply to this thread, that may require additional characters. I don't think you could stretch it to more than 4 players, but something along the lines of the Epic gameplay for Commands and Colors games would work well with Tannhauser.

 

Easier setup. They could have pre-printed equipment packs for a quick setup, or you could play the longer (vanilla) setup method as is. I find that one of the reasons the game doesn't hit my table more often is the time it takes to sift through tokens and chose startup equipment, especially if you haven't played for a while and have to figure out what some of the more obscure tokens do again.

More FFG support, similar to that recieved by games like Arkham Horror or the LCG's. A Tannhauser league with regular scenarios (similar to the recent FFG-posted story mode contributions) and an overall annual/ biannual winner, to promote more awareness of the game. I think that the French already have Tannhauser competitions, a big factor in promoting continued interest in the game (and driving the push for regular expansions).

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The French resistance fighters could be an interesting addition (still want Brit unique though LOL).

I also like the idea of a neutral type character, I was wondering how Asterios is controlled. I would imagine the same rules would apply. Indeed it would be good to hear what new game mechanics this expansion brought to the game. 

I too would like a squad box but different poses/weopons please.

I think the point about an upgrade pack would be good if FFG were to make some radical changes. It would be a shame to invalidate the previous set and would not make sense unless the new edition was a blinder.

It would have been great to have had the other floors of the Castle and the ability to move between them. It would have certainly added more depth. I also have mixed views on the fixed locations of the action circles but once again this comes back to the map topic again.

Mutliplayer/factions is definitely something FFG need to look at and the preprint equipment packs would be good for quick play.

Lastly I somehow feel that the unique characters are not quite unique enough. Maybe this is something do with how the stats and abilities are represented and the equipment mix. I always feel each character should have some standard abilities always represented on their card and then the equipment should should be chosen seperately. The stats also don't have enough variation to make the uniques stand out enough and it is the equipment availabilty that makes up for this. I am not quite sure how to put my finger on this issue and it is probably just in my head but there you go.

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Well I thought it would be interesting to E-mail FFG regarding the aquistion of the Tannhauser IP and also brought their attention to this thread. I was pleasantly surprised to get a response within 24hrs and it would appear from the response below that FFG follow their forum topics a little more closely than we may have thought previously. Lets hope FFG become more active with the Tannhauser line than they have been to date and address some of the concerns/issues raised in this thread in the not too distant future. Many thanks to J.R. Godwin for the fast response

aplauso.gif

 

 

Hello,


We are currently working on several articles that will address these issues. We do read the threads in our forums, and are happy to address the items brought up within them.


Thank you for your support,

J.R. Godwin
Marketing Coordinator
Fantasy Flight Games

 

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Plageman said:

 

That's interesting. Let's hope we'll get a plenty of information about the revised version and what plans they have in store for following years (Cerberus !).

 

 

Wow when he said they working on some articles they didn't hang around. Great news that Wolf is going to be back on the shelf and another map is coming. The map does look familiar from some where. Was it a fan made map or something from a while back?

Indeed info on Cerberus and for that matter the Golden Globe Social Club would indeed be appreciated. Hopefully FFG will flesh out some of their thoughts in the coming weeks. It would be a winner if someone actually posted on this forum and the community felt a little more involved. This was something TOY seemed to excel at on their site.

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Moving on to the game mechanics and the some of the rules I would like addressed (just my opinion of course). Something doesn't quite seem to work with Tannhauser "it's not the Jedi it ought to be". While I can get on with it, it seems like it could be more fluid and dare I say it a little bit more logical. Many others have raised issues on things they would like to be addressed and I will also include these below. The things that seem to bug people in general are:

Bull rush rule.

Weapons ranges.

Grenades rule.

Melee through doors or maybe even the doors themselves.

Opportunity fire doesn't exist.

Counter attack rule.

Character stats.

VP usage.

First Aid and Morphine rules.

Lack of multiplayer rules.

Shock roll mechanic.

No cover bonus.

Set up time.

Instant death on natural 10's with some weapons.

After listing all these I can probably now understand why I felt the existing mechanics felt a bit clunky. I am not to sure how all of these would be fixed and it would be one for the grown ups to answer. I know probably some will feel some of these points are non issues but they are obviously issues to some others.

I  feel that somehow the characters within the factions need to be looked at as they don't feel particularly balanced at times. Yula & Tala seem to spring to mind.  I also feel that Hermetica is somehow not as dynamic as it should be and I also think it would be good to add a  strategy deck (or whatever you want to call it) could somehow be introduced to mix up the play and add a new dimension to the game.

I will admit I do like the crate searching ability although I am not particularly keen on the fixed action circles. I know you could house rule it but then it seems a waste of an action circle, then again you could house rule that sheez too many house rules. I also like the fact that you can move both before and after shooting although this in someways could also be viewed as a negative.

In some ways you could say maybe the whole system needs a revamp. Don't shoot me it's just my opinion.

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