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Captain Erf

Ordnance fix and boost for Y-Wings and TIE Bombers

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Like many players, I rarely field ordnance, particularly torpedoes. They cost a lot of points that are easily wasted if you roll poorly on your attack, and there’s no way to mitigate poor dice rolling. I’d rathter spend those points on upgrades that grant me benefits throughout the game, rather than on an unreliable, overpriced one-shot ability.

 

Sadly, the impopularity of ordnance means two of my favorite models hardly get used: the Y-Wing and TIE Bomber. Both are designed to carry multiple ordnance weapons, but I’ve never seen anyone spend 8-10 extra points on one (pretty underwhelming) ships for more of these (pretty underwhelming) weapons. The extra ordnance icons on their upgrade bars are wasted.

That’s why I came up with the following 2 pts Torpedo Upgrade card:

 

Double Payload: When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard it to perform the attack, you may discard this card instead.”
 

It’s better than a Munitions Failsafe because you can use your torpedoes twice even if you hit the first time. Essentially, it gives you a second torpedo at a massive discount, but only for ships that can carry multiple torpedoes. Of course it doesn’t fix any of the ordnance issues for other ships, but then it neither requires any changes to the game rules nor a massive (and unlikely) overhaul of all the ordnance weapons point costs.
 

I do believe such a card will lead to an increase in both the use of torpedoes and of Y-Wings and TIE Bombers, in exactly their intended roles: as dedicated and efficient ordnance carriers.
 

And I would suggest introducing this card in a long overdue “Rebel Veterans” box that includes a variant Y-wing and introduces Tiree and other Y-Wing pilots with elite talent uprades ;).

 

(PS note that in the current wording, a TIE Bomber could use this upgrade on missiles as well. Not sure if that’s needed, but the text could be changed to apply to Torpedoes only).

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The idea has merit. I like it as a specific fix for ships with 2 (or more) ordnance slots.

 

I think the main problem with most munitions is the need to spend your target lock just to use it. There needs to be a better way to provide re-rolls on the munitions.

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True. I think the most elegant fix would be that if the attacker spends a target lock to perform an attack with a secondary weapon, he may also reroll his attack dice as normal when spending a target lock.

 

It helps ordnance AND it makes more sense that the game term "spending a target lock" has the same effect that players expect. Or FFG should have used different terms for different effects, such as "discarding" a target lock to make the attack and "spending" a target lock to reroll dice, for example.

 

Also, it's very easy fix to implement as it doesn't require any revision of the cards or the game rules, just a change to one of the FAQs. I only wonder if it doesn't make any of the newer missiles too powerful.

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I think the main problem with most munitions is the need to spend your target lock just to use it.

You mean like you can already do with Homing missiles, which no one ever uses? Or Proton Rockets, which only require a focus which doesn't need to be spent. You'll see the rare case of Prockets being used, but next to never do you see Homing missiles.

That's because for 5 points, a single 4 dice attack is not points well spent. Just keeping the TL is not going to fix munitions, if it did then people would be using Homing missiles occasionally.

The only way you'll fix munitions is by either doing something to increase the avg damage to 3 or higher, or else increase the range of them.

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I think the main problem with most munitions is the need to spend your target lock just to use it.

You mean like you can already do with Homing missiles, which no one ever uses? Or Proton Rockets, which only require a focus which doesn't need to be spent. You'll see the rare case of Prockets being used, but next to never do you see Homing missiles.

That's because for 5 points, a single 4 dice attack is not points well spent. Just keeping the TL is not going to fix munitions, if it did then people would be using Homing missiles occasionally.

The only way you'll fix munitions is by either doing something to increase the avg damage to 3 or higher, or else increase the range of them.

 

 

On Homing Missiles in particular, I think their added benefit is meager for the cost. Defender can't spend evade tokens? That is not impressing me, since the evade action is very rarely the defender's first Action option anyway.

 

Think of how much more use splash-damage munitions would get if they kept the Target Lock for re-rolls? Assault Missiles or Ion Torpedoes would be 5 points well spent.

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On Homing Missiles in particular, I think their added benefit is meager for the cost.

But if keeping your TL was the one and only thing needed to make Munitions viable, then we'd see Homing Missiles used at least occasionally. But we don't, which shows that just keeping the TL isn't enough.

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What I see the issue of "Ordnance" is single shot usage unlike typical star wars loadout for T-65 X-Wing would be a twin tube launchers w/ 3 warheads each.

 

I think it need a mechanic fix than more upgrades.

 

Example, "When a model is equipped with a secondary upgrade card, assign the ship "Weapon Tokens".  When attacking with secondary weapons, remove a token.  When last token is removed, discard secondary weapons card.

 

Munitions Failsafe - (reworded) When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard a token it to perform the attack, discard this card instead unless the attack hits.

 

I can see how every list point is valuable for tourney MoV, could win more matches but still lose to the cut from MoV? i believe.

Edited by XAQT78

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Not a bad idea.  However I'd personally prefer the cost reduced to 1. 

 

  I have a sneaking suspicion that Wave 7 is going to introduce some type of ordinance fix.   Call it a hunch.

I'm going to be contrarian and call it a guess.

Anyway, I like this rule suggestion. Would also be pretty effective on B-Wings, I'd probably use it for Nera Dantels.

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Like many players, I rarely field ordnance, particularly torpedoes. They cost a lot of points that are easily wasted if you roll poorly on your attack, and there’s no way to mitigate poor dice rolling. I’d rathter spend those points on upgrades that grant me benefits throughout the game, rather than on an unreliable, overpriced one-shot ability.

 

Sadly, the impopularity of ordnance means two of my favorite models hardly get used: the Y-Wing and TIE Bomber. Both are designed to carry multiple ordnance weapons, but I’ve never seen anyone spend 8-10 extra points on one (pretty underwhelming) ships for more of these (pretty underwhelming) weapons. The extra ordnance icons on their upgrade bars are wasted.

That’s why I came up with the following 2 pts Torpedo Upgrade card:

 

Double Payload: When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard it to perform the attack, you may discard this card instead.”

 

It’s better than a Munitions Failsafe because you can use your torpedoes twice even if you hit the first time. Essentially, it gives you a second torpedo at a massive discount, but only for ships that can carry multiple torpedoes. Of course it doesn’t fix any of the ordnance issues for other ships, but then it neither requires any changes to the game rules nor a massive (and unlikely) overhaul of all the ordnance weapons point costs.

 

I do believe such a card will lead to an increase in both the use of torpedoes and of Y-Wings and TIE Bombers, in exactly their intended roles: as dedicated and efficient ordnance carriers.

 

And I would suggest introducing this card in a long overdue “Rebel Veterans” box that includes a variant Y-wing and introduces Tiree and other Y-Wing pilots with elite talent uprades ;).

 

(PS note that in the current wording, a TIE Bomber could use this upgrade on missiles as well. Not sure if that’s needed, but the text could be changed to apply to Torpedoes only).

iqwljn.jpg

Not bad although I think a 2 point reduction on proton torpedoes may not be enough. Otherwise you would just take 2 flechette torpedoes so it can pair with munitions failsafe.

 

My concept for Tie Bombers was pretty much the same only it was for Tie bombers only. One allowed a missile slot to be used to clone a Torpedo for (0) squadron points while the other allowed a torpedo slot to be used to clone a missile for only (1) point. Both of these were limited and Tie bombers only so you could only include one of each per Tie Bomber. I think it would work better because it allowed Tie Bombers to have a selection of which secondary weapon to clone first. So you could do stuff like include overlapping ranges instead of just having 2-3 of the same missiles or torpedo secondary weapon.

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What I see the issue of "Ordnance" is single shot usage unlike typical star wars loadout for T-65 X-Wing would be a twin tube launchers w/ 3 warheads each.

 

I think it need a mechanic fix than more upgrades.

 

Example, "When a model is equipped with a secondary upgrade card, assign the ship "Weapon Tokens".  When attacking with secondary weapons, remove a token.  When last token is removed, discard secondary weapons card.

 

Munitions Failsafe - (reworded) When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard a token it to perform the attack, discard this card instead unless the attack hits.

 

I can see how every list point is valuable for tourney MoV, could win more matches but still lose to the cut from MoV? i believe.

I like this idea. Seems like the way they needed to be done in the first place, at least for missiles and torpedos.

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On Homing Missiles in particular, I think their added benefit is meager for the cost.

But if keeping your TL was the one and only thing needed to make Munitions viable, then we'd see Homing Missiles used at least occasionally. But we don't, which shows that just keeping the TL isn't enough.

 

I just suddenly realized your point. Homing Missiles don't require spending the target lock to fire them. Duh. My brain was misfiring.

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At the risk of claiming originality for something that's likely already been suggested by others ....

 

What if a new Title or Modification card came out, granting expendable munitions a similar effect to that of the BTL-A4's use of the turret?

 

That is, the card allows you to make a primary weapon attack, then immediately follow it up with an ordnance launch? All written rules on the ordnance card remain the same. The ordnance becomes marginally more potent since you have the opportunity to strip Focus/Evade tokens with your primary attack before launching the expendable munition.

 

Would this break the game? Imagine Corran with FCS and a Torpedo. Three attacks in one round!

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I'll play devils advocate here, I actually run torps or missles in most of my lists. While I wish that it didn't require losing my target lock to fire them, ships like the z, y and awings really need the offensive punch they give. I've found that as long as I pick my targets well, I get my moneys worth most the time.

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Captain Erf,

I think I'm going to run your two suggestions ("Double Payload" and "spend vs. discard") as house rules and see what happens. I also wonder if a range extension for ordnance would be fun and thematic.

Great! I'm interested to know how you feel it plays out. In particular, I wonder how it scales up if you'd field a whole swarm of double-loaded TIE Bombers. I think it will create a fun dynamic, one player trying to close in and the other attempting to keep his distance to get off that second salvo of missiles. There's a cinematic feel to taking on the threat of a fully armed bomber squadron, darting in with fighters to try and take them out before they can deliver their full payload :)

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I like the thematic feel of ordnance in bombers, y-wings, etc. I would like to see these ships get a boost as it helps differentiate them from others.

It also makes these ships a real threat (particularly if there was a range increase). The ability to sit back and 'snipe' with ordnance would make a bomber a real hazzard.

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For me the ordnance cost needs to be reduced significantly but this is only half the reason why imo bombers and ordnance on other ships has never really caught on. Making the torpedo's or missiles themselves super cheap would help but u still have a large investment in a one-shot effect.

 

in the 'fix the x-wing' thread linked fire has been suggested, allowing a 2nd follow-up attack. something similar has been suggested here and imo thats the best way to improve bombers... given them a free ordnance attack in addition to their standard attack - similar to what the Y-Wing got.

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I do have a suggestion to fix ordnance, with just one card.


 


“Weapons Reload” 1 point


 


“When a card states to “discard this card to perform this attack”, discard this card instead. (Discard the Weapons Reload instead.)


 


This means you get can get 2 Concussion missile or Proton Torpedoes for 5 points. If you have two “Weapon Reload card you have 3 Concussion Missile or Proton Torpedoes for 6 points.  So on so forth. This works for each Missile, Torpedoes and even bombs!


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I don't think its the cost of the ordnance that's keeping them from being used. I've seen plenty of matches where ships never manage to use the single ordnance that they did purchase. I'm having second thoughts on the wisdom of making the second ordnance cheaper.

I think the problem with ordnance has to do with the action economy cost for an attack with relatively little improvement over a normal attack. The action economy cost is the need to TL while within range of being shot at. The relatively little improvement is because the TL is spent to shoot and cannot be used to improve the dice. An X-wing with a TL can fire its primary with 3 attack dice plus TL rerolls and expect almost as much damage as a proton torpedo.

I think making it possible for a ship with two of the same ordnance slots (bombers and Y's) to make a target lock at up to range 5 (before other actions become more important) if the target is in arc would be fun. Add to that the "spend isn't discard" fix so that when the ordnance hits it hits harder from target lock rerolls. Then even that X-wing will see a significant benefit from that proton torpedo!

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