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Artaxerxes2

I'm out

49 posts in this topic

Shadowspawn said:

Darthvegeta800 said:

 

What a 'splendid' community.
Barely anything is known so far and venom has been spat at FFG already.

 

 

 

I said it before and I'll say it again. Disagreeing with the direction that FFG is taking with a game that we love is well within our rights. Expressing our annoyance can hardly be seen as besmirching the community. 

I suppose we are all expected to just accept and be happy about the changes, even if we don't feel that way? 

 

Of course you can be upset about the changes but at this time do you really understand what the changes are? Have you read the books? Have you flipped through the 3e box? What do you really know? Wait till it comes out. If it is bad.....then offer your opinion. Thats well within your rights. A publisher should respect that its fans are so devoted to their game than rather than abandon it they express their unhappiness.

I just find it ridiculous that so many people are crying that the world is ending and they haven't seen the finished product. It really says some awful things about the rpg community. Maybe we should all revert back to trifold black and white 32 page adventures. Change is scary.

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@ Claven and Varnias Tybalt:

I actually included the stuff about piracy for balance in order to defend FFG on that front as the gimmicks look like a boardgame otherwise which there've been a lot of accusations about. RuneFang says that's not the case and he's certainly going to know what he's talking about. So what exactly is the point of custom dice then?

Bloody Stained Sunday's Best:

'''Wait till it comes out. If it is bad.....then offer your opinion.''

That's right kids. You have to shell out a hundred bucks before you even have the right to offer an opinion! Bend over and like it.

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Artaxerxes said:

Seriously...

2nd edition Tilea will be published but I'll be buggered if I can even afford this game let alone have the patience to bother with it

Please friend as soon as this is out tell me babeo.gif

Thanks

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Aldred Fellblade said:

@ Claven and Varnias Tybalt:

I actually included the stuff about piracy for balance in order to defend FFG on that front as the gimmicks look like a boardgame otherwise which there've been a lot of accusations about. RuneFang says that's not the case and he's certainly going to know what he's talking about. So what exactly is the point of custom dice then?

Bloody Stained Sunday's Best:

'''Wait till it comes out. If it is bad.....then offer your opinion.''

That's right kids. You have to shell out a hundred bucks before you even have the right to offer an opinion! Bend over and like it.

Aldred Fellblade said:

@ Claven and Varnias Tybalt:

I actually included the stuff about piracy for balance in order to defend FFG on that front as the gimmicks look like a boardgame otherwise which there've been a lot of accusations about. RuneFang says that's not the case and he's certainly going to know what he's talking about. So what exactly is the point of custom dice then?

Bloody Stained Sunday's Best:

'''Wait till it comes out. If it is bad.....then offer your opinion.''

That's right kids. You have to shell out a hundred bucks before you even have the right to offer an opinion! Bend over and like it.

 

I'm gonna go review some movies without watching them and then I'm gonna critique some restaurants without eating the food. I don't like their advertisement in the paper so their food probably stinks and I'm pretty sure I can craft an intelligent review because I saw the trailer and that's everything. Yep. You really got me on this one. Haven't you ever gone to a movie and said, "wow the trailer looked great but the movie blew...." or the flip side, "hey, I liked that film more than I thought I would."

Don't shell out the hundred bucks.....take the time to read other peoples reviews after the product comes out...... see how that works? AFTER..... when there is actually a product to **** or to love. If you don't trust other peoples reviews go to a game store and see if other people are playing. Usually they release bits from the books online so you can preview the product, no?

I dunno if this edition is going to suck or not but I am not going to make off the wall judgements until it comes out. I have enough faith in fantasy flight games to make a good product. If they don't...oh well. I'll play 2e. No problem. When 3e is released, your old books aren't going to combust.

ahh the hell with that. It is so much easier to spout off inflammatory nothings.... Change evil. Worship sun. Awww it comes in a box. They're trying to box me in! Everyone knows you can't roleplay in a box. Worse yet, you can't roleplay over the sound of all those dice rolling. I tried to describe how my character was going to slash a dark elf and all the gm could hear was the sound of 30 dice rolling on the table. This is crap!

back to cave paintings now....

 

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Your analogies are flawed. A movie with a bad preview will elicit negative opinions. The point of an advertisement is to ATTRACT customers. So either the marketing is bad, or the game is how its been portrayed.

Hellebor

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Hellebore said:

Your analogies are flawed. A movie with a bad preview will elicit negative opinions. The point of an advertisement is to ATTRACT customers. So either the marketing is bad, or the game is how its been portrayed.

Hellebor

The marketing sheet DID attract people.   Just not the ones who are afraid of change.

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CRasterImage said:

Hellebore said:

 

Your analogies are flawed. A movie with a bad preview will elicit negative opinions. The point of an advertisement is to ATTRACT customers. So either the marketing is bad, or the game is how its been portrayed.

Hellebor

 

 

The marketing sheet DID attract people.   Just not the ones who are afraid of change.

You mean people who aren't affraid to replace their entire gaming catalogue with a new set that's not compatable with it?

 

Hellebore

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 Hellebore said:

Your analogies are flawed. A movie with a bad preview will elicit negative opinions. The point of an advertisement is to ATTRACT customers. So either the marketing is bad, or the game is how its been portrayed.

Hellebor

My analogy is on target. Yes a movie with a bad preview may elicit a negative opinion but that doesn't mean it is a bad movie. You have to see the movie first to make that determination. So many people on this forums are knocking this game without playing it. Crying that its 4e hell and what not.

It is not suited to role playing!

Yes you can certainly say the preview is not good. You've seen the preview. You can judge the preview for what it is. But you can't say the game is no good. You haven't seen it. You haven't played it.  The advertisement could be bad for you.... for me... not so much. I like what I see and I may buy it. Don't mean because I like it, your feelings toward the preview is wrong.

You have every right to worry. The game is probably very special to you and its special to a lot of people. I get invested in games myself. It seems to me a lot of people are going a little to far. Express your worries but do it in a professional manner. More people, including ffg will probably listen and may tailor the next previews to discredit some of the myths.

You may very well be right. The game might blow. It might have all kinds of rules for restricting role playing. It might replace the GM with an automated adventure generator. It could use My Little Pony dolls to represent Chaos warriors. You might have to call ffg using a rotary phone in order to decide if your character can sneak past the city guards. Everytime your characters engage in a night time fight you might have to turn all the lights off in your house and read the dice with special FFG lowlight goggles. It might enact a system of dice rolls for every possible encounter..... or it might not. We don't really know.

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CRasterImage said:

Hellebore said:

 

Your analogies are flawed. A movie with a bad preview will elicit negative opinions. The point of an advertisement is to ATTRACT customers. So either the marketing is bad, or the game is how its been portrayed.

Hellebor

 

 

The marketing sheet DID attract people.   Just not the ones who are afraid of change.

 

Yep like me. And i put up the FFG post on the forum of the local shop. Apparently i'm not the only one drawn in by it.

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All that should be answered by the product description, that's the point of a product description. You don't sell a product, especially one as expensive as this, by NOT telling people what it does and hoping they'll buy it. The point is they know what the WFRP fan community is like, they know what 2nd ed is like and their first method of selling it to people was in a completely different direction.

 

Now had it been released as a seperate game rather than as a REPLACEMENT for 2nd ed, i doubt people would have so angry about it.

 

I'm not necessarily against this game, but i am leary of it BECAUSE of the way they chose to represent it which is different to the previous edition and not compatable with it. There will be no more material for 2nd ed and anything produced for 3rd ed will be presented in this form, which given the custom dice mechanics is nothing like 2nd and not compatable with it.

 

Hellebore

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Hellebore said:

You mean people who aren't affraid to replace their entire gaming catalogue with a new set that's not compatable with it?

 Hellebore

 

why do you have to replace your gaming library? Your old books still hold worlds of value. The fluff is the same. A good adventure is a good adventure. I own d&d books from every incarnation. I plan on running my group of 4e eberron players through a 2e Ravenloft adventure. Yea.... it takes a little work but its worth it.

I don't like the idea of buying a 3e book that has all the same fluff covering a region detailed in 2e but with new stats tacked on. That is a little dull....

If the new fluff books and adventures open up different things I'm excited. Again.... I'll reserve my decision for when the new supplements are released.

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Diriel said:

right now, none of us really know what the changes are and have nothing to really be upset or happy about.

Well I can think of one thing to be upset about straightaway: presumably there's not going to be a great deal coming out for 2nd edition anymore? I've always argued (since GW were still publishing the game)  that there is no need for a 3rd edition and yet, just four years after the last edition, here it is. What about a 2nd edition book on Elves, or Dwarfs, I mean, who decided doing the Skaven before the core races was a good idea? Now it looks like we'll never have these books. So, it seems to me that this is simply another pointless money spinner and one that won't be in anyway transferable from previous editions. It's true we have very little information about it but since it's entirely unnecessary anyway...

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Nollaig said:

What about a 2nd edition book on Elves, or Dwarfs, I mean, who decided doing the Skaven before the core races was a good idea?

To me a book on elves and dwarfs would have signalled more cash grab than a new edition. gran_risa.gif I think that releasing the Skaven book was brilliant. The Vampire book ... not so. Although the book is very good, there are other things that would have made more sense. Such as a more general book of undead, e.g.

/M

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MagnusSeter said:

 

To me a book on elves and dwarfs would have signalled more cash grab than a new edition. gran_risa.gif

Not so! Surely much of the appeal of WFRP is the Warhammer world itself? Many years have gone into fleshing ot out and there has been an awful lot of Dwarf lore in particular over the decades. So  a book dedicated to them would have made a lot of sense. There was a first edition book and it was very good, but not many people will be able to get their hands on that. No, moving on when so much was already left undone seems very premature to me and I suspect FFG will rue the decision.

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Nollaig said:

Surely much of the appeal of WFRP is the Warhammer world itself?

Yes, and the main appeal to me is the fact that it isn't a standard fantasy world. That is, I don't particularily need info on bog standard races such as elfs and dwarfs. happy.gif

/M

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Bloody Sunday's Best wrote:

 ''My analogy is on target. Yes a movie with a bad preview may elicit a negative opinion but that doesn't mean it is a bad movie. You have to see the movie first to make that determination. So many people on this forums are knocking this game without playing it. Crying that its 4e hell and what not.''

No it isn't. Previews are supposed to elicit a reaction, whether for movies or rpgs. They don't tell you the whole story by any means but they are supposed to provoke discussion of the product. If you had commented that people are jumping the gun with their judgements, as many others have said, I'd have wholeheartedly agreed with you. We don't know enough about the game yet, but we do know that it's something very different mechanically -which is bound to provoke a reaction. I even implied in my post that the 'oh no! not a boardgame!' terror was misplaced (and explained the implication in the following post).

What I objected to was your statement that people shouldn't express an opinion at all until after the product has been released. Dream on. Of course people can't make an informed judgement yet; we know virtually nothing other than that it'll be very different to its predecessors. It makes you sound like part of a marketing team seeking to prevent a negative buzz around their product. I wouldn't worry if I were you. FFG look to have been pretty smart on that front. They've gone with shock tactics so that from here on in everything will appear to get better.

 

 

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Aldred Fellblade said:

 ''My analogy is on target. Yes a movie with a bad preview may elicit a negative opinion but that doesn't mean it is a bad movie. You have to see the movie first to make that determination. So many people on this forums are knocking this game without playing it. Crying that its 4e hell and what not.''

No it isn't. Previews are supposed to elicit a reaction, whether for movies or rpgs. They don't tell you the whole story by any means but they are supposed to provoke discussion of the product. If you had commented that people are jumping the gun with their judgements, as many others have said, I'd have wholeheartedly agreed with you. We don't know enough about the game yet, but we do know that it's something very different mechanically -which is bound to provoke a reaction. I even implied in my post that the 'oh no! not a boardgame!' terror was misplaced (and explained the implication in the following post).

What I objected to was your statement that people shouldn't express an opinion at all until after the product has been released. Dream on. Of course people can't make an informed judgement yet; we know virtually nothing other than that it'll be very different to its predecessors. It makes you sound like part of a marketing team seeking to prevent a negative buzz around their product. I wouldn't worry if I were you. FFG look to have been pretty smart on that front. They've gone with shock tactics so that from here on in everything will appear to get better.

 

 

Maybe you missed my other posts or maybe I failed to be articulate enough, but my whole point was that people are jumping the gun with judgements. And worse than jumping the gun, their fears are spirialing to some sort of crazy froth that seems a little inane. The board game argument....the oh no it needs miniatures argument...... the its built to only support roll players..... the oh no they have forsaken the fans who loved Warhammer when they were a mere zygote to attract a younger hip crowd.....Betrayal at Judas' price! 30 dice.....30 pieces of silver. No coincidence!  

Yes, you can judge the preview. Yes, you can think the preview looks scary. Certainly you should express that but at some point the way people go about expressing their concern is no longer constructive. Just like the title of this thread...."I'm out." Why? Cause you saw a preview you didn't like? All I'm saying is wait till the product comes out before spouting the prophetic doom of the WFRP line. People should probably hold back on expressing an opinion about the final game until it comes out. They should express their opinion about the previews. I know its a minor split but in my opinion it matters a great deal. Hell.... if you wanna express your opinions about a game you've never played go ahead but don't talk in absolutes. Don't draw imaginary lines in the sand. You don't even know if the sand is on a beach or a desert yet.

you think the marketing team could give me a job? I'm unemployed. I'm great with positive spin. I could write speeches for a banana republic dictator.

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Hello,

Please forgive my bad english. As you can see, I don't post. But I read when I can. What I just saw on the site...disturbed me. I will no longer buy WFRP products, and I'm a little sad about it. 

Not because I don't like evolutions, or because I don't want to spend money. Just because what I liked in WFRP is now, and perhaps for some years, out of question.

I saw people saying that the only difference is a new way to play, that the fluff is the same, etc. 
My problem with that is, justement, on the fluff. From what I see in the announcement, the first books will only contains things that already exists. So, there is, at least for me, absolutely no interest to buy this new game, since what I wanted to find in the books and supplements was the interraction between Warhammer fluff and the game system, as well as new, undiscovered stories and details.

They were room for things like Lustria, Far-East, all the regions between the Old World and the Far-East, Arabia, etc. I'm a little sad. Don't tell me tings like "go read novels and WB books". It's not the same, since I don't especially search saga, heroes and such, but details and background for a universe I like. Don't tell me "nobody ask you to buy this game", or "play the 2nd edition if you want". I have the 2nd edition, but I won't have more of it, no new things to know on unexpected areas or historical background. And since I don't want to buy books for a new system which will use the same thing that existing books, I won't buy later books that will, perhaps, study new areas and background details. Just because I will have no interest in it, since I won't have the first rule books.

 

I find that it's a strange decision, but it's FFG's. I'm sorry for myself and for others, mais c'est comme ça. I just hope that FFG will, in future, make good games that will tease me, as Arkham Horror has done.

 

Sorry for this useless and full of mistakes post. But I wanted to say a word, too. Perhaps there will be interesting things in fandom creations. It would be good to have entire areas fanbook for the 2nd edition, as well as those who want to play the 3rd could have their books. :)

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Le Passant said:

 
I saw people saying that the only difference is a new way to play, that the fluff is the same, etc. 
My problem with that is, justement, on the fluff. From what I see in the announcement, the first books will only contains things that already exists. So, there is, at least for me, absolutely no interest to buy this new game, since what I wanted to find in the books and supplements was the interraction between Warhammer fluff and the game system, as well as new, undiscovered stories and details.

They were room for things like Lustria, Far-East, all the regions between the Old World and the Far-East, Arabia, etc. I'm a little sad. Don't tell me tings like "go read novels and WB books". It's not the same, since I don't especially search saga, heroes and such, but details and background for a universe I like. Don't tell me "nobody ask you to buy this game", or "play the 2nd edition if you want". I have the 2nd edition, but I won't have more of it, no new things to know on unexpected areas or historical background. And since I don't want to buy books for a new system which will use the same thing that existing books, I won't buy later books that will, perhaps, study new areas and background details. Just because I will have no interest in it, since I won't have the first rule books.

 

 

This is one of the better arguments against a new edition. I know there were a few other posters who agreed with this as well. I'm usually of the "oh well, don't play the game then" crowd but I can sympathize. The worst part of new editions is usually the perceived need of the game company to rerelease all of the core setting books. Obviously, this can be awfully dull for die hard players who already own the previous books. The argument I always heard releated to forgotten realms fluff was that as the game designers filled up the map and had to move further from core the reading audience purchased less books. Most people would buy a book about the Empire or Chaos because it is at the heart of the setting, only those people interested in Tilea or Lustria would buy those books as it is at the fringe of the setting. Before you attack me...... this is not my argument. Just one I've heard. I'm a completionist so I'll buy a book of fluff about a random island. I don't care. I'm voraciously feeble minded when it comes to book purchases.

Is there any way for FFG to address this properly? If they developed a product schedule that  was desgined to come out with one book that was basically a rewrite for 3e followed by a book that explored something left untouched in 2e, would that heal some of the rift? Just an idea. Don't know if it is feasible. Was 2e selling well? What prompted FFG to change editions? Anyone know?

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Blood Stained Sunday's Best said:

 Hellebore said:

 

Your analogies are flawed. A movie with a bad preview will elicit negative opinions. The point of an advertisement is to ATTRACT customers. So either the marketing is bad, or the game is how its been portrayed.

Hellebor

 

 

My analogy is on target. Yes a movie with a bad preview may elicit a negative opinion but that doesn't mean it is a bad movie. You have to see the movie first to make that determination. So many people on this forums are knocking this game without playing it. Crying that its 4e hell and what not.

It is not suited to role playing!

Yes you can certainly say the preview is not good. You've seen the preview. You can judge the preview for what it is. But you can't say the game is no good. You haven't seen it. You haven't played it.  The advertisement could be bad for you.... for me... not so much. I like what I see and I may buy it. Don't mean because I like it, your feelings toward the preview is wrong.

You have every right to worry. The game is probably very special to you and its special to a lot of people. I get invested in games myself. It seems to me a lot of people are going a little to far. Express your worries but do it in a professional manner. More people, including ffg will probably listen and may tailor the next previews to discredit some of the myths.

You may very well be right. The game might blow. It might have all kinds of rules for restricting role playing. It might replace the GM with an automated adventure generator. It could use My Little Pony dolls to represent Chaos warriors. You might have to call ffg using a rotary phone in order to decide if your character can sneak past the city guards. Everytime your characters engage in a night time fight you might have to turn all the lights off in your house and read the dice with special FFG lowlight goggles. It might enact a system of dice rolls for every possible encounter..... or it might not. We don't really know.

Depends.  If the movie is star wars, and it has a star wars theme, then watching it to review it is pretty necessary.

If it's a Batman sequel movie, but the main character is Blackbeard and it involves Piracy on the highseas with NO batman...even if it's called Batman, people will be pretty certain it's going to be a TERRIBLE batman movie before even watching it.  It may be a good movie, but it won't be Batman.  Hence a really BAD Batman movie, they should call it Blackbeard or something instead of using a name to try to sell their movie.

As long as we are using the Movie analogy.

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Blood Stained Sunday's Best said:

Le Passant said:

 

Most people would buy a book about the Empire or Chaos because it is at the heart of the setting, only those people interested in Tilea or Lustria would buy those books as it is at the fringe of the setting. Before you attack me...... this is not my argument. Just one I've heard. I'm a completionist so I'll buy a book of fluff about a random island. I don't care. I'm voraciously feeble minded when it comes to book purchases.

Well, in my case, I had no interest in re-buying an Empire/Chaos Books. 2nd edition are good on this. If I imagine myself looking at the book, I can't reasonnably think "wait, this is a NEW book ! With plenty of new and exclusive fluff in it !".

The argument is a double-edged sword. If people don't like Lustria or others, they would not buy a copy. But people whose are not interested in a (non-)new Imperial/Chaos book because it's basically the same, will not buy it either, nor the truly new things. Since things like Magic and Cults will be in the "first of new" books, there is a great risk that it will be, in regard of the fluff, the same as before, with other rules.  I'm sure I will be able to find a resumed version of the rules somewhere (not a pirated copy, but a resumed version, as it can exist for every game), and convert the fluff from the 2nd in the 3rd. So, 3rd is useless for me.

Plus, if the "heart of the setting" doesn't interest me because it's a revamp, I will never be interested buy the other books, even if the contains new and never seen before things.

 

It's all the difficulty of a new edition. And it's all the frustration an old buyer can know. And I bear no grudge against FFG. Just that this decision probably mark the end of my WFRP shopping.

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Hellebore said:

All that should be answered by the product description, that's the point of a product description. You don't sell a product, especially one as expensive as this, by NOT telling people what it does and hoping they'll buy it. The point is they know what the WFRP fan community is like, they know what 2nd ed is like and their first method of selling it to people was in a completely different direction.

 

Now had it been released as a seperate game rather than as a REPLACEMENT for 2nd ed, i doubt people would have so angry about it.

 

I'm not necessarily against this game, but i am leary of it BECAUSE of the way they chose to represent it which is different to the previous edition and not compatable with it. There will be no more material for 2nd ed and anything produced for 3rd ed will be presented in this form, which given the custom dice mechanics is nothing like 2nd and not compatable with it.

 

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

All that should be answered by the product description, that's the point of a product description. You don't sell a product, especially one as expensive as this, by NOT telling people what it does and hoping they'll buy it. The point is they know what the WFRP fan community is like, they know what 2nd ed is like and their first method of selling it to people was in a completely different direction.

 

Now had it been released as a seperate game rather than as a REPLACEMENT for 2nd ed, i doubt people would have so angry about it.

 

I'm not necessarily against this game, but i am leary of it BECAUSE of the way they chose to represent it which is different to the previous edition and not compatable with it. There will be no more material for 2nd ed and anything produced for 3rd ed will be presented in this form, which given the custom dice mechanics is nothing like 2nd and not compatable with it.

 

Hellebore

 

You know what, spot on.

IF IT IS DIFFERENT and a different game of course. 

If it's the same...I'll say this, THUS FAR THEIR MARKETING IS TERRIBLE.

If it's a different game, or so drastrically different as to be unrecognizable, if they had called it something else, I think I'd be one of the first to jump onto the boat to try to get the game.  If it's different and they try to publish it under the Warhammer name it comes off as CHEAP...because they are using name recognition NOT to sell Warhammer, but their own game design and rather than let it sink or swim on it's own merits, they choose to kill another game in favor of their own.

I'm all for Warhammer Quest to be republished, would love for that to happen (don't think it will), but not at the cost of taking another games spot (and as a side note Warhammer quest didn't use strange dice with symbols on it, at least not the copy I have) and to get a new and better copy.  Heck, I'm all for another Warhammer RPG, I hopped on the chance to get the Special, Leather versions of the WH40K RPG, though I missed it for DH, got it for RT. 

It's not the game itself, it's the ethical and moral principle of it.  It's like if Toyota decided to buy Ford, and then put out a new Mustang, but instead of being based on the Old Mustang, they instead decided to rename their 4runner and call it a Mustang.  Sure it has the same name, but completely different type of vehicle.  That would upset Car enthusiasts probably FAR more then what you've seen on these forums in relation to Warhammer (this is actually light in comparison to the bezerk things that would happen with the Car enthusiasts if anyone was ever crazy enough to do something like that).

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Blood Stained Sunday's Best said:

Was 2e selling well? What prompted FFG to change editions? Anyone know?

Some years back board games were doing really bad. For general audience they took too long, were too complex and not "cool". Board games evolved to more casual, fast paced, cool games. RPG have been doing bad for many years now in every front, that's why D&D had their evolution. To attract new customers, to break from the mold, to become the new "cool" thing.

Change is needed and hopefully will bring new customers. I just hope that they wont forget old customers. Give us new supplements!

Actually... wasnt there a rumor about dwarf sourcebook at some point... could FFG really be that sly..?

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