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nelsonbaggins

I wanted to go LCG, but I just can't.

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I have been a big fan of CCG games in the past, but the cost of building competitive decks is so ridiculous that isn't worth it and I abandoned them.  Then I discovered this new Warhammer Invasion game and thought FFG was onto something.  I learned all about their new LCG style of game and its philosophy, but I still think it doesn't go far enough to get me back into a collectible game.  It's totally awesome that there are no blind purchases and no rare hunts, but it still sucks that you need to buy 3 of everything (barring core sets I hope) to build competitive tourney decks.  Why not go all the way and just have LCGs work like board game expansions, where each new 30-50 dollar release has everything needed to play?  I'd be willing to spend between 30-50 bucks 2 or 3 times a year, but I can't afford the core set plus 30 bucks each month plus special releases.  You're talking 4 to 5 hundred dollars a year!  It makes MMOs look cheap by comparison!  I understand that it's a good business model to give people a crack-like addiction and continually pump them for money, but it seemed like the LCG phiosophy was a step in a better direction . . . just not a big enough step to get me hooked.

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Why does everything have to be about competitive tourney games gui%C3%B1o.gif ? I have the Call of Cthulhu Core Set (added my first and most likely only Asylum Pack today) and for casual play it's all you need. WH:I will be the same in that respect I think.

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 Because when it comes to ccg or lcg people like tournaments. That is why I play any of those kind of games. The weekly or bi- weekly tournament is fun. You build new decks and try them against other players. If I want to play a casual game I will stick with board games. I also play in board game tournaments but not every week. That the itch that ccgs fill. Sorry if you dont understand that. I am glad that you can spend money every month on a game just playing at home with your friends.

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My tournament experience (very little playing, mostly watching) is from Meccg (mostly online) and I can say tourneys in that game always bring out the cheesiest crapfest decks possible. There is barely any fun in even watching those games, they are just so... Participating feels even less appealing.

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You and your group can agree to play / organize singleton tourneys. Or have a shared card pool for tourneys. If you have a friend that likes order, and you like destruction more, for example - you can't play them in one deck, so you can each show up for your fave 'side' almost halfing the cost.

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Well, I will most likely only buy one of everything, that should be enough for casual play with deckbuilding. Especially as more and more packs are released.

 

Furthermore, with the draft feature of the game you can build decks from one pool. A great idea from FFG.

 

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From what I've heard about LCGs is you usually get 1-3 copies of a card in each set that comes out. Some cards you get 3 copies of, some only two, some only one. So to have a full play set you would probably have to buy 3 of each set that comes out, but most people will probably be happy with buying one or two. A set comes out that you don't need for your deck, don't buy it. A set comes out and the cards that only have one copy of you don't really need or want so you only need to buy one.

Overall I still think it's cheaper or just the same as playing a CCG, you just don't need to hunt the cards down. Normal CCGs have sets come out every three months. To get anywhere near a playset you would need to buy 3-4+ boxes of a set (most people probably don't even buy that much). Most CCGs boxes go for $55-$100. So even at 2 boxes per set at 4 sets a year your looking at $440-$800 per year for no where near a playset of everything. For an LCG for a full playset: Core set @ $40 each x3, and 11 months of the mini sets at $10 a peice x3 = $450 a year for a play set (and this is assuming you need or want to buy 3 of each set for a playset).

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A lot of this is going to depend on your local tournament scene. At our store, there are four of us that play Call of Cthulhu. I don't think anyone has bought more than one copy of any Asylum Pack yet, and we are playing league games which is like tournaments, but without the one night structure. I do feel that I am missing out on some cards, but at the same time I can either trade with the other guys if they are not using the cards I want, or just spend the money on an additional set.

You don't have to buy 3 of everything to be competitive, even on the larger scene. It all depends on how you build your deck.

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I actually think it is alot cheaper than a ccg. I dont know many people who only buy 2 boxes of a ccg. In raw deal I bought 6 boxes at $400 every set. That is about $1200-$1600 a year. Plus all the here and there packs you buy. In this game there are no bosster packs to buy that way, plus iit only comes to $90 every three months insted of $400.

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Compared to playing a CCG, it IS considerably cheaper. Try keeping up with Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh - in fact, Magic ripped off Yu-Gi-Oh and now has a new higher "mythic" level of rare, so the collector going for all the cards would have to drop even more money.

Over on the LCG side, $30 a month for 3x of 20 new cards isn't bad at all. In a game like AGOT with very sharply defined factions where choosing one is a bit more meaningful, you can even split the factions you're not interested in playing with a friend who is and lower the cost further.

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I now have two of the core sets (in which there were three of many copies of cards, 2 of some, and one of far fewer). Now I have three (or more) of most of the cards, and two of a very few. And of those I only have two of, there's only like two cards that I could possibly even want to have three of, and in that case only for strange niche decks that probably really arne't going to be that good.

But if 80 is too much to spend for 440 cards ( that's 8 starter packs in other games... which is like 60 x 8 = 480 cards and no where near complete set of the game...). I anticipate spending another 20 on the next expansion, perhaps 30 or 60 on the elf pack, and then another 20 on two of the expansion after that. That's 200 max... how many boxes does that buy you of M10 retail? Not even 3? Hardly at all the full set of the game (barely even one copy of each card I bet)?...

Ok. Sorry this customizable card game's sale's scheme isn't to your liking... IDK know what to tell you... play Anima tactics perhaps?

 

Game on! (PS I lovez this game!)

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From my previous experiences of opening AGoT and CoC core sets, I thought an Invasion core set would have mostly singletons with a few doubles and triples. Am I wrong?

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well, to have 40 cards with 25 different, we have two options:

-  10 single cards and 15 two copies 

-  15 one copy, 5 two copies and 5 three copies.

allies have 5 cards each, all singles,

and neutral are 3 of two copies and 6 of three copies (total 24)

 

all banner-units will be one copy, so i think this is your LCG to play with only one core (+packs)

i don't have the game, so i could be wrong

any case, compared to coc, with only one of each card in the core set, this is far better.

 

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orutra said:

any case, compared to coc, with only one of each card in the core set, this is far better.

Dunno, I have the tendency to have 3 core sets to have 3 of everything, this would mean I would have some spare cards instead of a larger card pool... ;)

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sure if you have three copies if the core set and three of each expansion your card pool is better, but refering to the original post, if you want to play with only one purchase of each (one core + 1 of each expansion), warhammer: invasion seems better suited than CoC or AGoT

In CoC, if you have one core set, the aditional copies of the best characters from the core set can be replaced by good or not so good characters from the asylums. But events from the core set (shotgun blast, small price to pay, etc) dont have replacement in the asylums.

 

 

pd: coc is a very good game with one copy

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vermillian said:


I now have two of the core sets (in which there were three of many copies of cards, 2 of some, and one of far fewer). Now I have three (or more) of most of the cards, and two of a very few. And of those I only have two of, there's only like two cards that I could possibly even want to have three of, and in that case only for strange niche decks that probably really arne't going to be that good. <snip>

vermillian said:

You are incorrect.

There are three of at about 3 cards for each faction. And then only one of about 3 cards for each faction...

Okay let me see if I get the card break down in the Core Set. I believe there are 40 prebuilt cards belonging to one of the four races. There are 25 different cards in the 40 card pool.

It seems you are telling me that there are quite a few triples and only a few singles. Three of about 3 cards is 3 x 3 = 9 cards and one of 3 is 3 cards. That is 12 cards out of 25. The rest are doubles (ie: six doubles and one single)?

Personally I would have much preferred a AGoT Core Set card composition, but I guess to get that RTS feel with only a single CS you need more doubles/triples than singles.

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Based on the spreadsheet posted on the BoardGameGeek, here are the quantities:

 

Chaos, Dwarf, Empire, and Orc

15 cards @ 1x

5 cards @ 2x

5 cards @ 3x

 

Dark Elf, High Elf

5 cards @ 1x

 

Neutral

10 cards @ 1x

1 card @ 2x

6 cards @ 3x

 

Draft Cards

1 card @ 2x

3 cards @ 6x

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in starter you find anything to make 50 card (legal) deck, and cards to make 4 different decks. They all you need to start, but ofc they not enough to win all and anything. With release of Core setox FFG releasing battle pack called "Scavenblight something" which contains 20 different cards, 10 of them are unique1copy per box, and 10th others are 3x copy of each card.

So spending 40 (50)$ you getting all you need to be on same level as others).

And after that ~10$ per month to get all new cards? Its sounds really cheap.

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I guess I just don't understand why companies are so reluctant to just release exactly what ccg fans are looking for without making them make so many purchases in order to complete a set (or set x4, etc.).  I'd love nothing more than to see a box with everything needed to play in one box.  And then release an expansion with everything needed as well.  That way, the game would go by sheer talent or ingenuity in deckbuilding rather than the guy/gal who buys the most wins. 

I suppose I should just stick to board games.  I've got Middle Earth Quest on the way right now and I can't wait.  It's cool that it has a card battling mechanic in a self contained set.

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Okay then these games may not be for you. These games are set so that with a minimal buy a player has every card he needs to be compatible, but that is not the same thing as having every card he needs to build any and every deck they may choose. The cards that come x1 will not always need to appear in a deck x3, heck some of the x3 cards may not need to appear in a deck at all. Depending on the faction and build you prefer there are some Battle Packs you may not even choose to purchase that will not negatively effect your deck or its win/loss ratio.

This kind of setup allows for the player to make their own decisions about what and how much to buy. Look at it this way... if a game company were to do what you proposed they would have to either raise the price of the core set, vastly reduce the number of cards in an expansion to have everything x3 to keep the price below that of the core set, or the expansions would essentially all be the same size and price of the core set.

*shrug* Honestly if the money is the problem then a gamer may not be able to afford it as a x3 game. If you want a more limited format, I suspect a League variant of the OP will be on its way shortly after the release of the Companion Set (maybe before). If it runs similar to the other LCG Leagues it will be a core set and two battle packs and only one battle pack is allowed to be purchased per month for the length of the League.

The LCG was never about giving every single player every single card. It was about giving every single player the choice of what to buy and how much while removing the blind luck factor, and making it an easy and affordable option to CCG's (but not to boardgames).

I can't assert this enough though, if you choose one faction make a single deck you shouldn't have to buy each pack x3, what doesn't come x3 you should be able to trade with a friend who is not playing your faction, and you really don't need to every card x3.

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I agree...

I'm an AGOT player and I've been a CoC one...

Some friends of mine that are getting in to AGOT buy just the Packs they need to complete the sets they REALLY need, depending on the house.

I'm interested in casual as well in some tournament events (I've never done a single tournament, yet ;-), and that's what I bought:

3x Core Set

1x Each Chapter pack

Then i purchased some "singles" to get what I needed.

I swear that I can build almost any deck without spending a lot of moneys and I like to build both funny and competitive decks (not tier 1 decks, but good ones).

And I'd add (confirming some DORMOUSE statements) that there are CP's that you're not going to buy, maybe because there are cards you don't want to have (ignoring any "collector's paranoia" ;-)).

 

LCG is a great chance to play a game in different ways, from casual to competitive...And the good thing is that the "one set only" philosophy, could still help you to be "competitive" if it's the thing you care about.

;-)

 

I have some money troubles, as lots of players year, but I know that if I want to jump in W.I. (and that's what I'm going to do), even in a "competitive" point of view, the only thing I've to do is to choose a couple of faction and buy just what I really need to play.

 

 

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NOTE: The terms CCG and LCG will be used interchangeably in the following:

I think the thing to consider when looking at the similarities and differences of a boardgame and an LCG is that, an LCG is a living game which evolves once a month. Boardgames are self-contained games usually expanded (once in a blue moon, not to be confused by Herr Knizia's card game) with another self-contained box full of features...this is where the two start to diverge. Stating differently, LCGs are building blocks to an incomplete game/picture/tapestry. The game will never be 'complete' until the line is disowned or the publisher goes down without selling it off. Every month you are allowed to buy a piece of this incomplete puzzle or three, which continues to create a new tapestry in your gaming group and/or your meta. It is entirely up to you to buy 1, 2, or 3 of the same pieces to this puzzle, but there is no correct purchase method to a puzzle in contant flux which does not ask to be built in a particular way. Just like owning 3 of the same brushes does make a great painter (although it can help)...Owning all three pieces does not make you the better gamer either if they do not support your faction or it builds on a theme you skipped out of. Ultimately, since there is no right answer when buying into this kind of game, your purchase habit should at least support the changing tapestry that only you can see in your mind’s eye: there is no spoon, remember.

I think it is an interesting comparison when looking at deck building (LCG buying) as a piece of gaming art. You can only seek a personal truth when art is fashioned…there is no absolute truth when it comes down to it. I think it is also fair to say that comparing boardgames and LCGs are like comparing apples and oranges: the costs for the involved LCG publisher is vastly different from a boardgame when you look at the amount of new designs, play testing, and art works pumped into this line every month. You can take this with a grain of salt since I'm not an industry insider nor do I know one.

Which brings us to another matter...If we see a set of 10 unique cards printed 3 times (a complete set by LCG reckoning) every 2-3 months instead of the current distribution model, would you buy each and every one of them as they are released? I don't know about you, but I'm not sure I would. Especially when there are games which would satisfy this undying (?!!) crave for new cards every month...the game would eventually lose steam for more than a few players.

If you should decide to continuously invest in the game...You are paying for an ever-changing variety…the variety which adds to a game that will forever (knock on wood) remain in flux and as a consequence: incomplete. The more variety you add, the more it's going to cost you. If you simpy must own all (or 3 of a set) it can quickly get very expensive...but do you need all of it (refer to Dormouse's post above before you answer this one)? Do you condone this kind of gaming habit? In the end, only you will have the answer to that question.
Having said that, good gaming.

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*applause*

Its just that I have the CHOICE to skip out on certain clumps of cards if I want. In a TCG this is more difficult, as I have to skip an entire 200 some card set which comes once every three months. With LCGs I could forseeably skip one months worth of stuff, and still get new cards the month after that. Skipping in an LCG makes me miss much LESS of a set than in a CCG, and me skipping doesn't keep me out of new cards for months, just about one month (depending on delays).

HOWEVER with LCGs you don't have as much of a trading or singles market as you do in CCGs... and board games you have to buy the WHOLE THING or nothing.

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The game looks fun enough with one copy of the core set and every battle pack in my opinion.I don't care much about deck building for now.I rather choose at random (or not) an army deck and deal with the cards in it.As long as your deck and the adversary's deck have the same amount of cards.

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