rules answers: arc & line of sight diagrams

[Drasnighta 26,832]

1)  Is any portion of the enemy Hull Zone within my Arc of Fire?  ANY Portion?

If Yes:

2)  Can a line be traced from the Yellow Dot of my Firing Zone to the Yellow Dot of his firing Zone without crossing any other part of the DEFENDERS Hull Zones?

If Yes:
 

3) Measure Range using the Closest Point of the Enemy Hull Zone THAT IS IN MY ARC OF FIRE.

 

...

 

Boom.  All Measurements Done.

 

 

 

 

All you need to account for now, is if the Yellow-to-Yellow goes over an Obstacle, -1 Die.

 

 

In application, its really not that complicated - it can be 'annoying' when that really wierd corner-case comes up, but 95% of the time, this stuff is straightforward and simple - it doesn't need complex theory...

[AegisGrimm 284]

Ok, that's how I have been doing things. Thanks, Dras. Just got confused with Figure 2 stating that the Corvette right side has line of sight to the Vic left arc (because of being able to draw line of sight over your own fire arc lines), when the point is then immediately (seemingly to me, anyway) moot as the Vic's left side is out of arc of the Corvette right side because the arc lines meet each other pretty much exactly point-to-point in that image.

To me, the back of the Victory would need to be rotated slightly closer to the corvette, or the entire ship moved back at least a small bit, for the forward line of the corvette's right arc to clear the back line of the Vic's left arc (putting it as a viable shot, whereas the image to me would show only a side-to-rear as possible, over the asteroids).

At least I think that's right?

Edited January 3, 2017 by Aegis

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Its a little odd - But Actually look at what Figure 2 is showing you.

 

Figure 2 is showing that The LINE OF SIGHT is clear between the Right Side of the Corvette, and the Left side of the ISD...

 

...  It makes no claim that the Right Side is IN ARC at the same time...  Merely demonstrating how the LOS would work in such a position.

 

But it would only be worth a **** if you had subsequently measured the Arc, and determined it to be in - even if it was by a sliver....  (And the Firing Arc Line itself does count, if you happen to hit it by THAT MUCH of a sliver)...

Edited January 3, 2017 by Drasnighta

[AegisGrimm 284]

Yeah, probably just a case of reading too much into too much information. Just glad my instincts/rules interpretations were right, as I am teaching someone new to mini's wargaming.

[Quarrel 631]

1)  Is any portion of the enemy Hull Zone within my Arc of Fire?  ANY Portion?

If Yes:

2)  Can a line be traced from the Yellow Dot of my Firing Zone to the Yellow Dot of his firing Zone without crossing any other part of the DEFENDERS Hull Zones?

If Yes:

 

3) Measure Range using the Closest Point of the Enemy Hull Zone THAT IS IN MY ARC OF FIRE.

...

 

Boom.  All Measurements Done.

Plus, also from the FAQ:

3a) If the range-measuring line crosses the wrong Enemy Hull Zone first, go back and change answer 2 to "no".

But, basically, that's it.

[Quarrel 631]

Just got confused with Figure 2 stating that the Corvette right side has line of sight to the Vic left arc (because of being able to draw line of sight over your own fire arc lines), when the point is then immediately (seemingly to me, anyway) moot as the Vic's left side is out of arc of the Corvette right side because the arc lines meet each other pretty much exactly point-to-point in that image.

The SD's left zone is in the Corvette's right arc. It's hard to show that without adding even more confusing lines to the diagram, though, or without shifting things so much that some of the other examples get ruined.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 

1)  Is any portion of the enemy Hull Zone within my Arc of Fire?  ANY Portion?

If Yes:

2)  Can a line be traced from the Yellow Dot of my Firing Zone to the Yellow Dot of his firing Zone without crossing any other part of the DEFENDERS Hull Zones?

If Yes:

 

3) Measure Range using the Closest Point of the Enemy Hull Zone THAT IS IN MY ARC OF FIRE.

...

 

Boom.  All Measurements Done.

Plus, also from the FAQ:

3a) If the range-measuring line crosses the wrong Enemy Hull Zone first, go back and change answer 2 to "no".

But, basically, that's it.

 

 

 

QUIT MESSING WITH MY 90% OF THE TIME

[Quarrel 631]

On 12/17/2016 at 6:38 PM, Quarrel said:

I'll see if I can get an official answer.

Official answer gotten!

Quote

 

...
“The ship’s entire plastic base blocks line of sight…” In this passage, that word should be replaced with “obstructs”, because a ship’s base does not deny line of sight. "
...

Michael Gernes
Game Producer

 

Plastic only obstructs. Only cardboard blocks.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

11 hours ago, Quarrel said:

Official answer gotten!

Plastic only obstructs. Only cardboard blocks.

Interesting. Can you copy/paste the entire email into:

 

[GhostofNobodyInParticular 2,497]

14 hours ago, Quarrel said:

Official answer gotten!

Plastic only obstructs. Only cardboard blocks.

I'm a bit confused by this. . . does that mean that if you were to attempt to shoot through a ship, the plastic would obstruct your shot, causing you to remove a die, but the cardboard would block LOS, meaning that you cannot see the target to continue attacking, and hence must cancel the attack?

[Quarrel 631]

6 hours ago, NobodyInParticular said:

I'm a bit confused by this. . . does that mean that if you were to attempt to shoot through a ship, the plastic would obstruct your shot, causing you to remove a die, but the cardboard would block LOS, meaning that you cannot see the target to continue attacking, and hence must cancel the attack?

Only ships between the attacker and target can obstruct a shot. Use the entire main body of plastic for that (but not the shield dials or the plastic on them).

Only the target's own other hull sections can block a shot. Use only the cardboard for that.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Quarrel
formatting

[GhostofNobodyInParticular 2,497]

1 hour ago, Quarrel said:

Only ships between the attacker and target can obstruct a shot. Use the entire main body of plastic for that (but not the shield dials or the plastic on them).

Only the target's own other hull sections can block a shot. Use only the cardboard for that.

Ah, I see. So the cardboard only blocks shots if it belongs to the ship which is attacking. Makes sense. Thanks.

[Green Knight 9,746]

7 hours ago, NobodyInParticular said:

Ah, I see. So the cardboard only blocks shots if it belongs to the ship which is attacking. Makes sense. Thanks.

No...that's not what's being said.

Hull zones on the DEFENDER block shots if you must trace LoS through them to get to the target hull zone.

[Quarrel 631]

7 hours ago, NobodyInParticular said:

Ah, I see. So the cardboard only blocks shots if it belongs to the ship which is attacking.

No. The attacker can't block its own shot. Only the target's other sections might do that. Check panel 2 of the diagram.

[GhostofNobodyInParticular 2,497]

3 hours ago, Quarrel said:

No. The attacker can't block its own shot. Only the target's other sections might do that. Check panel 2 of the diagram.

 

3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

No...that's not what's being said.

Hull zones on the DEFENDER block shots if you must trace LoS through them to get to the target hull zone.

Ah, I see, yes I misread that completely. Sorry. I assume that given the attacker doesn't block his own shot, then the only thing stopping him from attacking from a hull zone that is, say, on the opposite side of the ship is the firing arc? So for example if 3 MC80s are lined up as below perfectly parallel with each other (pointing the same way, so as to not get confused with which arc is which):

A  B  C

If A wants to shoot C, then:
1) A's right arc could shoot C's left, though it is obstructed by B and loses a die,
2) A's left arc has LOS to C's left hull zone, but can't shoot it because it is out of the firing arc, and
3) A's right does not have line of sight to C's right, because it is blocked by C's left?.

Hopefully that is understandable. . .

Anyways, thanks for the help.

[Green Knight 9,746]

6 minutes ago, NobodyInParticular said:

 

Ah, I see, yes I misread that completely. Sorry. I assume that given the attacker doesn't block his own shot, then the only thing stopping him from attacking from a hull zone that is, say, on the opposite side of the ship is the firing arc? So for example if 3 MC80s are lined up as below perfectly parallel with each other (pointing the same way, so as to not get confused with which arc is which):

A  B  C

If A wants to shoot C, then:
1) A's right arc could shoot C's left, though it is obstructed by B and loses a die,
2) A's left arc has LOS to C's left hull zone, but can't shoot it because it is out of the firing arc, and
3) A's right does not have line of sight to C's right, because it is blocked by C's left?.

Hopefully that is understandable. . .

Anyways, thanks for the help.

Quite correct.

[GhostofNobodyInParticular 2,497]

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

Quite correct.

Phew, finally!

Thank you once again.

[*wkusch 1]

 

I don't understand: what would be the point of firing arcs if you can shoot right through them?

Quote

The full album is here: http://imgur.com/a/fs1ni

I have only been playing the game for a few months (I love it), but, nevertheless, would it be odd to have a game component called "firing arc" which can be ignored? I've seen matches online wherein they play the way I have been playing. To play with the possibility of shooting through firing arcs really takes out a lot of the importance of navigation commands and the whole point of the measuring tool.

[*wkusch 1]

I don't understand the "remainder" section: ought a target be within a ships firing arc?

Or maybe I misunderstood the diagram

Edited April 30, 2017 by *wkusch
Wanted to be clearer

[*wkusch 1]

Oh, I understand now: even though it has line of sight, it cannot attack. Sorry, I just had to read the posts again.

[ShoutingMan 100]

Reading this thread, I'm over a year behind on a question. But I still don't understand it despite this discussion. So...

The Rules Reference on Measuring Firing Arc and Range:

Quote

To measure attack range from a ship, measure from the closest point of the attacking hull zone. To measure attack range to a ship, measure to the closest point of the defending hull zone. To measure attack range to or from a squadron, measure to or from the closest point of the squadron’s base.

 

The FAQ adds:

Quote

If attack range is measured through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending hull zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target

How is this rule possible? How do I "measure to the closest point of the defending hull zone" and end up measuring to the closest point on an adjacent hull zone? Examining the FAQ's "range example" figure on page 4, the defender's rear hull zone isn't even in the attacker's front arc, so why would LOS or Range even be measured? 

I started trying to play by this rule this weekend, and it was confusing to me and to @racknut. I was doubly confused because the wonderful firing guide from this thread doesn't to include this FAQ rule. (And maybe violates it in the lower left box of Determine Range: the Right Shooting Rear per the FAQ is possibly measured to the side arc and so doesn't have LOS). 

Appreciate any insights!

Edited February 1, 2018 by ShoutingMan

[Baltanok 558]

9 minutes ago, ShoutingMan said:

Reading this thread, I'm over a year behind on a question. But I still don't understand it despite this discussion. So...

The Rules Reference on Measuring Firing Arc and Range:

 

The FAQ adds:

How is this rule possible? How do I "measure to the closest point of the defending hull zone" and end up measuring to the closest point on an adjacent hull zone? Examining the FAQ's "range example" figure on page 4, the defender's rear hull zone isn't even in the attacker's front arc, so why would LOS or Range even be measured? 

I started trying to play by this rule this weekend, and it was confusing to me and to @racknut. I was doubly confused because the wonderful firing guide from this thread doesn't to include this FAQ rule. (And maybe violates it in the lower left box of Determine Range: the Right Shooting Rear per the FAQ is possibly measured to the side arc and so doesn't have LOS). 

Appreciate any insights!

Imagine just before the Rogue One hammerhead ram:  front left corner is closest to the defending ISDs right side.  It wants to shoot the ISD's front arc with it's front arc.

It's conceivable that the ramming Hammerhead could draw a line from yellow dot to yellow dot.  But the front left quarter is the closest range point, and it has to cross the side arc to get to the closest point of the defenders front arc.  So, no shooting the front arc.

[Quarrel 631]

15 hours ago, ShoutingMan said:

@racknutHow is this rule possible? How do I "measure to the closest point of the defending hull zone" and end up measuring to the closest point on an adjacent hull zone?

 

You don't. You never change which zone you measure to. If you shoot at the rear, you always measure to some part of the rear. But that measurement line could cross a different section first.

Here's what's going on in the FAQ example:

Quote

Examining the FAQ's "range example" figure on page 4, the defender's rear hull zone isn't even in the attacker's front arc,

Ahhhh. There's your problem.

A fragment of it is in arc. That fragment is entirely on the "inside" of the ship, though (to put it in informal terms). You're probably intuitively interpreting the rear as out-of-arc because none of its outside edges are within the arc angle. That's a common-sense way to think about it, but the rules don't say to do it that way. So the FAQ added another rule that ends up basically making it work this way anyway.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Quarrel

[Grumbleduke 810]

15 hours ago, ShoutingMan said:

How do I "measure to the closest point of the defending hull zone" and end up measuring to the closest point on an adjacent hull zone?

It only comes up in pretty weird situations. I think this would be one.

The CR90 is trying to attack the front hull zone of the ISD with its front hull zone. The CR90 appears to have Line of Sight (yellow dot to yellow dot - no other defender hull zones in the way). It has arc. It has range - measured from the closest point on the ISD's hull zone to the closest point on the CR90's.

But that range is measured through the ISD's left hull zone. So based on the FAQ, the CR90 doesn't actually have Line of Sight on the ISD's front - so no shot.

[ShoutingMan 100]

8 hours ago, Quarrel said:

Ahhhh. There's your problem.

A fragment of it is in arc. That fragment is entirely on the "inside" of the ship, though (to put it in informal terms). You're probably intuitively interpreting the rear as out-of-arc because none of its outside edges are within the arc angle. That's a common-sense way to think about it, but the rules don't say to do it that way. So the FAQ added another rule that ends up basically making it work this way anyway.

No, it's not.