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wjgo

Squadron command trumps engagement rules?

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Squadron command says a squadron can move and shoot.  But, an engaged squadron cannot.  In the rules, the word "cannot" is absolute.  But the squadron command is equally absolute.

 

In the Effects Timing section, its lists commands as an effect, specifically that a player cannot spend dials and tokens belonging to other ships and squadrons.  And in Effects it also says If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.  Engagement seems to describe itself as a "While" effect.  If engagement is not an effect, then the squadron command should certainly take precedent as an effect.

 

Have I been wrong in believing that engagement totally stops a squadron from moving and or shooting at anything?  It seems squadron command can overrule and engagement because it is an effect.

Edited by wjgo

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You only cannot move when engaged. You can still shoot if you play the squadron command.

And since you can move and shoot in any order, if you were to kill the squad you were engaged with you could then Move.

I understand this.  But please answer in regards to rules.  My post above, would be my response to you, quoting the rule book.  So, I would like to have a similar response.  Because I read it now as the squadron command is an effect, and the engagement is an effect, so the player decides.  Effects and Timing is page 5.  And when I read that, its clear to me that squadron command is a game effect.  Command is a When effect on page 3.  And Engagement page 6 is a While effect.

 

You could very well be right, but I believe my interpretation is strong.

Edited by wjgo

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Kage13 has it correct.

 

Yes, Engagement is a "While" effect. So "while" a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons it cannot move, shoot at other targets, etc. - even if a squadron command is played on it. The engagement effect doesn't end until there are no more enemy squadrons at distance 1. The Squadron command changes to activation order of the squadrons (so they activate in the ship phase instead of the squadron phase) but it doesn't bypass the fact that they're engaged.

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So your saying a squadron order could temporarily disregard the effect of an engagement allowing you to move away from it, without regard for enemy squadrons at distance 1?

No a squadron can never move when it's engaged.

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I am saying that at minimum the command is a game effect.  Just about whenever anything happens that involves an effect, the actual terminology of "effect" is used.  Its not used in Engagement.

 

Commands are certainly described as game effect, but, not given specific timing. as a whole.  The squadron command definitely lists the effects of that commands  I gave it a "When" earlier, but that was for when a token is issued.  Squadron command piques the After timing effect, and its certainly occurs the same time as engagement (if engagement is an effect)

 

It boils down to - how is Engagement an effect?  And if it is, what kind of effect is it and why would all other effects be subservient?  Even at bare knuckles, if Engagement is a game effect under "While," Effects and Timing is clear, A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.  That is saying a squadron cannot be engaged again, if it already is engaged because it must be resolved before it can occur again.  I am now inclined to believe that Engagement is not a game effect.  Its a rule set, and squadron command being a game effect with specific effects can break squadrons from engagement.  I believe the current sentiment is basically saying, if a card effect conflicts with game rules, the effect is not valid.

Edited by wjgo

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if Engagement is a game effect under "While," Effects and Timing is clear, A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.  That is saying a squadron cannot be engaged again, if it already is engaged because it must be resolved before it can occur again.

 

The squadron isn't being engaged again. It is continuing to be engaged while it has enemy squadrons nearby.

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wjgo, the rules lawyering is strong with you.

 

It's pretty clear that that then intention and spirit of the rules is that an engaged squadron cannot move.

 

I'm not sure what you are getting at with saying one thing is an effect and the other is not. Seems like a stretch to me. Engagement says "While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons". I don't see any room for arguing there. 

 

To speak to it in regards to the "While" effect definition you would have to define "instance of the event" to argue in any way that a squadron could move when it's engaged. To me, the instance of the event is the squadron being physically 1 distance or less away from an enemy squadron. That instance of that event does not end until that is no longer true. A "When" event occurs when a squadron token is played. There is nothing I can see that says you can ignore the ongoing instance of the "While" event (squadron being engaged) to override it with your new "When" event (Playing a squadron token). Therefore while playing the Token the squadron is still engaged and cannot be moved. 

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if Engagement is a game effect under "While," Effects and Timing is clear, A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.  That is saying a squadron cannot be engaged again, if it already is engaged because it must be resolved before it can occur again.

 

The squadron isn't being engaged again. It is continuing to be engaged while it has enemy squadrons nearby.

 

If another squadron moves close to it, the other two squadrons would have to resolve their engagement effect, which - could be an ongoing thing for 5 turns, before the third squadron is involved because the effect can not occur again for the two ships already engaged.  So, if Engagement is an effect because its starting word is "while" - it breaks itself.  Everything in this manual that is an effect, actually talks about the effect, and uses the word effect.  Engagement section does not.  I am not so sure if Engagement trumping Squadron command is an intention or spirit the game. 

Edited by wjgo

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I'm not necessarily promoting the fact that it's an "effect". Just trying to speak in the language you were using. I barely understood the lawyering as it was. Like I said, the rules make it pretty clear that an engaged squadron cannot move. Seems odd to me to even think something like a squadron command or token could break that. 

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I'm not necessarily promoting the fact that it's an "effect". Just trying to speak in the language you were using. I barely understood the lawyering as it was. Like I said, the rules make it pretty clear that an engaged squadron cannot move. Seems odd to me to even think something like a squadron command or token could break that. 

Commands are effects, and effects are supposed to break the normal rules.  And when I read Engagement, I see it as just normal rules.  The squadron command goes to great lengths to describe its effect.  It could have said chosen squadrons can activate twice, but can not attack or move more than once.  That's bland enough and falls within Engagement.  I honestly believe unless there is something from FFG, that Squadron commands are a way to let squadrons play.  Bombers can break through, and interceptors can catch them out of squadron command range.  But, I will play however my opponent would want to.

Edited by wjgo

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wjgo, I don't really understand what you are trying to say, but I think the rules are pretty clear.

 

RR: page 6: " An engaged squadron cannot move", "A squadron is no longer engaged if the last squadron engaged with it is destroyed."

 

So if an X-wing moves to within 1 of a TIE, they are both engaged and cannot move until one or the other is destroyed.  The Squardon Command does not change this.  However, let's say the two squadrons begin a turn engeaged. If a ship uses the Squadron Command on the X-wing and the X-wing is able to destory the TIE, the X-wing can then move because it "is not longer engaged if the last squadron engaged with it is destroyed" and the Squadron Command allows a ship to move and attack in either order. 

Edited by headache62

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Read squadron activation first.

There are 2 ways to activate a squadron.

During squadron phase activate a squadron and it can move or shoot.

Or

With a squadron command activate a squadron to move and shoot.

But while a squadron is engaged it cannot move.

You are reading way too much into it.

Squadron command is already super powerful. And Distance 1 is very small anyway.

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On Sunday, while playing a game, for a brief second I had a thought that was like what Wjgo 's trying to explain -

Can a Squadron command free my X-Wings from Engagement?

After a quick read of the rules my hopes where dashed and I had to leave them Engaged :-(

Didn't matter because they smashed the TIEs :-) However they didn't get to Proton the VSD :-(

Edited by Vetnor

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I think ships should be allowed to move if they maintain engagement.

For example, I am engaged with two ties, but there is a space station behind them. I should be able to move onto station if I maintain engagement with them both.

Just a malifaux player hoping to get back that precious hull point!

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Commands do supersede normal rules, but only the rules they specifically address. Squadron Command would have to specifically address engagement in order to "break" that rule. The only rules the command addresses is the ones regarding timing of squadron activation, and what they can do during that activation. Quite specifically they can activate during the ship phase, when the command is revealed, and they can now move and shoot in either order, instead of either/or during the squadron phase.

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Squadron command says a squadron can move and shoot.  But, an engaged squadron cannot.  In the rules, the word "cannot" is absolute.  But the squadron command is equally absolute.

 

In the Effects Timing section, its lists commands as an effect, specifically that a player cannot spend dials and tokens belonging to other ships and squadrons.  And in Effects it also says If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.  Engagement seems to describe itself as a "While" effect.  If engagement is not an effect, then the squadron command should certainly take precedent as an effect.

 

Have I been wrong in believing that engagement totally stops a squadron from moving and or shooting at anything?  It seems squadron command can overrule and engagement because it is an effect.

 

This is actually the problem with spelling out timing as clearly as FFG has in the rulebook. The more you explain, the more you manage to confuse completely clear concepts...there really is no solution except to put out FAQs.

 

The fundamental nature of rules means that when you have a restriction, it must naturally override a permission. So if a rule says you 'can' do something and another rule says you 'cannot' do something, then the 'cannot' must always override the 'can' unless the 'can' actually goes out of its way to say that it overrides the 'cannot'.

 

That is absolutely the ONLY way to write rules. So whether or not FFG explains if engagement is an effect or not, the fact is, being engaged means a squadron cannot move. The only way this can be overridden is by a rule that specifically says that it allows the squadron to move 'even when it is engaged'.

 

Since the 'squadron' command rules do not say anything like this, they do not override the restriction.

Edited by yakface

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I think ships should be allowed to move if they maintain engagement.

For example, I am engaged with two ties, but there is a space station behind them. I should be able to move onto station if I maintain engagement with them both.

Just a malifaux player hoping to get back that precious hull point!

 

On one hand, that seems like a reasonable tack-on to the rules.

 

On the other hand, it opens up a lot of tricksiness. Like moving (within your engagement bubble) so that a ship will overlap you and break the engagement. Or moving a squadron in a 1v1 engagement to engage and tie up a nearby unengaged enemy squadron. Or moving an engaged Heavy squadron so it can get a shot on a ship, when your opponent thought he'd successfully tied it up.

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Isn't there a rule somewhere that states if an effect says you cannot do something that that effect is absolute?

Yes. It's one of "The Golden Rules" on pg 1 of the RRG. "Cannot" supersedes "can" in all situations.

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Isn't there a rule somewhere that states if an effect says you cannot do something that that effect is absolute?

Yes. It's one of "The Golden Rules" on pg 1 of the RRG. "Cannot" supersedes "can" in all situations.

 

 

Yep but strangely it specifies that it applies to the word on 'cards', so it leaves some people to think that it doesn't apply in any other situation (which it still does, just by the fundamental nature of how rules are written...it didn't really need to be specified).

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