[Skirmish] Timing "Start of a Round"

[Budmilka_fr 3]

Hello,

 

I have a question about timing, I'd explain with an example :

 

In a Skirmish Game, Player A gives player B the initiative token at the end of a Round.

Then, at the start of the next round, player B is the active player and decides to play a Command card that says "Use at the start of a Round" ("Overdrive" for example).

Then, player A decides to play a card at the start of a Round ("Take Initiative").

Then player B has also the opportunity to play another card at the start of a Round (Take Initiative").

 

Is that correct ? Should players alternate their actions or should players play all their cards at the same time for the same trigger (start of a round), and then the active player decides the order ?

 

Thank you

[nungunz 221]

You can't play Take Initiative after someone else has played Take Initiative.  Ruling is in the FAQ along with an explanation.

[Budmilka_fr 3]

In the FAQ it is said you can't play Take Init because you passed the opportunity to play a card at the start of a round.

 

In my example I did not pass (I played Overdrive), then my opponent played Take Init. So can I play Take Init after that or should I play it at the same moment I played Overdrive ?

[Bolder 1]

Change this line to read something else other than Take Initiative

 

"Then player B has also the opportunity to play another card at the start of a Round (Take Initiative")."

 

Find another card to use in your example because it's gonna throw people off with the intent of your question because you can't play take initiative after a take initiative regardless if its the first card played or the 2nd card played.

 

People are gonna get hung up on this. Use the example of the card "cover fire" or something.

 

Sorry I couldn't help with you actual question

[Jonnyb815 131]

The player with init plays cards first at the start of the round then it passes to your opp to play start of round cards. Once they are done playing start of round cards they cant be played again during that round. The reason why you can't play Take init after they play it is because you went first playing cards and cant play first of round cards after that. This is what the FAQ is getting at its because of timing rules.

 

Also Take init says you claim the token since you claimed the token at the end of the round last turn. You can't claim something you have. There is nothing saying you can't play Take init but nothing will happen.

 

So you need to play take init when you  play Overdrive but the card will have no effect since you claimed the token at the end of the round last turn. You can trigger more than one card during your start of round action.

 

These terms are under timing pg 3 and claim pg 8 in the rules section.

 

Here is a player made timing table to understand better when things can be played.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Jonnyb815

[Bolder 1]

The player with init plays cards first at the start of the round then it passes to your opp to play start of round cards. Once they are done playing start of round cards they cant be played again during that round.

The reason why you can't play Take init after they play it is because you went first playing cards and cant play first of round cards after that. This is what the FAQ is getting at its because of timing rules.

 

Also Take init says you claim the token since you claimed the token at the end of the round last turn. You can't claim something you have. There is nothing saying you can't play Take init but nothing will happen.

 

Where is it defined that the initiative player plays all cards and then the other player?

[Jonnyb815 131]

Look up timing ppg 3 and ppg 9 under conflicts

 

I agree its not clear that you cant go back and forth but its never stated and the dev have confirmed  this in the FAQ under take init this can't happen. Hopefully in the future FFG come out with a good chart that clears this up and states it better in the FAQ. I have emailed them that Timing rules need to be better stated and that there needs to be a timing structure like with other games they own SWLCG and X-wing.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Jonnyb815

[Bolder 1]

While I got your attention here and you linked that timing chart by a player, do you agree with 3.1/3.2? Does the attacking player always reroll first or does the the player with initiative reroll first based on the conflict in a skirmish ruling

[Jonnyb815 131]

While I got your attention here and you linked that timing chart by a player, do you agree with 3.1/3.2? Does the attacking player always reroll first or does the the player with initiative reroll first based on the conflict in a skirmish ruling

No during an attack its attacker then defender look under conflicts pg 9. I would rule that if its anything other than attack phase its init that would kick in for timing rules.

It does make sense of how it works but thats odds there are two different timing rules.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Jonnyb815

[Hida77 951]

I agree with OP, this needs to be clarified.  You cannot make a ruling on it with any certainty.  

 

If I were ruling, I would say that you could play the Take and get Init back, but that is only because nothing about the chain of events should cause you to be unable to play it, but that is a strictly subjective ruling.

 

the entire timing structure for IA needs to be clearly defined.  The player-made chart is nice, but hardly official.

[Bolder 1]

 

While I got your attention here and you linked that timing chart by a player, do you agree with 3.1/3.2? Does the attacking player always reroll first or does the the player with initiative reroll first based on the conflict in a skirmish ruling

No during an attack its attacker then defender look under conflicts pg 9. I would rule that if its anything other than attack phase its init that would kick in for timing rules.

It does make sense of how it works but thats odds there are two different timing rules.

 

Good Call, I bypassed the first set of sentence under conflict, and went directly to conflicts in skirmish

[Jonnyb815 131]

I added all the info below and lets what you guys think the rule should be now?

Edited April 6, 2015 by Jonnyb815

[Jonnyb815 131]

I get this rule isn't offical because it isn't in the FAQ but it backs up with what Claim says in the RG. Then read what Conflict and Timing says its pretty clear to me what the rule is when it comes to timing and what claim is. I think the FAQ backs up that the timing/conflicts is not a phase and just a one time thing. Below are all the terms.

 

Rules Question:
For the skirmish Can you play take init the command card even though you have the init token? Not sure because of the word claim Thanks

 

Answer:

You technically could play it, but it would have no effect since “claiming” the token would remove it from its current location—your play area—and immediately place it right back where it was.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Assistant Board Game Manager
Fantasy Flight Games

 

FAQ says this about Take Init:

Q: In a skirmish, if my opponent plays “Take Initiative,” can I

play my own copy of “Take Initiative” to counteract it?

A: No. Your timing window to play cards “at the start of the

round” would have passed (see “Conflicts in a Skirmish” in the

Rules Reference Guide).

 

Then read what Timing rules say on page 3:

 

Numerous game effects have the possibility of triggering at the

same time. If this occurs, use the following to determine the order

in which these effects are resolved:

In a campaign, resolve mission rules first, followed by effects

triggered by the Imperial player, then effects triggered by Rebel

players.

In a skirmish, resolve mission rules first, followed by effects

triggered by the player with initiative, then effects triggered by his

opponent.

During an attack, in both a campaign and a skirmish, resolve

mission rules first, followed by effects triggered by the attacker,

then effects triggered by the defender.

For additional information on timing conflicts, see “Conflicts”

 

Then Conflicts say this on page 9:

During a skirmish, mission rules are resolved first, followed

by effects from the player with initiative, then effects from his

opponent.

•

If multiple mission rules would resolve at the same time, the

player with initiative decides the order of resolution.

 

Claim says this: from page 8

When a player claims a token or component, he places it in his play

area. The effect of claiming a token is explained in the mission’s

rules.

•

At the end of a mission, all claimed tokens are returned to the

game box.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Jonnyb815

[Jonnyb815 131]

With all the Terms spelled out what your guys thoughts of how this should be ruled? I think its pretty cut and dry at what the rule should be but its clear others read the rules different than me.

Post 5 are my thoughts on the topic.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Jonnyb815

[Budmilka_fr 3]

That would mean the first player (in Skirmish game) has to play all his "at the start of a round" effects, resolve them in any order of his choice, and then his opponent can play his and trigger them.

 

So with my example I can (as first player) :

 

 - play Overdrive and Take Init, resolve it (Overdrive becomes a constant effect and Take Init is useless), then my opponent plays Take Init and claims the FP token.

 

I can also :

 

 - play Overdrive, resolve it (Overdrive becomes a constant effect), then my opponent plays Take Init and claims the FP token. IN that case, I cannot play Take Init because I passed the opportunity to play it.

[Jonnyb815 131]

That would mean the first player (in Skirmish game) has to play all his "at the start of a round" effects, resolve them in any order of his choice, and then his opponent can play his and trigger them.

 

So with my example I can (as first player) :

 

 - play Overdrive and Take Init, resolve it (Overdrive becomes a constant effect and Take Init is useless), then my opponent plays Take Init and claims the FP token.

 

I can also :

 

 - play Overdrive, resolve it (Overdrive becomes a constant effect), then my opponent plays Take Init and claims the FP token. IN that case, I cannot play Take Init because I passed the opportunity to play it.

This is what I think the Dev want to happen but again its not very clear without digging and that is not good for the game. I really hope this gets cleared up.

[DarkJodo 128]

the entire timing structure for IA needs to be clearly defined.  The player-made chart is nice, but hardly official.

 

Everything in that timing chart came directly from the rules and reference guides.

 

While I got your attention here and you linked that timing chart by a player, do you agree with 3.1/3.2? Does the attacking player always reroll first or does the the player with initiative reroll first based on the conflict in a skirmish ruling

 

During the Reroll phase, both players have an opportunity to trigger abilities that allow you to reroll dice. Since those abilities trigger simultaneously, attackers resolve first, then defenders, per timing rules in rules ref.

[Jonnyb815 131]

 

the entire timing structure for IA needs to be clearly defined.  The player-made chart is nice, but hardly official.

 

Everything in that timing chart came directly from the rules and reference guides.

 

While I got your attention here and you linked that timing chart by a player, do you agree with 3.1/3.2? Does the attacking player always reroll first or does the the player with initiative reroll first based on the conflict in a skirmish ruling

 

During the Reroll phase, both players have an opportunity to trigger abilities that allow you to reroll dice. Since those abilities trigger simultaneously, attackers resolve first, then defenders, per timing rules in rules ref.

 

Anyway you could add pg numbers so a TO can go to the direct source if needed.

[Stromboli 99]

If you have initiative and the other guy plays "take initiative", there is nothing you can do about it. The card is not called " keep initiative". You could play yours first at which point you claim the token you already have at which point his card resolves and takes it from you... So, all you have done is lost the card and still lose initiative. In the future there may be a card that allows a leader to take it back or something, but right now that card is designed to take initiative away from the person who has it at the cost of exhausting a deployment card.

There has to be an order of resolving things like this, and there is, and it is clear... Pretending its not clear is just because you don't like the answer. A game has to have an order of resolving conflicting timing issues... This game has it and people have to learn to accept that "take initiative" does just that... Its potentially game changing but only 1 of 15 cards and is very situational. You may never need it, when you do, you may not be able to play it due to the exhausting of a deployment group. But when you have the card and the time is right, it can be amazing... Game winning....

You always have the option of putting it in your deck, and maybe the stars line up for you instead of him.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Stromboli