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ColArana

Advice for getting the "perfect" character?

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Savage worlds should be quick to.

 

Wait, why would you want to play an inteligent fighter? So you can have your character hurl witty remarks at his oponents? :)

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for playing against type and not every fighter is a barbarian, but if there is one universe in wich I'd go full on full berzerker chrono gladiator with the cognitive part of his brain replaced with a chainblade, then it would be the 40k universe.

This is why you play an intelligent fighter.

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Wait, why would you want to play an inteligent fighter? So you can have your character hurl witty remarks at his oponents? :)

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for playing against type and not every fighter is a barbarian, but if there is one universe in wich I'd go full on full berzerker chrono gladiator with the cognitive part of his brain replaced with a chainblade, then it would be the 40k universe.

 

Can't speak for the guy, but I'd wager a character only useful in fights, and gets shuffled off onto the sidelines would be a bit boring for him to play, since combat is MAYBE around 1/4th of what we actually do in our campaigns, the rest is figuring things out, skulking about and charming/bribing the right people. He wants to be able to do something, and perhaps even come up with some cunning tactic in battle (the Order of the Stick reference is probably very prudent).

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Ah I see now, makes sense when you think about it. Having a fighter with some brains would also help if the smart guy on the team get's knocked out. Especially if your GM insists on having you make INT tests to come up with stuff. Otherwise you get stuff like Half orc barbarian (in D&D) inventing gunpowder and stuff. :)

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An intelligent fighter -- like a military officer, a tactician.

 

Maybe Shrine World --> Imperial Guard --> Sage.

 

Only problem with that, is it provides literally NO combative aptitudes. For whatever reason, FFG decided the Imperial Guard background should not provide combative aptitudes. So ironically, having an Imperial Guard background in this doesn't actually give you the ability to fight. It provides you the aptitudes to either boss others around (fair enough) or... not get lost... oookay.... (I realize I'm oversimplifying it).

 

But we have already established my friend's character is a doomed concept anyways. That said in DH1 he ran a similar-ish character (in truth he ran a Commander branch Guardsman that he worked into a giant, sarcastic, self-absorbed "Jack of All Trades" character, who was always ready to inform the rest of the party they were idiots and propose a better plan). He probably wanted to do more of an expansion of that motif, since he was largely FORCED into the Jack-of-All Trades role in the party, due to his original plan of being the party Face (our party was originally a gun-toting Assassin and a melee oriented Psyker) flopping on its face when the Assassin died around Rank 6, and the player decided to play a Fellowship-heavy Scum. 

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Having a Shrine World background AND Sage, you can pick an extra aptitude since the Willpower aptitude came up twice.

 

So you can pick a stat Aptitude like Ballistic Skill. 

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Or go with VoidBorn/ForgeWorld -> Imperial Guard -> Warrior and you have Intelligence to fuel the relevant skills/talents.

 

Oh no, that will be just 1 aptitude right?

 

Part of the balance I'm afraid, you simply can't be a lean mean fighting machine AND at the same time be a super smart/knowledgeable being.

Edited by Gridash

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An intelligent fighter -- like a military officer, a tactician.

 

Maybe Shrine World --> Imperial Guard --> Sage.

 

Only problem with that, is it provides literally NO combative aptitudes. For whatever reason, FFG decided the Imperial Guard background should not provide combative aptitudes. So ironically, having an Imperial Guard background in this doesn't actually give you the ability to fight. It provides you the aptitudes to either boss others around (fair enough) or... not get lost... oookay.... (I realize I'm oversimplifying it).

 

[...]

 

 

Also remember that, while it's true no combative aptitudes are provided and thus you'll have to get those separately if you want to go that way, you DO start with a Weapon Training talent (getting rid of that -20 penalty when firing weapons) and a Background bonus to boost your attacks along with the necessary combat equipment (and Command/Athletics/Medicae/Operate/Navigation representing your military training).

 

All Imperial Guard personnel are able to fire a gun just fine, but not all are experts at it because it might not have been/be their main job. I think that's just fine. More often than not, officers became officers just because they're part of a noble family, they didn't start out as grunts.

 

Honestly, I love this system.

Edited by Gridash

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Or go with VoidBorn/ForgeWorld -> Imperial Guard -> Warrior and you have Intelligence to fuel the relevant skills/talents.

 

Oh no, that will be just 1 aptitude right?

 

Part of the balance I'm afraid, you simply can't be a lean mean fighting machine AND at the same time be a super smart/knowledgeable being.

 

I can appreciate the notion that a character cannot be good at everything and that's fine. If it was possible to make a character that was very good at everything that's all anyone would pick. Fine. However I feel that shouldn't necessarily exclude a character with vastly differing skillsets. In DH1, you had careers like the Scum and Arbitrator, who were both effective on and off the battlefield. Scum could smooth talk their way right into a planetary governor's house, and still put up a pretty good fight when pressed. Arbitrators were smart enough to be party heads so-to-speak, while still packing the firepower and durability to be veritable tanks in combat. 

 

Not that you can't pull off similar things with this system, but it's a little harder to do, I find.

 

Incidentally, for such a character as my friend wants I think you'd get closer if you dodged the Imperial Guard background as it gives no "valuable" or "useful" aptitudes towards making an intellectual fighter, as it provides neither combative aptitudes nor intelligence aptitudes. The closest I managed to get was a Voidborn/Forgeworld Arbitrator Assassin, which at least gave him the Ballistic Skill and Agility he wanted, while keeping his Intelligence at at least a 250. His qualm was that he wanted his character coming from a feral world background, and intended to play them off more as a cunning hunter style (hence intelligence would be derived from their experience tracking, planning, etc.)

 

 

EDIT: I take it back. turns out it can be done with the Adeptus Mechanicus background, as that provides a Knowledge Aptitude. So a Forgeworld/Voidborn Mechanicus Assassin or Desperado could get the stat spread he wants. Just a shame they don't mesh with his idea at all.

Edited by ColArana

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Oh okay, why not go for:

 

Feral World -> Outcast (Field Craft) -> Assassin (Pick Ballistic skill and Intelligence)

 

Then you have everything.

 

Aptitudes: Toughness, Fieldcraft, Agility, Ballistic Skill, Intelligence, Finesse, Perception

 

Perfect hunter with a Feral World background and Intelligence.

 

This is a nice tool btw:

http://heresycreator.96.lt/

Edited by Gridash

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Or go with VoidBorn/ForgeWorld -> Imperial Guard -> Warrior and you have Intelligence to fuel the relevant skills/talents.

 

Oh no, that will be just 1 aptitude right?

 

Part of the balance I'm afraid, you simply can't be a lean mean fighting machine AND at the same time be a super smart/knowledgeable being.

 

I can appreciate the notion that a character cannot be good at everything and that's fine. If it was possible to make a character that was very good at everything that's all anyone would pick. Fine. However I feel that shouldn't necessarily exclude a character with vastly differing skillsets. In DH1, you had careers like the Scum and Arbitrator, who were both effective on and off the battlefield. Scum could smooth talk their way right into a planetary governor's house, and still put up a pretty good fight when pressed. Arbitrators were smart enough to be party heads so-to-speak, while still packing the firepower and durability to be veritable tanks in combat. 

 

Not that you can't pull off similar things with this system, but it's a little harder to do, I find.

 

Incidentally, for such a character as my friend wants I think you'd get closer if you dodged the Imperial Guard background as it gives no "valuable" or "useful" aptitudes towards making an intellectual fighter, as it provides neither combative aptitudes nor intelligence aptitudes. The closest I managed to get was a Voidborn/Forgeworld Arbitrator Assassin, which at least gave him the Ballistic Skill and Agility he wanted, while keeping his Intelligence at at least a 250. His qualm was that he wanted his character coming from a feral world background, and intended to play them off more as a cunning hunter style (hence intelligence would be derived from their experience tracking, planning, etc.)

 

 

EDIT: I take it back. turns out it can be done with the Adeptus Mechanicus background, as that provides a Knowledge Aptitude. So a Forgeworld/Voidborn Mechanicus Assassin or Desperado could get the stat spread he wants. Just a shame they don't mesh with his idea at all.

 

 

 

Remember that Roles especially are more your approach to things, NOT what you are.  So there's a bit more to it than that.  Mechanicus might be the one thing difficult to jive, but do bring up Skitarii... who knows, he might find them cool?

 

Also, and I can't stress this enough. UNLIKE 1e, just because you don't have an aptitude doesn't mean you can't buy it up.  Odds are everyone will eventually be buying stuff from the most expensive side of things.  But buying from the other stuff makes that more tenable.  What this means is you can still get Talents and such relatively easily to fill in gaps.  And that makes that "Fighty Scholar" idea a lot more tenable, just a few decent talents to be good at one sort of weapon and voila, it works.  And then you can get back to focusing on your in aptitude discount stuff.

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Also having a skill merely trained (even when having only 1 matching aptitude or even none) gives you:

- a difference of +20 instead of just +10 since the penalty gets removed

- you're able to provide assistence to other characters whom attempt a particular skill check. So despite not being the best at a certain skill or subset of skills, you're still making a difference in your group.

 

People tend to underestimate the skills that you start with in case of particular backgrounds. You don't need the actual aptitudes in order to be useful.

Edited by Gridash

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Also, and I can't stress this enough. UNLIKE 1e, just because you don't have an aptitude doesn't mean you can't buy it up. 

 

 

Oh for ****'s sake. This was not true in 1e. Get your head out of your ass and learn to communicate with your GM.

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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Also, and I can't stress this enough. UNLIKE 1e, just because you don't have an aptitude doesn't mean you can't buy it up. 

 

 

Oh for ****'s sake. This was not true in 1e. Get your head out of your ass and learn to communicate with your GM.

 

I remember I had to struggle with the necessity of giving a Tech Priest player of mine the ability to by Fellowship as elite advances, as he was the only member of the party who was ever even remotely trying to interact with other NPCs. But he presented a compelling argument, hardly broke his character, and at least allowed for more interesting gameplay.

 

And then years later they released Lathe Worlds with that one Tech Priest rank 1 option that did just that and I felt vindicated giving the player that option at the time, and at least my solution wasn't power creep.

 

But definitely, the concept of the elite advance far too often seems to be neglected in how people manage their games.

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Also, and I can't stress this enough. UNLIKE 1e, just because you don't have an aptitude doesn't mean you can't buy it up. 

 

 

Oh for ****'s sake. This was not true in 1e. Get your head out of your ass and learn to communicate with your GM.

 

 

Many GMs are very "by the book" and don't like to go that far.  Plus, things like a skil or talent you can't get until Rank 8 is just ridiculous and even more unlikely to be allowed as an Elite Advance.

 

I strictly maintain that Elite Advances, those requiring negotiating with the GM, are a fault of the system.   They were a crutch thrown in after complaints about flexibility, not the answer.  And even then unlikely to be allowed if your talent shows up 5k XP later in the talent tree somewhere.  So no, my head is not somewhere dark and smelly, I genuinely believe that was a flawed, stupid game design, as I do anything that requires 'negotiating with a GM'' - EVERY GM is different, and especially one you might not know well and only play with every other week at a gaming store makes it hard to do anything.

 

Hell, my last DH 1e GM wouldn't even let us PICK OUR CHARACTERS.  They were a great GM, but we HAD to roll them randomly, even if stats ended up not matching up well and we doubled up on something (Indeed, we had 2 guardsmen and 2 tech priests... and my Arbites when I started due to the vagaries of the roll).  GM was great otherwise, but was never comfortable with things not directly in the book, and even Elite Advances are "At GM discression" and "Optional"

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Also, and I can't stress this enough. UNLIKE 1e, just because you don't have an aptitude doesn't mean you can't buy it up. 

 

 

Oh for ****'s sake. This was not true in 1e. Get your head out of your ass and learn to communicate with your GM.

 

To some people it makes a huge difference. Most sensible GMs allowed   PCs to get elite advances to get skills they wanted earlier than usual/ that they normally couldn't have gotten. But the fact that the rules said "You have to ask your GM" meant more than enough GMs shook their heads like stubborn children and said no, you can't get that because the rules don't say you can. I've played with enough GMs who do both to know who was right, making it this way just means GMs can't use the book as a shield against common sense.

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And in turn, this advancement system puts DMs on the spot to the point I refuse to run it after having two people show up with fresh chars that started with previously rank 8ish talents... One would think that if one takes agency out of the hand of the game master, one might include some checks and balances against munchkinism.

 

In addendum, in my personal experience, most DM issues that can't be solved via dialogue can be solved by grabbing a few players and running things yourself.

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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And so often the reply to this sort of thing is 'that's a bad GM' - which is another reason I hate "At GM's discression" rules like Elite Advances.   For some of us, in less populous areas, there might only BE a single person willing to run said game.  And again, they might be a great storyteller, and fun person otherwise.  Just prefer things to be as by the book as possible because they don't like messing with the rules.

 

Though in my case, I've seen far more who prefer to stick to 'by the book' than those who see it as 'common sense'

Edited by Dulahan

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You're not getting me. Run it yourself. DMing is not hard. It's really just a bit of trial and error and a lot of learning to improvise and create the appearence of something logical for the most part. A simple solution to not enough GMs can be as easy as "everybody has to GM". We do that a lot in Shadowrun, where a fluent group composition is plausible, but the same can go for an inquisitorial team. Menial ***** task no one wants to do? It's okay, the PC of the person whose turn it is to DM does it. The rest can get in on the action. Eventually, someone will want to try a longer plot and run a couple sessions in a row, and you'll have a fluid back and forth where everyone gets to play. In my experience, you'll also have a lot less arguments about rules etc., because there's no player/GM divide, and what goes around tends to come around.

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And in turn, this advancement system puts DMs on the spot to the point I refuse to run it after having two people show up with fresh chars that started with previously rank 8ish talents... One would think that if one takes agency out of the hand of the game master, one might include some checks and balances against munchkinism.

 

In addendum, in my personal experience, most DM issues that can't be solved via dialogue can be solved by grabbing a few players and running things yourself.

 

 

The heck?  In a game actually designed around it.  Allowing for more freeform characters so people -can- actually make a competent PC at Chargen instead of a pathetic scrub.  Ability to make someone who is worthy of being chosen by the Inquisition in the first place, mind you.  And that was why you won't run it?

 

Seriously?  That's what I call bad GMing ability, they weren't making munchkins in 2e terms, they were making competent characters in their fields, and you had your mindset too firmly stuck inside the overly linear design of 1e.  You've just got to remember that and GM accordingly.

 

As for the dialog thing.  Again.  These GMs *are not bad* GMs simply because they don't want to allow Elite Advances, which are in the book as optional to begin with.  It's hardly a 'take your toys and play with someone else' situation.  Especially if you hate GMing and the other players do too.   They still tell engaging stories, are fun people to play with, and otherwise just fine.  They just don't feel comfortable with an optional rule.

 

And I -do- get you.  I just hate GMing, it's not a simple solution, it's a fact of life.  Many players don't like it.  I'm one of them.  sure I run some games, because it's the only way I can get to play 90 percent of the time in my area.  So I jump at a chance to play games when I get the opportunity.  If I NEVER had to GM a game again and would have a steady ability to play any game I wanted to as a player?  I'd do it in a heartbeat, for me it is a chore.  And much less fun than actually playing.

 

Hell, I'm lucky if I can get half my players to even buy the books!  But at least they're willing to play.  And often that's the only way we get to play.  And these are not bad games, they're still good games.

 

Regardless, it's pretty obvious you hate DH2e, and I hate 1e as much as you do 2.  We have very different tastes in games.  You like more old school structured chargen and advancement in characters, I like more freeform advancement and cg.  So I doubt we're going to find a consensus here.

Edited by Dulahan

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And in turn, this advancement system puts DMs on the spot to the point I refuse to run it after having two people show up with fresh chars that started with previously rank 8ish talents... One would think that if one takes agency out of the hand of the game master, one might include some checks and balances against munchkinism.

Well that's their loss. Most of the currently Tier 3/2 Talents (I don't have my DH1 book on me so quite what makes a Rank 8 talent a rank 8 talent is beyond me), have pre-requisites. These are stat pre-requisites as well as lower tier talent pre-requisites, which themselves may have stat pre-requisites. If a character shows up with that much XP sunk into a munchikin trap then they've not bought anything worthwhile for the level they're currently at. Somebody shows up with Two Weapon-Wielder to the first session? That's all well and good but they used their Acquisitions to get two Pistols , they may well look cool but it's a one-trick pony. The Tech Priest took a bullet to the gut and he can't crack this Cogitator, the Arbites Medic is trying to keep his guts in and the Feral Berserker is frothing at the mouth and waving his giant axe at the Cogitator. Two people here are one-trick ponies, and they probably tried to rush to get their character concept out of the gate instead of building up to it.

 

 DH1 was good in that it didn't let you become super-awesome until you had enough of a level of competence at other things. DH2 will simply let a dumbass be a dumbass, reign them in and try again.

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Trap options just cause problems later on, when the player notices his one trick pony sucks and he's not having fun. I've been DMing long enough to know that I am better off declining a character like that from the get go, than having to deal with the fallout once the player notices "My cunning plan was not that hot to begin with". So yes, I refuse to run DH2e, because it means infinitely more work for me than a system with better balance, be it through a class progression, or because talents and skills are created in a manner where there is no great variance in usefulness. Easily moddable into what my group likes or well-balanced in itself is generally my preference.

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