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LimDul

Opportunity Fire + Advance

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That is a tough one, which we have debated before.

The letter of the rules say that Any two adjacent squads may support. Though it does mention 3 conditions that precludes units(Heavy weapon, Pin & disruption). The sentence making the most trouble is: "even fatigued squads."  The sentence makes it clear that fatigues squads may support. But some also reads it as indication that its inclusion means that only fresh or fatigued squads, and thus not Op-fire squads, as such are Non-fatigued & Non-fresh.

My take on this interpretation is that YES - adjacent squads in Op-fire, May participate in assaults, after which they become fatigued. As Non-fatigued they may advance after combat.

 

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Hefsgaard said:

The letter of the rules say that Any two adjacent squads may support. Though it does mention 3 conditions that precludes units(Heavy weapon, Pin & disruption). The sentence making the most trouble is: "even fatigued squads."  The sentence makes it clear that fatigues squads may support. But some also reads it as indication that its inclusion means that only fresh or fatigued squads, and thus not Op-fire squads, as such are Non-fatigued & Non-fresh.

My take on this interpretation is that YES - adjacent squads in Op-fire, May participate in assaults, after which they become fatigued. As Non-fatigued they may advance after combat.

I believe that 'up to two friendly squads' sets the basic conditions.  The phrase 'even fatigued squads' lets us know that prior activation does not exclude a unit and carries no meaning about anything else.  The phrase 'but not pinned or disrupted' sets conditions for squads that are excluded and carries no meaning for any other squads.  Since there is no language that includes the word 'fresh', as an inclusion condition, or 'op-fire', as an exclusion condition, then squads in op-fire adhere to the requirements of friendly units that are allowed to participate. 

 

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IMHO, the Op Fire rules clearly state that, "A unit may only engage in an Op Fire attack if the active enemy unit has just moved into a hex within range and LOS". I grant that we are discussing assault attacks and that the above specifies "Op Fire attack", however, the Op Fire concept (and rules) are very clear about movement as the trigger for Op Fire. Moreover, Op Fire activated units are not even allowed to engage units advancing or retreating into/from an assault since these are not considered normal movement. Therefore, why would any Op Fire activated unit suddenly be allowed to support an assault action by engaging a non-moving enemy unit?

Once a unit previously ordered into Op Fire has engaged due to an Op Fire action, it is fatigued and "no longer considered to be in Op Fire mode", at which point it could participate in an assault.

Being able to engage with an Op Fire unit previously activated by being placed into Op Fire mode for an assault action seems to violate several principles and is taking too much advantage of a good thing. The operative term for engaging in Op Fire is "normal movement" only.

Bring it on, bring it on.

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I think the relevant point is that Assault is Not Op-fire, and thus the rules for Op-fire has no relevance.

Somehow it also seems weird that it would be wrong for the OP-fire Squad to help in an assault, but fint to First fire on something and only then help with the assault.

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I certainly see your point that Assault is not Op Fire. I respectfully counter that equally,  Op Fire is not Assault. My point is that these are two major actions. Is the execution of two major actions by one unit during the same game round sanctioned by the game architecture's principles? I suggest no for these reasons:

The turn/round structure is a model for command and control. Based on the relatively primitive command and control of the WW2 era, regular military units received orders or directions and then executed those orders until otherwise directed. A unit ordered to provide covering fire while an assault occured in its vicinity would be doing so to protect the flanks or approaches to the assault ground. To suddenly jump up and support an assault after being ordered to cover the approaches would require new "orders" (i.e. changing action status). Back to the game...since that unit is already performing an action (Op Fire mode) you would need to change its action "order" to perform an entirely different action. There is no action listed in the rules that allows one to switch out of Op Fire and back to fresh. You could use a Fatigue action and then participate in the Assault.

If you feel strongly enough about your position I would suggest creating rules that simulate command and control models for what you suggest. Three ideas come to mind:

1. Create a strategy card that allows this option.

2. Allow Op Fire mode units to participate in an assault if the lead assaulting squad is in the same hex AND has an officer based, or if there is an officer based with the Op Fire mode unit. This simulates the local officer taking the initiative and giving "new" orders.

3. Some units were highly experienced and trained in assault tactics. Rangers, marines, commandos, airborne/Luftwaffe and SS panzergrenadier units come to mind. You could allow Op Fire units to participate in an assault action for these units or if a squad base contained at least 50% elite troops.

I look forward to the final ruling from FFG.

 

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Bazookajoe said:

  Op Fire is not Assault.

There is no action listed in the rules that allows one to switch out of Op Fire and back to fresh. You could use a Fatigue action and then participate in the Assault.

Nothing is an assault, until it's an assault.  Certainly Op-Fire is not an assault.  And we're not talking about it being an assault, but only supporting an assault.

There is no requirement that a squad be 'fresh', only that it be 'friendly' and, last time I looked, the Op-Fire squads were smiling.

Interesting that you should suggest that they be fatigued first!  Aren't fatigued Op-Fire squads still Op-Fire squads?  Being fatigued is not a restriction, but it isn't inclusive either. 

The language, as it should, speaks for itself.  Command structure/reality has little to do with rules.

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I am quite sure the officer/NCO in the Op-fire squad, would be able to change the standing order, either on his own inicitive or by radio/trompet/drums/semaphore.

After all, even under you own argument, all he would have to shout is FIRE then CHARGE! Since you do allow the now fatigued unit to support an assault.

Now what remains it to find good cause for it being able to advance. ;-)

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Actually, the rules state that once a unit and supporting units have resolved an Op Fire attack, the activation token is flipped and "These units are no longer considered to be in Op Fire mode." (Pg 32)

Again, my points are: (1) these are two major actions with the Op Fire unit already being activated for that function and (2) Op Fire is triggered by movement only and not by the execution of another action at the player's option. Your suggestion creates a situation whereby Op Fire mode now becomes available to support other actions. By your logic, Op Fire activated units should also be able to support a Concentrated Fire action. Since the rules are vague on using Op Fire activated units to support other actions (assault, etc.) but clear on what does trigger it, I'm suggesting that the hierarchy to use is what's clearly stated in the rules.

WRT rules and command/control structure...wargaming rules are vehicles that allow the designer to model reality, historical actions. 

 

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First: A unit must be Fresh to support  a Concentrated Attack with combined fire. An Op-Fire unit is Non-Fresh, as it has an OP-marker placed on it. So this would preclude any supporting Op-Fire units in Concentrated Fire.

Second: The rules are not vague on what units can support a attack. Any squad that is neither pinned or disrupted, nor contains a heavy weapon, may support an assault. Nothing vague there.

Third: There are three basic forms of attack that squads can make. Concentrated Fire, Opportunity Fire and Assault. All of which can be supported.

Fourth: I can find no place in the rules that says that it is impossible for a squad in Op-fire to support other fire. I is purely the condition of being Non-Fresh that precludes support of Concentrated fire. Assaults does not have this condition, making Op-fire squads able to support assaults.

Fifth: I do not find it likely that the officer model, represents the only officers present. They should be considered exceptional ones, or just higher ranking ones. All squads would have an officer and several NCOs. But that is all fluff and not rules.

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I agree with your point that Op Fire units are not eligible to support Concentrated Fire due to their previously being activated and therefore not fresh. Thank you. That argument reinforces and clarifies my point that Op Fire units are not eligible to support Assaults as they are already in an activation status until they become fatigued. Just to press home my other point...the rules strongly state that movement is the trigger for an Op Fire attack.  Since a friendly assault  action is not mentioned in the Op Fire rules as a trigger, it is not authorized until the FFG folks give the thumbs up.

So...I think it's at this point that we agree to disagree. I appreciate your understanding and insight of the rules and your passion to improve the experience of ToI. It has been an interesting and spirited debate.

Cheers!

 

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True this is almost as much fun at actualy playing the game.

However I fail to see how my argument actualy reenforces your side of the debate. It is true that Op-fire units may perform a special attact in the opponents turn, but there is nothing in the rules that says that Op-fire squads may be selected for supporting an assault. True they can not be given orders, as they already have orders. But Op-fire units are not excluded by any wording anywhere in the rules, and are included by the wording in the Assault section.

Obviously I have failed to convince you, so we must hope for arbitration by the Powers that Be.

It is not actualy a situation that comes up all that often anyway, so happy gaming, even if you do it wrong ;-)

 

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Bazookajoe said:

  Since a friendly assault  action is not mentioned in the Op Fire rules as a trigger, it is not authorized until the FFG folks give the thumbs up.

Not quite.  The authorization from FFG is given in the rules and in the basic nature of the organization of the rulebook.

If you look in the Opportunity Fire section on p.32, you will find the rules for how a squad in Op-Fire can make an Opportunity Fire attack.  The section on Assault Attacks on p.33 gives us the rules for Assault Attacks.  This discussion is about the 'triggers' for 'supporting an Assault Attack', not about 'triggers' for making an Opportunity Fire attack.  Since this supporting action is not about making a self-contained Opportunity Fire attack, it would not be in the OF section on p.32.  The rules for different things are in different places in the rulebook, which, while keeping the rulebook somewhat brief, has also lead to some confusion.  A rule for a specific thing may be different than the rule for a general thing.  For example, in general 'fatigued' means get some rest, but in the Assault Attack rules, fatigue doesn't matter, so it's 'wake up and support those idiots assaulting those guys'.  Notice that on page 29, where it talks about Conbined Fire, there are restrictions broken down into Concentrated Attack and Op-Fire Attack, using the word 'only' in placing restrictions on who can do what in those situations.  Since an Assault Attack is neither one of those, some might think that 'only' would preclude any unit from supporting an Assault, since the rules state that such and such is in the rules.  Luckily, specific rules trump general rules, so we really have to go with what is written in the Assault Attack rules.  As long as you are friendly, adjacent and not pinned or disrupted, you are good to go.

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I was reviewing some posts from previous subjects and came across a long discussion regarding the OP Fire and supporting assaults. During that discussion you were opposed to the idea due to the OP Fire rules regarding triggers.

I note your argument for allowing it now. I was wondering if there was something other than the non-exclusion clause  which specifically changed your mind?

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To summarize:

1. Squads in OpFire can lead assaults?
(     )  No. 
(     ) Yes. Then they can move to occupy the terrain that was empty after a successful assault? 
                 (     ) No.
                 (     ) Yes.               

2. Squads in OpFire can support assaults?
(      ) No. 
(      ) Yes. Then they can move to occupy the terrain that was empty after a successful assault? 
              (     ) No.
              (     ) Yes.             

   

Bazookajoe said:

I look forward to the final ruling from FFG.

And what was the final ruling from FFG?
 

 

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Squads in Op fire can not lead an assult as the squad has already been assigned op fire which is a type of action, assult is another action you can only activate a unit with one action.

i would say that they can not support an assult either as the op fire rules say that they may only engage in op fire if the enemy has just moved into a hex in range and line of sight.

If you are assulting it is your action turn so the enemy would not have moved.

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Squads in OP-fire can not be activated with assault orders, as they already have been given orders.

However the rules seem to indicate that they Can support assaults, as they are not fatigued.

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Hefsgaard said:

Squads in OP-fire can not be activated with assault orders, as they already have been given orders.

However the rules seem to indicate that they Can support assaults, as they are not fatigued.

I agree that squads in op-fire can support an assault (but even fatigued squads can support, so that's not a problem anyway).

 

cool.gif

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Hefsgaard said:

Squads in OP-fire can not be activated with assault orders, as they already have been given orders.

However the rules seem to indicate that they Can support assaults, as they are not fatigued.

This is the problem, one time can do, another time can not do.
OpFire unit can not (because already is ordered). Another time they can do (because they are not fatigued).

We can see that the units can be in three conditions / situations:

- Fresh.
- OpFire.
- Fatigued.
 


But, about OpFire the situation is vague and ambiguous, and OpFire can be interpreted as "Fresh" one time, and as "Fatigued" another time, depending  on the situation. This is a wrong in the rules!

And after so many years, what  the FFG tell us about it?

A simple aswers solve all problems:

1. OpFire units can lead or support assaults.
2. OpFire units can not lead or support assaults.

Simple. End.

 

 

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 IT seem to me that a suqad in op fire has made a commitment to wait and see that turn. It must have be important to to play op fire. maybe if you plan an assault plan not op fire. decisions must be final.  

Sabos from Hungary

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Ive been playing TOI not pre assigning Op fire mode to units, rather just allowing any unit which is not fatigued, to Op fire(non moving players choice) at any time during the moving players action phase at one of his units that moved while in LOS.The unit is then fatiqued after firing. Thats not exactly like the rule says, but it makes it more of a challenge for the moving player as to which enemy unit(s) will fire when he moves.

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GusXokleng said:

But, about OpFire the situation is vague and ambiguous, and OpFire can be interpreted as "Fresh" one time, and as "Fatigued" another time, depending  on the situation. This is a wrong in the rules!

 

Like I said, this has NOTHING to do with who can support an assault an who can't. The rules very clearly state what's needed to be able to provide supoort:

- the squad has to be adjacent to the target hex

- the squad has to be friendly

- the squad can't support if pinned or disrupted

And yes, we are all very aware that normally a squad in op-fire can't make other attacks ... but neither can fatigued squads. Again, this doesn't matter one tiny bit. It's the assault rules that allows squads which under normal conditions could not attack, to make support attacks for the assault.

That's it, the rest is all about "it doesn't make sense" or "it feels wrong" or "it's not historical" ... all very fine to have a good debate about, but in the end completely useless when it comes to the actual rules. So you/we/he/everybody may not like it, but it's all there in the rulebook.

 

cool.gif

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