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Reuben What Is?

Campaign - Hard on Rebel Players?

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In our group where I would say that 2 of the hero players were very competent and the 3rd getting really good towards the end (I was not one of them :P) and the same goes for the Imperial Player (playing very well from the beginning) and we won the last 5-6 missions. Some were quite close though. The first 5 missions were all very close with the Imperial player taking 4 I believe.

It felt like it snowballed with all the skills and we managed to get a lot XP which made a huge difference.

 

We FELT like the Imperial player suffered more from mistakes than the heroes.

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I really wish we had more detailed aggregate data about people's campaign experiences, particularly including which Imperial class was in play, and which heroes. I strongly suspect that the Imperial classes vary widely in potency, especially when facing certain combinations of heroes, and that explains why a lot of people report serious balance issues (like 80+% win records for one side) while a lot of other people completely dismiss such claims because their own experience has been more balanced.

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I've played many campaigns with the same group of people, always being Imperial.  Some combinations of heroes + imperial class are definitely harder on the rebels than others, but in my experience, when the rebels lose a mission in my group it's always come down to tactical errors (sometimes just a single bad decision, sometimes a series of bad choices spanning a couple of upgrade stages) made by the rebels or just ridiculous bad dice luck.  We've played campaigns were the rebels won most missions, and some where Imperial won most.  Lately, perhaps because the rebels know all "surprises" in the missions, it's been pretty even, although the rebels do tend to win more missions than I do, when I don't play Subversive Tactics.

 

There's just so many choices to be made (which heroes to play, which side missions to play, which cards to buy, when to buy them, etc) that I think it's hard to boil it down to just one thing.  A campaign can be terribly unbalanced under the right conditions, and if FFG's goal was to make all missions balanced so either side have an equal chance of winning every mission, they've obviously failed. However, I don't think that was the goal; I think some missions were specifically designed to invoke a certain narrative, and I feel this is the true strength of the campaign.

 

Honestly, if you want a good, competitively fair game, you should play skirmish games instead.

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It's not balanced for anything less than 4 heroes, period. You just can't complete the objectives in the time allotted if you're only running 2-3.

My wife and I started playing the game in February. It took a few times to get the rules.down, but we finally got through a campaign. She played 4 rebel heroes and won about 25-30% of all the games. Her theory was that it was harder because I am more experienced at strategy games. So, we switched sides. I thought I would help her by showing some counter strategies. I also went with 3 heroes because I felt given my greater amount of experience, a handicap was appropriate.

I have lost every mission with the Rebels, even Aftermath. I'm the only person playing Rebels that I have played with to do that. I can say she learned from my method of playing Imperials but that doesn't explain all the difficulty away. Characters with a white defense die are worthless. They have almost no chance.of.survival. If I ever run Rebels in a campaign again, it's going to be Fenn, Diala, Gaarkan, and Gideon. Mak and Jyn are guaranteed to be wounded every time.

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It's not balanced for anything less than 4 heroes, period. You just can't complete the objectives in the time allotted if you're only running 2-3.

 

Did you play with 4 actication tokens? Did you play with the health buff (like instructed in the manual)?

 

Because for missions where the rebels don't need to split up or where there is no round limit, less rebel heroes is much better than 4 heroes. Unless the IP plays Subversive Tactics.

 

Characters with a white defense die are worthless.

 

Especially with low Hero count characters with white die are very sturdy as you can't reliably take off large health pools. A Mak with 13-15 HP can't be wounded within 2 activations, no matter how hard you try.

Edited by jacenat

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When you're suddenly staring down 2 full groups of Troopers and royal guards are waiting to meet you, its a "hounds to the hunters" situation. You either kill the hounds or you run to the hunters and get encircled by the hounds. Mak may not for this round but he is dead before his next activation.

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That's strange, because with 2 heroes and 4 activations (for which you are semi-flexible on the order) this usually gives you enough flexibility to counter almost all threat the Imperial Player can throw at you, especially after 2-3 XP.

Without a more detailed battle report, I can't help you though.

 

I played 2 campaigns and the one with 3 Rebel Heroes (Gaarkhan, Mak, Gideon) was actually very hard for me in the late game as Imperial Player. This time around with 4 Rebel Heroes (Diala, Fenn, Jyn, Mak) and playing Subversive Tactics, I won 8 of 10 missions so far.

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My players lost aftermath by 1 shot/activation.  They were running 3 heroes, Fenn, Mak, and Diala.  Of course they were 9, 10, and 7 years old.  :)  Still it does seem harder with only three heroes even with the bonuses.  They did much better in the next two games where the other boys dad joined there team with the wookiee.

 

Thanks,
Duncan

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.... The game ended that very turn because we performed the mission-critical action we were instructed to perform. The level of frustration among the rebels is hard to describe.

 

My friend, the game ended, becouse You rushed mission-critical action You were instructed to perform.

After first mission, You should know that there will be suprises after You open the door or activate console.

On our very first campaign, we sacrificed entire turn to assemble, then we crossed 2 doors at one turn and secured all terminals before activating first. Like a spec-ops team we were supposed to be.

None of us read the scenario before and we have no idea what will happen. But we were sure something will happen, and we were prepared.

So much shopping after this scenario ;).

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My players lost aftermath by 1 shot/activation.  They were running 3 heroes, Fenn, Mak, and Diala.  Of course they were 9, 10, and 7 years old.   :)  Still it does seem harder with only three heroes even with the bonuses.  They did much better in the next two games where the other boys dad joined there team with the wookiee.

 

Thanks,

Duncan

My friends and I finished a campaign running Fenn, Diala and Gharkaan, and it was a smashing rebel victory.

 

We defeated the emperor, blew up the Death Star...

 

Wait... I might be misremembering things a bit!

:P  :lol:

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The ultimate flaw with "Generous Donations" is

 

that ANY FIGURE can shoot at doors.

Why not destroy a door in round one and trigger the "First Time Door opens" Event yourself.

You get free figures (reserved deployments) to block the narrow corridors.

 

I think even the new spawn points for reinforcements play in your hand.

Edited by thePREdiger

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The ultimate flaw with "Generous Donations" is

 

that ANY FIGURE can shoot at doors.

Why not destroy a door in round one and trigger the "First Time Door opens" Event yourself.

You get free figures (reserved deployments) to block the narrow corridors.

 

I think even the new spawn points for reinforcements play in your hand.

 

I ... overlooked that.

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My friend, the game ended, becouse You rushed mission-critical action You were instructed to perform.

After first mission, You should know that there will be suprises after You open the door or activate console.

On our very first campaign, we sacrificed entire turn to assemble, then we crossed 2 doors at one turn and secured all terminals before activating first. Like a spec-ops team we were supposed to be.

None of us read the scenario before and we have no idea what will happen. But we were sure something will happen, and we were prepared.

So much shopping after this scenario ;).

Well done! Sadly, that option was just not made available to us - the IP had a Nexu with Assault Armor jealously guarding one of the doorways (pounce, then run back to its blocking position, if needed using an extra move from an imperial officer). We simply could not go through without killing it, which took us at least two activations. So, on the turn we first had the option of attempting to open the door, the alternative was to basically do nothing and simply prepare to kill the Nexu that would respawn in the exact same spot (or the other doorway, depending on where we ended up) the following turn... which would leave us in pretty much the exact same situation. This didn't seem like a sound strategy. And once the door was open, our choice was to press forward and trigger the console or to fall back and attempt to make an ordered assault (which I suggested, but the group decided against), which had its own set of risks.

What I object to is the complete lack of information about the mission objectives, which makes any decision a gamble, with no real way to minimize risks. Sure, in retrospect you can sacrifice even two or three turns to get to the perfect position to launch a co-ordinated two-point assault despite the IP's efforts to stop you - but then you're risking that whatever's on the other side of the door will slow you down enough that you won't complete your objective in time.

On the plus side, the IP spent his points to buy the Dark Obsession agenda mission, which we handily won, so it wasn't all bad I suppose.

Edited by DiabloAzul

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.... The game ended that very turn because we performed the mission-critical action we were instructed to perform. The level of frustration among the rebels is hard to describe.

 

My friend, the game ended, becouse You rushed mission-critical action You were instructed to perform.

After first mission, You should know that there will be suprises after You open the door or activate console.

 

Completely disagree with this. Yeah, something will happen, but what?

 

In pretty much every case apart from this mission, you want to get stuff quickly so when "something" happens you have time to deal with it. Right from mission one - if you're playing Aftermath and wait four turns to open the door, a load of bad guys appear and you're not going to have time to get into the outpost and complete the mission.

 

So... in Generous Donations, you know something's going to happen when you upload the virus. Everything you have experienced in the rest of the campaign implies that you should do it as quickly as possible. But if you do it as quickly as possible, there's a very high chance that that will leave the Imperial player simply able to pick off the terminals, claim loads of influence, and deny you loads of credits. And there is no way of knowing this until it happens, at all - no matter how smug you may feel because your group got lucky.

 

I know that when I open the door to my boss' office, he will say something to me. But if he decides (without telling me) to sack me if I'm wearing a red shirt but give me a raise if I'm wearing a blue shirt, I'm going to be pretty hacked off if I'm wearing red and get sacked, and hearing you say "well you should have worn blue like I did, IDIOT" won't help.

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I know that when I open the door to my boss' office, he will say something to me. But if he decides (without telling me) to sack me if I'm wearing a red shirt but give me a raise if I'm wearing a blue shirt, I'm going to be pretty hacked off if I'm wearing red and get sacked, and hearing you say "well you should have worn blue like I did, IDIOT" won't help.

 

 

Yeah, I think this gets at the heart of my disappointment with the design of a number of missions, and Generous Donations is probably one of the worst cases of it. Hidden information and triggered surprises are all well and good, and I recognize that they add some great flavor to the game, but when they are arbitrary and unintuitive while *also* being strategically critical for the Rebels, then they become a real fun-killer.

 

In Generous Donations, the surprise doesn't even make thematic sense: the Rebels are deploying their own virus, so wouldn't they know how it's going to work? Wouldn't they know that they're going to have to physically stand next to the terminals to prevent an Imperial from running up and doing whatever is symbolized by "interact" in this case (typing in a shutdown code, plugging a countermeasure into an open port, whatever)? Yes, of course they should know that going in, it's their own gorram virus.

 

But inexplicably, they aren't allowed to know that until the last possible moment, at which time the Imperial can very easily be in position to claim a landslide victory before the Rebels can possibly react to the new objective.

 

Clearly there are some Rebel groups who devised a plan for this mission that coincidentally turned out to still work after the reveal of the new objectives. But in this mission, doing that comes down to pure chance. So when another Rebel group devises a plan which is completely reasonable given the information available, but turns out *not* to work after the reveal of the new objectives, it's hard to say it's really their fault.

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Thus is one of those missions where I would reword the mission text. If it's that reliant on a surprise twist that I won't have a fair shot at winning as the IP, then it's a bad mission anyway and I'd prefer it tip toward the side of the table with more people to be happy about it.

Edited by ArbitraryGamer

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The virus uploading event isn't totally unguessable. The fluff says the uploading will take time and that they need to sit tight and defend in the mean time. Our rebels guessed precisely correctly that Imperials can probably use an action next to a terminal and halt the uploading so maybe they should at least clear the room of any Imperials first. Makes total thematic sense. It actually came as a positive surprise to them they can still prevent that Imperial action by being close enough to terminal. They were totally prepared for worse.

 

The mission ended a total draw. They got 6 tokens and I was left with 6.

Edited by Hipsu

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.... The game ended that very turn because we performed the mission-critical action we were instructed to perform. The level of frustration among the rebels is hard to describe.

 

My friend, the game ended, becouse You rushed mission-critical action You were instructed to perform.

After first mission, You should know that there will be suprises after You open the door or activate console.

 

Completely disagree with this. Yeah, something will happen, but what?

 

In pretty much every case apart from this mission, you want to get stuff quickly so when "something" happens you have time to deal with it. Right from mission one - if you're playing Aftermath and wait four turns to open the door, a load of bad guys appear and you're not going to have time to get into the outpost and complete the mission.

 

..............

 

 

Something bad will happen. 95% Imperial reinforcements will happen and they will shoot at You.

And I'm not telling to wait till last turn. There is a lot of space between "rush" and "too slow".

 

In pretty much every case after You trigger an event, Imperials appear and they have activations in the same turn.

So, if You trigger an event with last player activation, You are giving them entire turn of shooting/pouncing at Your activated characters.

On the other hand, if You trigger the event with first activation, You have second activation before imperials and Your friends can act in standard order instead of watching execution platoon at work.

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So, if You trigger an event with last player activation, You are giving them entire turn of shooting/pouncing at Your activated characters.

On the other hand, if You trigger the event with first activation, You have second activation before imperials and Your friends can act in standard order instead of watching execution platoon at work.

 

OK, but how many missions have an event that happens "...at the end of the turn in which <trigger>"? Several that I can remember, right off the top of my head. In such a case, doing <trigger> first so they have a whole turn to react doesn't help.

 

Generous Donations happens not to be one of those cases. *The Rebel players don't know that.*

 

If you got it right: lucky you. The fact remains that the Rebel players don't know what's going to happen, can't know what's going to happen, and can't even use their experience of the rest of the game to anticipate what's going to happen. As taleden says, it's *their virus* so shouldn't they have some idea of its behaviour?

 

All they're told is to upload it and then, ...something. Anticipating what that something is, is nothing more than guesswork. Some groups might guess right, and clear out the building before uploading - well, OK. It was still just a guess.

Edited by Bitterman

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We're halfway during our first campaign and we've won zero missions as the rebels so far.

We've had a few close calls but mostly it's a total walk for the Imperial player. Our closest was the mission where the IP gets Vader but even then we lost because Vader doesn't need to interact with Luke, opening the door is enough.

 

After playing Descent 2.0, which was hard but doable, Imperial Assault seems heavily Imperial sided (and don't get me started on the threat doubling cards).

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But inexplicably, they aren't allowed to know that until the last possible moment, at which time the Imperial can very easily be in position to claim a landslide victory before the Rebels can possibly react to the new objective.

 

This sums up the problem I have with "Fly Solo" as well (documented in a different thread).

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This sums up the problem I have with "Fly Solo" as well (documented in a different thread).

 

Yep.

 

 

my rebels made the mistake (without knowing it in advance of course) to open the door as their last action with Solo. Who got shot to death by everything that spawned after him and activated right then and there.

Edited by derroehre

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