Measuring with you hands?!

[Klutz 1,590]

Also note that an email reply to someone isn't really an official update to the game as someone could (not saying this happened just devils advocate and whatnot) just put text down as if it was from Alex or Frank.

 

Yes, of course. Someone who disagrees with the e-mail in question always posts a similar response.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.

That is precisely what Alex confirmed in the previously posted e-mail, and corresponds to my interpretation of the tournament rules.

And he can update the FAQ/tournament rules as such. Mind you this is a pointless update but if it makes people feel better about the game then whatever. Also note that an email reply to someone isn't really an official update to the game as someone could (not saying this happened just devils advocate and whatnot) just put text down as if it was from Alex or Frank.

Now I think you are just being obtuse because you feel called out for your play habits. Edited April 1, 2015 by ScottieATF

[Rockpockalypse 22]

 

The core rules are pretty clear.

 

"Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads."

 

In your head doesn't include hands, toes, templates, laser rangefinders, etc.  

 

The core rules are clear about only using your eyes during the planning phase.  And everyone is obeying that.  

 

The grey area lies in that actions like Barrel Roll and Boost, take part in the Activation phase, and no where in the rules does it say you cannot pre-guesstimate ship movement with your fingers.  If the previously mentioned Email from Alex is legit, and unfortunately this is an internet forum and therefore there will always be questions to that fact, until actual legit concrete proof from FFG has come down in the form of a FAQ update, it will continue to be a grey area.  

 

Welcome to the internet.

 

One more thing.... would people please stop quoting the rule " Instead, they must plan their maneuvers

by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads." if you're going to quote that, then at least have the balls to quote the previous sentence that says "During the Planning phase, players cannot use

maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up."  which sort of invalids your argument as it specifically says you can only not pre-measure in the planning phase.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Rockpockalypse

[Klutz 1,590]

The core rules are clear about only using your eyes during the planning phase.  And everyone is obeying that.  

 

The grey area lies in that actions like Barrel Roll and Boost, take part in the Activation phase, and no where in the rules does it say you cannot pre-guesstimate ship movement with your fingers.  If the previously mentioned Email from Alex is legit, and unfortunately this is an internet forum and therefore there will always be questions to that fact, until actual legit concrete proof from FFG has come down in the form of a FAQ update, it will continue to be a grey area.  

 

Welcome to the internet.

 

The Competitive Play section of the FAQ restricts when you can "measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc".

 

Therefore, I am technically allowed to use a laser to determine if someone is in arc at any time, right?

The timing restriction only applies to measuring range or checking arc with the range ruler, right?

[StevenO 2,996]

 

The core rules are pretty clear.

 

"Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads."

 

In your head doesn't include hands, toes, templates, laser rangefinders, etc.  

 

 

I guess the only way to do that is after the clean up phase everyone should put on a blindfold or turn away from the board in order to set their dials.

[Rockpockalypse 22]

 

The core rules are clear about only using your eyes during the planning phase.  And everyone is obeying that.  

 

The grey area lies in that actions like Barrel Roll and Boost, take part in the Activation phase, and no where in the rules does it say you cannot pre-guesstimate ship movement with your fingers.  If the previously mentioned Email from Alex is legit, and unfortunately this is an internet forum and therefore there will always be questions to that fact, until actual legit concrete proof from FFG has come down in the form of a FAQ update, it will continue to be a grey area.  

 

Welcome to the internet.

 

The Competitive Play section of the FAQ restricts when you can "measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc".

 

Therefore, I am technically allowed to use a laser to determine if someone is in arc at any time, right?

The timing restriction only applies to measuring range or checking arc with the range ruler, right?

 

 

Well now you're just being petty and ignorant.  I'm sorry that you can't find a legitimate fault with my argument. I truly wish we could all get along.  Like I said previously, I don't think it's right to measure with your fingers, I don't do it, but there is argument for a grey area. 

[ScottieATF 2,867]

The core rules are pretty clear.

 

"Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads."

 

In your head doesn't include hands, toes, templates, laser rangefinders, etc.

 

I guess the only way to do that is after the clean up phase everyone should put on a blindfold or turn away from the board in order to set their dials.

Nope, Eyes are allowed. Actually specially mentioned in the designer ckarification.

[Frando3 11]

To clarify, these players measure the ship base with their thumb and finger. Then use that measurement to judge distances by sliding their hand around. Just as good as grabbing the 1 straight template and checking a barrel roll.

Not sure if you had anyone else doing this besides me but I was 100% not measuring the distance of the base.  I think in terms of 2 distance on rolls and boosts anyway so unless you though I was doing some kind of set drag set to get a 2 distance down this wasn't the case.  What I was doing was trying to picture what the 45 degree change would look like from an angles boost which is why I put my hand down.  Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.  People have been doing what I was doing the whole time, and in front of both alex and frank and they have never said anything about it.  I didn't see anyone trying to mark off distances like what you are describing.  At best it was a ship will go here what will it look like when it gets there.

I recall a particular instance where you put down your fingers/hand to check if a barrel roll or boost would get Soonti out of arc. You did not specifically measure the distance of the base first. It makes sense that you were using your hand to place Soontir at his new location. However, this is still measuring the new location of your ship using your fingers which you are holding 1 ship base apart, to indicate his potential new position. This allows you to measure with certainty the final location of your ship. Not in your head, but on the table, with your hands.

I am very surprised to hear that this is considered legal. As I read the rules, measuring prior to a barrel roll is not allowed. And this is measuring the new location of the ship using hands/fingers.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

So if a dude with a glass eye takes it out to mesure a barrel roll it's ok?

 

I'm also glad Alex clarified it as "eyes only", saves some hardcore players from going to jail for indecent exposure!

 

But, yeah measuring with your fingers/arms is an old TT trick. I'm not surprised it popped up in x-wing tournaments to.

 

Back in the days of warhammer we had this guy who was very good with guess range weapons, used to point his finger at a unit and then go "they are dead!" "one turn to live!" Then we found out he had measured the lenght of his arm from his index finger to his forearm tatoo to his elbow.

 

So beware of lots of pointing: chances are your oponent is illegaly measuring things.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Robin Graves

[Frando3 11]

Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.

 

That is precisely what Alex confirmed in the previously posted e-mail, and corresponds to my interpretation of the tournament rules.

And he can update the FAQ/tournament rules as such.  Mind you this is a pointless update but if it makes people feel better about the game then whatever.  Also note that an email reply to someone isn't really an official update to the game as someone could (not saying this happened just devils advocate and whatnot) just put text down as if it was from Alex or Frank.

I disagree that it is pointless. Performing these measurements allows for much better arc dodging. It makes a huge difference to measure your new position to guarantee getting in or out of firing arc.

[Klutz 1,590]

Well now you're just being petty and ignorant.  I'm sorry that you can't find a legitimate fault with my argument. I truly wish we could all get along.  Like I said previously, I don't think it's right to measure with your fingers, I don't do it, but there is argument for a grey area. 

 

Yes, I was. The intention of the rules is clear, and the "possibly a hoax, won't be official until it's in the FAQ" e-mail confirms that.

 

 

One more thing.... if you're going to say that the core rules only restrict the use of templates to pre-measure during the planning phase, and that using them during the activation phase is a grey area, I suppose using them in the End Phase is also a grey area, right?

Edited April 1, 2015 by Klutz

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Well now you're just being petty and ignorant.  I'm sorry that you can't find a legitimate fault with my argument. I truly wish we could all get along.  Like I said previously, I don't think it's right to measure with your fingers, I don't do it, but there is argument for a grey area.

 

Yes, I was. The intention of the rules is clear, and the "possibly a hoax, won't be official until it's in the FAQ" e-mail confirms that.

 

 

One more thing.... if you're going to say that the core rules only restrict the use of templates to pre-measure during the planning phase, and that using them during the activation phase is a grey area, I suppose using them in the End Phase is also a grey area, right?

Similarly, what would happen if I took a piece of heavy string and marked it at 1 base length, 2 lengths, 3 lengths, etc.? I could use that without technically touching the templates, so if the rule is narrowly defined in scope, could I use that thread to measure?

I'm inclined to a more general interpretation--something like Alex's "eyes only". As I said above, I'm not averse to someone ever touching the play surface, but if what someone is doing has the same effect as pre-measuring, that's a no-no.

[Klutz 1,590]

Similarly, what would happen if I took a piece of heavy string and marked it at 1 base length, 2 lengths, 3 lengths, etc.? I could use that without technically touching the templates, so if the rule is narrowly defined in scope, could I use that thread to measure?

I'm inclined to a more general interpretation--something like Alex's "eyes only". As I said above, I'm not averse to someone ever touching the play surface, but if what someone is doing has the same effect as pre-measuring, that's a no-no.

 

I agree with you completely.

 

To me, "eyes only" seems like the most reasonable interpretation of the rules that doesn't lead to absurdity.

[ForceSensitive 2,628]

While if told at tourneys that hands of the mat was the rule, is be fine with that, but our entire play group was introduced to the concept about a year ago or so. We don't measure with it, we just visualize the move and then put just or finger tip down on the about where our corner will be and then contemplate the next few turns. If we're good we eyeballed it right and hooray. If not whoops of well. Was very helpful when plotting boost+roll combos.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

It's interesting to read how far some people will legitimately try to justify their cheating.

[Buhallin 4,563]

And yet after all this, it's explicitly legal to declare a target lock to something completely on the other side of the board and use the actual ruler to very precisely measure to another ship that happens to be on the same line, and with no repercussions.

 

<shrug>  Consistency on this topic isn't exactly one of X-wing's strong suits.

[Scarloochie 84]

We got a hands off policy for our events, so it thankfully curbed the only goon doing it.  Yet he's now moved on to new shenanigans...

[Stronghammer 195]

And yet after all this, it's explicitly legal to declare a target lock to something completely on the other side of the board and use the actual ruler to very precisely measure to another ship that happens to be on the same line, and with no repercussions.

 

<shrug>  Consistency on this topic isn't exactly one of X-wing's strong suits.

I loved someone's response to this on another post.

Just say, no need to check, clearly in range and see if they will try and dispute.

[StevenO 2,996]

 

And yet after all this, it's explicitly legal to declare a target lock to something completely on the other side of the board and use the actual ruler to very precisely measure to another ship that happens to be on the same line, and with no repercussions.

 

<shrug>  Consistency on this topic isn't exactly one of X-wing's strong suits.

I loved someone's response to this on another post.

Just say, no need to check, clearly in range and see if they will try and dispute.

 

 

And then when they go too shoot are you suddenly going to say "sorry it looks like you're out of range"?  If you said "clearly in range" and nothing moved it away then certainly it should still be in range if shoot at.

[Klutz 1,590]

 

 

And yet after all this, it's explicitly legal to declare a target lock to something completely on the other side of the board and use the actual ruler to very precisely measure to another ship that happens to be on the same line, and with no repercussions.

 

<shrug>  Consistency on this topic isn't exactly one of X-wing's strong suits.

I loved someone's response to this on another post.

Just say, no need to check, clearly in range and see if they will try and dispute.

 

 

And then when they go too shoot are you suddenly going to say "sorry it looks like you're out of range"?  If you said "clearly in range" and nothing moved it away then certainly it should still be in range if shoot at.

 

 

It's a small price to pay to see their reaction, hehe.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Klutz

[Smuggler 556]

 

 

And yet after all this, it's explicitly legal to declare a target lock to something completely on the other side of the board and use the actual ruler to very precisely measure to another ship that happens to be on the same line, and with no repercussions.

 

<shrug>  Consistency on this topic isn't exactly one of X-wing's strong suits.

I loved someone's response to this on another post.

Just say, no need to check, clearly in range and see if they will try and dispute.

 

 

And then when they go too shoot are you suddenly going to say "sorry it looks like you're out of range"?  If you said "clearly in range" and nothing moved it away then certainly it should still be in range if shoot at.

 

Easy solution. "Hold on, I'm not sure if that shoot is range 2 or 3. Let's meassure! ... Oh, looks like it's actualy out of range entierly, sorry, no shoot for you."

[WWHSD 9,273]

Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.

 

That is precisely what Alex confirmed in the previously posted e-mail, and corresponds to my interpretation of the tournament rules.

His reply did not "precisely" say that. The question he answered asked if premeasuring with hands was permited. It did not ask about touching a point on the board to assist with visualization. The terse reply that was posted doesn't expand on the question at all.

He might consider touching the board in any way to be premeasuring but that certainly isn't made clear by the email response that was posted.

[Klutz 1,590]

 Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.

 

That is precisely what Alex confirmed in the previously posted e-mail, and corresponds to my interpretation of the tournament rules.

His reply did not "precisely" say that. The question he answered asked if premeasuring with hands was permited. It did not ask about touching a point on the board to assist with visualization. The terse reply that was posted doesn't expand on the question at all.

He might consider touching the board in any way to be premeasuring but that certainly isn't made clear by the email response that was posted.

 

He also didn't mention using lasers for checking arc, or pieces of string for checking range, or touching the board with our elbows.

He might consider any of those things to be premeasuring but that certainly isn't made clear by the email response that was posted.

Edit: I fully expect you to say that I'm just being stupid. However, IMO, if we start going down the path of "well, the rules don't 'precisely' say X", we'll be heading into rules chaos real quick. There are a LOT of things the rules don't "precisely" say.

 

In this particular case, I think that any reasonable person who sits down and looks at what HAS been clearly stated will come to the logical conclusion that you should just keep your hands, feet, elbows, range rulers, lasers, strings, templates, etc. off the play mat unless the game requires it.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Klutz

[StevenO 2,996]

 

 

 

And yet after all this, it's explicitly legal to declare a target lock to something completely on the other side of the board and use the actual ruler to very precisely measure to another ship that happens to be on the same line, and with no repercussions.

 

<shrug>  Consistency on this topic isn't exactly one of X-wing's strong suits.

I loved someone's response to this on another post.

Just say, no need to check, clearly in range and see if they will try and dispute.

 

 

And then when they go too shoot are you suddenly going to say "sorry it looks like you're out of range"?  If you said "clearly in range" and nothing moved it away then certainly it should still be in range if shoot at.

 

Easy solution. "Hold on, I'm not sure if that shoot is range 2 or 3. Let's meassure! ... Oh, looks like it's actualy out of range entierly, sorry, no shoot for you."

 

 

So now we call the TO over and explain the situation.  It seem that I should either get to shoot at your, we back all the way up to where you allowed the illegal target lock, or YOU forfeit the game for cheating.  I looks like if he asks to TL he gets to measure REGARDLESS of you just saying "it looks good."

 

It's a small price to pay to see their reaction, hehe.

 

I guess the previous also answers this response.  They may be surprised but then are you going to fight them when they measure anyway?

Edited April 2, 2015 by StevenO

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.

 

That is precisely what Alex confirmed in the previously posted e-mail, and corresponds to my interpretation of the tournament rules.

His reply did not "precisely" say that. The question he answered asked if premeasuring with hands was permited. It did not ask about touching a point on the board to assist with visualization. The terse reply that was posted doesn't expand on the question at all.

He might consider touching the board in any way to be premeasuring but that certainly isn't made clear by the email response that was posted.

 

He also didn't mention using lasers for checking arc, or pieces of string for checking range, or touching the board with our elbows.

He might consider any of those things to be premeasuring but that certainly isn't made clear by the email response that was posted.

Edit: I fully expect you to say that I'm just being stupid. However, IMO, if we start going down the path of "well, the rules don't 'precisely' say X", we'll be heading into rules chaos real quick. There are a LOT of things the rules don't "precisely" say.

 

In this particular case, I think that any reasonable person who sits down and looks at what HAS been clearly stated will come to the logical conclusion that you should just keep your hands, feet, elbows, range rulers, lasers, strings, templates, etc. off the play mat unless the game requires it.

 

 

Your claim was that the email response precisely confirmed that players may not touch the play mat unless they have a move template in hand. That response didn't do that. It was no more clear on that point than the bit from the rule book was. The rule and the response both deal with measuring. Is touching the board is measuring? I don't think so. As long as you are eyeballing distance and arcs instead of measuring them, I don't see an issue with touching the board to give yourself a point of reference and I gather from this thread that I'm not alone.