Measuring with you hands?!

[Frando3 11]

I played in my first store championship this past weekend, with ~30 players. I encountered something very surprising. Several people, including worlds level players, were measuring positions and distances on the table while deciding to barrel rolls or boost. They would say things like, "a boost would put me here, and that's not quite out of arc," using their hands/fingers to figure out where the ship would end up.

As I interpret the rules, this is a obvious violation of measurement rules. I have never done this, alway imagining the positions in my head. Pre measuring is specifically forbidden, correct?

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Lively discussion of this topic here.

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/138746-touching-play-area-to-estimate-movement/?hl=hands#entry1504170

Edited March 31, 2015 by Forgottenlore

[ScottieATF 2,867]

I seriously don't get how anyone can see that as acceptable.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I seriously don't get how anyone can see that as acceptable.

Speaking personally, it's an is-ought distinction: there's a difference between "I'd be happy to see my opponent do it" and "I don't think it's forbidden by the rules."

[Wh0isTh3D0ct0r 360]

I was at that same event this past weekend, and I noticed it, as well. I, too, would prefer for other players to eyeball the distances versus use any kind of visual aid.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

I seriously don't get how anyone can see that as acceptable.

Speaking personally, it's an is-ought distinction: there's a difference between "I'd be happy to see my opponent do it" and "I don't think it's forbidden by the rules."

But we know the rules don't function in that manner. The rules don't tell you all the things you can't do, they tell you the few things you can do.

I mean the argument can't really be well the rules don't say anything about me not being allowed to pre-measure with my hands.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

I took the liberty to send the question of to FFG.

[Rogue Dakotan 5,213]

I think for me there's a difference if they're just pointing to a spot on the map,compared to if they were using their finger as a ruler. Like know the length of your finger or hand and you can use it as a ruler. 

 

Just pointing is pretty much the same as eyeballing it in your mind sort of. 

 

If I had to say one way or the other, just don't do any of that at all, but as long as they're not just like "well I know my hand is about the width of a range band + 1 movement.... " It doesn't seem too egregious. 

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Pointing to a spot on the table you think you end up is one thing. Using your finger span to measure off of your base is another.

[Frando3 11]

Pointing to a spot on the table you think you end up is one thing. Using your finger span to measure off of your base is another.

The were doing this. Holding their fingers one base apart and then sliding them around to find where the barrel roll or boost would go. It's unacceptable to me.

[StevenO 2,996]

FFG should just DUMP the "no Measuring Rule" and instantly solve all of these issues about what constitutes measuring.

 

I've said it before what someone considers measuring can vary so much it's pathetic.  At one end you have measuring as actually dropping a template/rule on the table and seeing where it goes.  At the other other end you those who say that if you look at the table funny you're measuring.

 

As far as I'm concerned if you keep the templates/ruler off the board then you've satisfied the no-measuring clause.

[Frando3 11]

FFG should just DUMP the "no Measuring Rule" and instantly solve all of these issues about what constitutes measuring.

 

I've said it before what someone considers measuring can vary so much it's pathetic.  At one end you have measuring as actually dropping a template/rule on the table and seeing where it goes.  At the other other end you those who say that if you look at the table funny you're measuring.

 

As far as I'm concerned if you keep the templates/ruler off the board then you've satisfied the no-measuring clause.

What about using my fingers to determine if a barrel roll will dodge arc? I know the size of my fingers just as well as I know the size of the templates. My hands and fingers are rulers. I use them as such in the lab everyday.

[Frando3 11]

To clarify, these players measure the ship base with their thumb and finger. Then use that measurement to judge distances by sliding their hand around. Just as good as grabbing the 1 straight template and checking a barrel roll.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I seriously don't get how anyone can see that as acceptable.

Speaking personally, it's an is-ought distinction: there's a difference between "I'd be happy to see my opponent do it" and "I don't think it's forbidden by the rules."

But we know the rules don't function in that manner. The rules don't tell you all the things you can't do, they tell you the few things you can do.

I mean the argument can't really be well the rules don't say anything about me not being allowed to pre-measure with my hands.

 

I'm saying something more along the lines of "the rules say no pre-measuring, but touching the table where I think a ship will be isn't pre-measuring".

 

To clarify, these players measure the ship base with their thumb and finger. Then use that measurement to judge distances by sliding their hand around. Just as good as grabbing the 1 straight template and checking a barrel roll.

What's being described here clearly is pre-measuring, though, and it's illegal.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Ok I see where you were going then.

My initial reaction was specifically directed to the type of thing the OP clarified was going on. Like I just can't understand how people think that is acceptable in a game where you can't pre-measure.

[Stronghammer 195]

Yeah, sounds not cool to me.

at first I imagined that they were holding their hands / fingers quite a way off the table to estimate where it would be.

But that is obviously pre measuring, especially if they are marking the base size with their thumb.

[Klutz 1,590]

The rules are quite clear about all this :

"they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads"

 

 

I said this in the other thread and I'll repeat it here:

Fingers on the table are not "in their head" for any reasonable definition of "in their head".

[Rockpockalypse 22]

The rules are quite clear about all this :

"they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads"

 

 

I said this in the other thread and I'll repeat it here:

Fingers on the table are not "in their head" for any reasonable definition of "in their head".

 

Not to be "that guy" but that rule is stated during the "Planning" phase and is about using the maneuver templates when planning your maneuver. In fact the sentence preceding the one you chose to use, specifically starts with "During the Planning phase..."

 Actions like Barrel Roll, or Boost, take place during the "Activation" phase and I don't recall there being a rule in there specifically stating that you can't estimate actions with your fingers.  

 

I don't think it's right to do so, but it is a grey area.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Rules Question:

Are players, in tournament play, permitted to use thier finger/hands to pre-measure prior to selecting a maneuver or taking an action such as Boost or Barrel Roll?

Answer:

No. Players may only use their eyes.

Cheers,

Alex Davy

Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

No grey area there.

[Parravon 5,217]

Well, once again that question is answered. 

[Starslinger72 25]

To clarify, these players measure the ship base with their thumb and finger. Then use that measurement to judge distances by sliding their hand around. Just as good as grabbing the 1 straight template and checking a barrel roll.

Not sure if you had anyone else doing this besides me but I was 100% not measuring the distance of the base.  I think in terms of 2 distance on rolls and boosts anyway so unless you though I was doing some kind of set drag set to get a 2 distance down this wasn't the case.  What I was doing was trying to picture what the 45 degree change would look like from an angles boost which is why I put my hand down.  Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.  People have been doing what I was doing the whole time, and in front of both alex and frank and they have never said anything about it.  I didn't see anyone trying to mark off distances like what you are describing.  At best it was a ship will go here what will it look like when it gets there.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

And even that would not be in keeping with the clarification I posted from Alex.

[Klutz 1,590]

Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.

 

That is precisely what Alex confirmed in the previously posted e-mail, and corresponds to my interpretation of the tournament rules.

[Starslinger72 25]

 

Unless they want to state you cannot touch the play mat unless you have a move template in hand then this is a non issue.

 

That is precisely what Alex confirmed in the previously posted e-mail, and corresponds to my interpretation of the tournament rules.

 

And he can update the FAQ/tournament rules as such.  Mind you this is a pointless update but if it makes people feel better about the game then whatever.  Also note that an email reply to someone isn't really an official update to the game as someone could (not saying this happened just devils advocate and whatnot) just put text down as if it was from Alex or Frank.

[WargameHub 38]

The core rules are pretty clear.

 

"Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads."

 

In your head doesn't include hands, toes, templates, laser rangefinders, etc.  

Edited April 1, 2015 by WargameHub