Phantoms just got nerfed, hardcore

[z0m4d 727]

Amused by the initial inflammatory overreaction. Glad the clear-headed persisted in sharing perspective.

[ficklegreendice 34,363]

Death to the Phantom Menace! 

 

All Hail the Autocepters!  Long may we hate their reign! 

 

nah

 

Interceptors are actually glass cannons whereas Whisper wore the label like a corpulent blob that wears a post-it saying "actually very hot" and expects to be taken seriously

 

Interceptors become absolutely crippled when blocked, turning essentially into tie fighters. ACD Whisper gets a re-cloak, a target-lock, and a focus.

 

It's a pretty huge difference

Edited March 27, 2015 by ficklegreendice

[Major Tom 976]

Death to the Phantom Menace!

The Phantom is far from dead. In the hands of someone who knows his business they will still be deadly as all hell, especially against swarms of low PS ships. They may even be more effective as a true expert will be able to log-jam a swarm flown in formation then nip around behind it and crack some actionless heads. I suspect the load-out will change and the generics will come into play more. We may see more Phantoms (admittedly with more diverse pilots) rather than less as a result of this change.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Major Tom

[TIE Pilot 3,501]

TIE interceptors have three dice, three agility and three health. They sure can dance but the old phantom was in another league. Autothrusters isn't buffing them to the new broken, it's making turrets not auto die for them.

 

The new phantom has, bar its barrel roll (which comes at the cost of its action) pretty much lost its reactionary ability. You have pretty much no idea where it's going to end up but unlike before it's locked in at the start of the activation phase. You don't know where it is but unlike before it is somewhere.

Edited March 27, 2015 by TIE Pilot

[PhantomFO 9,103]

Death to the Phantom Menace! 

 

All Hail the Autocepters!  Long may we hate their reign!

[TheLoneDeranger 10]

I hope this isn't an April fools joke. I like the Phantom a lot, but I welcome the change. I was really starting to grow bored with it. I think the change will encourage people to try a larger variety of upgrades on the named Phantoms other than VI and AVD. I can't wait to experiment with things like Stay on Target, Advanced Sensors, Predator/Lone Wolf, Stygium Particle Accelerator, Engine Upgrade, etc.

 

The Phantom was just a bit too overpowered with the old rule. I felt bad for even using it, which sucks because of all the wave 4 ships the Phantom was the one I was most excited about back when they spoiled the wave 4 ships. Also, as someone else mentioned earlier the new rule makes a lot more sense from a flavor perspective. Under the old rules it felt like the Phantom had a teleporting device, not a cloaking device.

 

It will be interesting to see how this affects the meta game. Maybe we'll see swarms making more of a come-back.

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

EDIT: We crossposted.

 

P.S. I already did this on Nova episode 19, math summary here.

 

Chewbacca value on a 64 point (total) ship: 

(((13+2)/13)^0.5 -1)*60 = 4.4

 

Chewbacca value on a 58 point (total) ship (classic HSF): 

(((13+2)/13)^0.5 -1)*54 = 4.0053 <----- number referenced on NOVA podcast

 

Chewbacca provided about 0 points of net value* on HSF, and 0.5 points on a 64 point ship.

 

C-3P0 provides about 4 points of value on a 64 point ship. 4 is much larger than 0.5, therefore C-3P0 is autoinclude.

 

 

* with a free kicker that Chewbacca gets to choose when to discard a crit, making him a slightly net positive value.

 

 

Again, 20 seconds of math that yields better results than months of design and playtesting.

3.5 points of net value (as you say, actually a little less because Chewie lets you discard the first crit you don't want) is not actually all that big, given the level of noise introduced by dice and the game's geometry. It's not nothing, but it will be relatively difficult to observe in a particular match--and, as above, my overall point is that if substituting Chewie in for Threepio isn't enough to reliably swing a game toward your opponent, then Threepio isn't the broken game element some people are suggesting.

 

From our back and forth math, C-3P0 provides a value something between 2-4 times its cost. Outside of (probably) autothrusters or (pre nerf?) ACD, I don't think anything else in the game comes close to that ratio. So if C-3P0 is not broken, the I don't think that anything else in the game would be either, by a similar comparison. The point is just that the card is good - probably way too good for its cost.

 

And I understand what you're saying about the value of statistics to the design and playtest process, but if you'll recall I'm also a consistent advocate for the value of mathwing... so I'm not really sure who you're arguing with, here.

 

Nobody in particular, the 20 seconds of math comment was in reference to nova ep 19. The MathWing could have easily predicted before playtesting that C-3P0 was going to become auto-include and push fat falcons up the power curve. Maybe that's what they intended, I don't know. But I would be surprised if they intended for it to turn out quite as good as it did. It's not uncommon for the card to be worth 12 points as a game drags on, it is a pretty common occurrence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Totally unrelated to C-3P0, but back on topic, who else is excited to try playing Whisper now with the new rules? Being able to now block with Imperial 9's is an interesting concept....

[VanorDM 11,599]

Totally unrelated to C-3P0, but back on topic, who else is excited to try playing Whisper now with the new rules?

That is IMO one of the best parts of this change. It makes something other than Whisper + ACD + VI a viable option.

[Sithborg 11,662]

But how much in the power of Fat Falcons came from C-3PO vs 3 Z-95s? I don't see becoming more popular as a sign of an increase in power, either. The simple fact is that the Falcon has always been something one has to consider in the top tier. 

[WWHSD 9,273]

 I think the change will encourage people to try a larger variety of upgrades on the named Phantoms other than VI and AVD. I can't wait to experiment with things like Stay on Target, Advanced Sensors, Predator/Lone Wolf, Stygium Particle Accelerator, Engine Upgrade, etc.

 

I'm guessing that we'll see a few weeks of people trying Whisper and Echo will other options but in the end VI and ACD will continue to be the strongest option (especially for Whisper). Cloaking for free every turn is kind of a big deal and knowing if you'll be able to cloak with ACD or need to spend an action to do it is important for a Phantom's survival. 

[channellockjon 120]

C3po at 5 activations equals 3 life on 1 def ship. Burned off in 2.564 attacks

Chewie equals 2 life. On 2 def ship this burned off in 2.222 attacks.

Ysanne at 3 activations equals 3 life. On 0 def ship this is burned off in 2 attacks.

1 hull on 3 def ship is burned in 1.49 attacks.

Attacks are made actionless for simplicity (which favors low def ships).

[negative9 231]

C3pO was also made more powerful because of the phantom.  The phantom caused the meta to shift to less ships.  Witch will let 3p0 trigger more times and make him more valuable.  He is probably not worth his points against a BBBBZ list for example.

 

He also gets a weird bump in power perspective because even if you guess 0, and then roll a natural evade, the perception is that 3p0 negated damage....but it is not true.  If the card was worded different, say,  "once per round roll a dice, if you get an evade result you get nothing, any other result add one evade"  we would have a different feeling about the card.  I would guess that he on average prevents 3 actual damage in any given game.  Compare that to chewie, whom we have always had.  Chewie is guaranteed to prevent 2, and often cancels a direct damage card to prevent one more.   So about the same. But it is less powerful than something that would give you a free action every turn.  

[GreatMazinkaiser 1,335]

It's an interesting choice on FFG's part. The biggie Phantoms might be a bit overcosted now (particularly Whisper), but I think all this really does is take the training wheels off. The skill ceiling is now higher, and that's a good thing.

[Marinealver 8,073]

People realise 3PO is significantly weaker than Isard, right? 3PO is mathematically 5/8s of a free evade token, and Isard is a whole evade token. 3PO + and evade die caps at one damage cancelled, Isard and an evade die (Kenkirk) can block two, and that's without spending an action.

 

3PO only triggers once per round. He's either going to cancel one damage or the evade die will have cancelled it anyway. He's a threat when you're attacking a Falcon with a single ship, but focus fire on the thing and the odds of survival are, well, never tell him the odds.

Issard doesn't work under stress.

[Critias 877]

I will never understand how people are seriously thinking (or "worried about") this is an April Fool's joke.  There's a level of legit concern over being pranked, and then there's just paranoia, people.  In the middle of tournament season, on an issue this contentious, there's no way a company with FFG's professionalism is going to release a serious, polished, document like this, providing an elegant solution to a complaint players have made for this long, as a "joke."

 

What's next, is Armada not really a thing, it's all an elaborate hoax?

[negative9 231]

when this thread started...the new FAQ  was not up.  We had a link to an article that looked legit but it was not on the official page.  And the link did not initially work for all people, myself included.  So we did not think it was a prank by FFG, but rather could have been a well polished prank by an enterprising forum member.

[TheNewShmoo 71]

I would have preferred that they ban ACD in tournament play. I think ACD is the real problem, not the Phantom itself or the timing of its decloak. I don't know if this goes far enough.

 

But as long as the tournament meta game no longer revolves around either playing or countering Phantom builds and the number and variety of viable builds increases, I will be happy.

 

 

[Dagonet 7,246]

Cloaking for free every turn is kind of a big deal 

 

 

But less so now that the decloak isn't an advanced sensored super barrel roll but a commitment at the start of the activation phase.

[Forgottenlore 9,839]

I would have preferred that they ban ACD in tournament play. I think ACD is the real problem, not the Phantom itself or the timing of its decloak. I don't know if this goes far enough.

 

But as long as the tournament meta game no longer revolves around either playing or countering Phantom builds and the number and variety of viable builds increases, I will be happy.

So...what? It's ok for non-tournament players to be stuck with a broken, overpowered unit that warps the meta and creates hideously unfun games where only 15% of the ships in the game can be played with any hope of winning, as long as the tiny fraction of players that go to tournaments can have a balanced game.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Forgottenlore

[blagmasterg 137]

Without ACD, a phantom is a really expensive ship that can do nothing. Think about it - if you are cloaked, you can't attack, if you decloak, you're on two agility dice in a ship that only has two shields and two hull points. If ACD didn't exist, I highly doubt that the phantom would be a viable ship to use at all.

And it's still not overpowered in my opinion. It takes practice and real skill to use one properly, you still have to have stuff in arc and it can still die even cloaked (four blank evade dice is not all THAT uncommon).

The adjustment is interesting - it will probably change the way Phantoms are used and see a lot more use of the generics. That's got to be a positive thing for EVERYBODY, not just tourney players

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

Phantoms without ACD are still good for their cost. They have 4 attack and the decloak maneuver is still good even if you're not getting it for free. 4 of them is not only quite hilarious but can blow away a large ship if you're careful enough with them on the approach and get to fire with all 4 in the first volley. Flying a swarm and splashing one in is a good way to boost a list. You're throwing the same amount of dice as 2 TIE Fighters except concentrated into one 4 dice attack. Unless I was facing a zero agility target I'd rather have one attack of 4 dice than 2 attacks of 2 dice, which are trash against 3+ agility.

[KTreu42 323]

Laughing at anyone who thinks this is unfair. Phantoms were unacceptably strong, everyone who says they "ruined" the ship is dead wrong.  You can build it differently and still do some arc dodging with high PS and barrel rolling or even Engine Upgrade if you want.  It'll take some adjusted tactics and upgrades, but it's still a viable ship. 

[TheNewShmoo 71]

 

So...what? It's ok for non-tournament players to be stuck with a broken, overpowered unit that warps the meta and creates hideously unfun games where only 15% of the ships in the game can be played with any hope of winning, as long as the tiny fraction of players that go to tournaments can have a balanced game.

 

I'm not really worried about casual play. Casual players are less likely to abuse unbalanced elements of a game to the point that is destroys the fun of other players. If they do they will have a hard time finding people who want to play with them. Casual players can play however and with whomever they want. If a casual player thinks it is not fun to play with or against squads that contain the phantom or ACD they can simply choose to not play with or against them. And if they think tournament rules are better/more fair/more fun, again, they can choose to play with them. Tournament players don't have any choice.

[Swanny 6]

I must say I'm dissappointed with this for a few reasons.
1) If the Phantom was fundamentally unbalanced, then why are we not all flying phantoms?
2) If the Phantom was fundementally unbalanced, then why did last year's "World" go to a fat Han, which would have also had to beat a bunch of squadrons that did not include Phantoms. So will the next FAQ include a rule to neutralise the fat Han?
3) This rule change has come out after the community has already found a number of counters for Phantoms, such as fat Han and high Pilot Skill turretted ships, making the Phantom a priority target, Heavy Laser Cannons, Nera with Adv Prot Torp + Recon Spec + Deadeye, Ten Numb with Mangler, etc, all of which have worked for me in the past.
4) No corresponding reduction to the Phantom's cost for what is a pretty serious loss in capability.
5) but I think the biggest factor is that: if this was so fundamentally broken, as the need for this rule suggests it is, then why has it taken so long for something to be done about it? Instead, we have all had to learn and start playing it one way, and now we all have to learn a new way, which will only lead to confusion. It's like some drunk at the wheel that has let the car drift too far one way, and now they have tried to correct it, but instead, over-steared back the other way, with obvious consequences.

Whether the rule has changed for better or worse seems heavily dependant on the players perspective, that is, whether they fly phantoms or not. Personally there is more stuff introduced by Scum that is of concern to me than Phantoms ever were.

At least the owner of this rule change will get exactly what they want, there will be far less phantoms out there from now on. I hope they are happy with this. I'm not.

[Sithborg 11,662]

I must say I'm dissappointed with this for a few reasons.

1) If the Phantom was fundamentally unbalanced, then why are we not all flying phantoms?

2) If the Phantom was fundementally unbalanced, then why did last year's "World" go to a fat Han, which would have also had to beat a bunch of squadrons that did not include Phantoms. So will the next FAQ include a rule to neutralise the fat Han?

3) This rule change has come out after the community has already found a number of counters for Phantoms, such as fat Han and high Pilot Skill turretted ships, making the Phantom a priority target, Heavy Laser Cannons, Nera with Adv Prot Torp + Recon Spec + Deadeye, Ten Numb with Mangler, etc, all of which have worked for me in the past.

4) No corresponding reduction to the Phantom's cost for what is a pretty serious loss in capability.

5) but I think the biggest factor is that: if this was so fundamentally broken, as the need for this rule suggests it is, then why has it taken so long for something to be done about it? Instead, we have all had to learn and start playing it one way, and now we all have to learn a new way, which will only lead to confusion. It's like some drunk at the wheel that has let the car drift too far one way, and now they have tried to correct it, but instead, over-steared back the other way, with obvious consequences.

Whether the rule has changed for better or worse seems heavily dependant on the players perspective, that is, whether they fly phantoms or not. Personally there is more stuff introduced by Scum that is of concern to me than Phantoms ever were.

At least the owner of this rule change will get exactly what they want, there will be far less phantoms out there from now on. I hope they are happy with this. I'm not.

 

A ship doesn't have to be consistently winning to warp the meta. The Phantoms were warping the meta, encouraging the use of Fat Turrets. And the Phantom was proving to be difficult for many things that are able to handle the Fat Turrets. With the Phantom less of a threat, this allows squads that are able to compete against Fat Turrets to flourish. The Phantom constricted the meta, but this change will allow it to start to grow again.