Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
DanteKaiser

Why use only one weapon?

Recommended Posts

Hi and sorry about my bad english 

I have a question, why a PC will use only a weapon? with two weapon wilder yo can do double lighting attack o doble full burst, so, why a character will use only a weapon?

I do not see the advantages of using a weapon only.

Thanks and sorry if I can not make me understand!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you refer to Melee combat?

If you want to be an effective Melee fighter, you can either use a 2 handed weapon for more damage, or 2 one handed. The difference is, that wielding 2 weapons effectivly costs a lot of XP. You need Ambidextrous, 2 weapon wielder (Melee) and 2 weapon mastery. Add this to the swift and lightning attack talents and your character can't do anything else than Melee for a long long time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See [madMAEXX]'s comment above, but dual-wielding being the "superior" option has been part of the system since DH1. There have never been any real incentives for one-weapon wielding or, conversely, enough "penalties" (I use the word lightly) for dual-wielding. Thanks to the devils of multiplication, melee Damage spikes when the character's Strength Bonus gets applied equally to two weapons. Two-handed weapons not only exclude dual-wielding by their nature, but are typically Unwieldy, shutting out Lightning Attacks as well. Dual-wielding and Lightning Attacks can easily churn out SBx6, where a sole two-handed weapon struggles to do that much. Basic weapons, which are also arguably balanced around their usual two-handedness, have any number of methods of turning them into one-handed monstrosities. So yeah, there is very little reason not to dual-wield.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See [madMAEXX]'s comment above, but dual-wielding being the "superior" option has been part of the system since DH1. There have never been any real incentives for one-weapon wielding or, conversely, enough "penalties" (I use the word lightly) for dual-wielding. Thanks to the devils of multiplication, melee Damage spikes when the character's Strength Bonus gets applied equally to two weapons. Two-handed weapons not only exclude dual-wielding by their nature, but are typically Unwieldy, shutting out Lightning Attacks as well. Dual-wielding and Lightning Attacks can easily churn out SBx6, where a sole two-handed weapon struggles to do that much. Basic weapons, which are also arguably balanced around their usual two-handedness, have any number of methods of turning them into one-handed monstrosities. So yeah, there is very little reason not to dual-wield.

 

The 'balance' against dual-wielding is that your attacks are at a significant penalty unless you invest a sizable chunk of XP into combat talents. So while dual wielding may be the mechanically optimal behavior, not everyone will go down that road due to the cost of doing so.

 

I think this is a dumb, boring way to balance combat approaches, but there it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

 

Running some of the math, [Two-Weapon Wielder] + [Lightning Attack] starts at a -30 penalty, yes? -20 for the former, -10 for the latter, though the character is also foregoing the +10 bonus from a Standard Attack. Combined, there is a +/-40 WS swing and a maximum 3,000 XP (900 + 900 + 1200) rift between single-wielding and Lightning dual-wielding weapons for melee. Of course, Swift and Lightning Attack are not needed for dual-wielding ranged weapons, possibly having Full Auto baked into the weapons' profile, dialing back the XP requirement to Two-Weapon Wielder's maximum 900 XP cost.

 

The [Ambidextrous] Talent shaves off -10 from the penalty for 600 XP at most. Best-craftsmanship melee weapons (by RAW) further combat the penalty with +10 WS; combining both reduces the Lightning dual-wielding penalty to -10. Ranged weapons, on the other hand, are arguably better off in regards to accessibility. In addition to Ambidextrous, ranged weapons can be modified with a [Pistol Grip] (fully negating the -20 penalty to wield Basic weapons one-handed), a [Targeter] (potentially off-setting -10 worth of penalties), and/or a [Motion Predictor] (fully negating the Full Auto penalty). All together, a character can theoretically dual-wield Full Auto Basic weapons at a +/-0 BS modifier before other circumstances. This is all RAW just from DH2 - Core, only skimming (scumming?) the surface of possibilities from other books.

 

Lastly, I want to analyze cost. Using the RAW chargen method, the elusive [Finesse] Aptitude can only come from the [Assassin] and [Desperado] Roles, not able to be substituted in by doubled Aptitudes. For the sake of argument, my hypothetical character will not use the Finesse Aptitude, only Weapon or Ballistic Skill as appropriate. With one matching Aptitude, Lightning dual-wielding's cost drops from 3,000 XP to 1,500 XP, fairly reasonable given melee's aggressive scaling. Ambidextrous would cost an additional 300 XP for a sum of 1,800 XP. Full Auto dual-wielding merely costs Two-Weapon Wielder's and Ambidextrous' halved XP totals, a modest 750 XP. Of course, with low Characteristic scores (e.g., in the high 20's/low 30's), any penalty is significant. With one matching Aptitude, +10 to a Characteristic will cost 750 XP total. For ranged weapons, there is only one Characteristic to worry about, but melee weapons often require Weapon Skill and Strength to scale properly. Without delving into specific combat situations, dual-wielded melee weapons have a steep XP curve but can (theoretically) pay out with more Damage output. Dual-wielded Basic weapons have both a high floor and an easily accessible ceiling for near-immediate benefits, Point-Blank bonuses, and several modifications to play with besides.

 

Your mileage may vary; this post was more or less an excuse to get my thoughts out. For the record, I also think that this brand of combat-"balancing" is horribly skewed, but I am working with what was provided. Ole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing that can compare to just spamming dual lightning attacks that become rather absurd once power-weapons are available seems to be the

 

- Devastating Assault

- Hammer Blow

- Inescapeable Attack

 

Combo with something like a Power Fist. It might not have that much of a peak damage though it does work against most you might encounter and also grants some appeal to unwieldy weapons that would otherwise be total junk.

 

As for one-handed weapons I am still waiting for reasonable wargear like actually usefull shields and given the power creep already available a Storm Shield like used by the Crusaders would make one handed weapons viable for they now offer more protection. Parrying ranged attacks might also be cool. xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it's a poorly thought out mechanic implemented poorly.

 

Par for the course for DH2.

 

Par for the course for the whole line from DH1 - 2 weapons really is the best option.  I'm noticing this even in Base Deathwatch, it's ridiculous.

 

Though even more honestly, it's par for the course for the majority of games out there, not just 40k.  Oh I know there are plenty of exceptions, but the vast majority of systems seem to reward dual wielding well beyond the realities, where it almost demonstrably inferior to single or sword and board.   (Seriously, I have read through well in excess of 100, probably even 200 systems, and I'd wager 80% of them make dual weapons ideal)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Par for the course for the whole line from DH1 - 2 weapons really is the best option.  I'm noticing this even in Base Deathwatch, it's ridiculous.

 

 

I'm willing to forgive DH1 since it's very much a product of its era. DH2 was released in a time when other games have figured all this crap out yet repeated all the same mistakes. It has no excuse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure I agree on other games figuring it out yet either...  On a grand scale.  Too many make it 'kewl' - I personally hate it, but sadly, it's so ubiquitous in the hobby.  I blame Drizzt. 

 

That said, it is, at least, representative of the theme, where in both novels and wargames, two weapons is the sign of a melee master.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So it's a poorly thought out mechanic implemented poorly.

 

Par for the course for DH2.

 

Par for the course for the whole line from DH1 - 2 weapons really is the best option.  I'm noticing this even in Base Deathwatch, it's ridiculous.

 

Though even more honestly, it's par for the course for the majority of games out there, not just 40k.  Oh I know there are plenty of exceptions, but the vast majority of systems seem to reward dual wielding well beyond the realities, where it almost demonstrably inferior to single or sword and board.   (Seriously, I have read through well in excess of 100, probably even 200 systems, and I'd wager 80% of them make dual weapons ideal)

I am not actually convinced that the orginal design of DH1 did intend Dual Wield to be that great (at least for melee). Now the dual wielding rules were not clear, and they needed signficant clarification (clarification that didn't get added to the base book for RT, and I think maybe even DW, and so they needed clarifaction as well). Over time it was made explicit that you could Dual Wield and Lightning attack (for example). However, I don't know this was actually intended by the original designers, as Dual Wielding and Swift/Lightning attack are their own seperate actions. From this I have wondered if this was deliberate and the best you could do with dual wielding was two attacks, so was primarily intended for deperado gunslingers, rather than melee combatants (especially as there was no talent to remove the final penalty on dual wielding melee weapons).

If you look at WFRP 2nd (the system DH came from) there is actually no offensive advantage to dual wielding (except possibly choice of weapon), and it only gave you defensive benefits.

 

Of course both GW and FFG are terrible at writing their rules tightly the first time round and so I may just be giveing more credit than was really due.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe a few extra talents specifically for two-handed melee weapons would help. Like doubling the damage bonus you get from strength and/or making a sweeping attack that attacks everything in front of your character?

Edited by Gridash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe a few extra talents specifically for two-handed melee weapons would help. Like doubling the damage bonus you get from strength and/or making a sweeping attack that attacks everything in front of your character?

 

I like that idea. 

As a side-note: What people seem to overlook is that two-handed weapons actually become better dew to the change in righteous fury. since more chances to roll 10 doesn't mean more chances to do ridicules damage, a higher bade damage has become somewhat more important, especially against a very tough opponent.

 

Also: What Asymtomatic seemed to have forgotten while calculating the XP-costs for the package is that you also need the prerequisites. And 45 Ag for Two-Weapon-Master alone can, depending on character and aptitudes, be anything form 100-6250 XP. For some characters it is simply not viable to go that route.    

Edited by Duskwalker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Away from my usual base; laconically, I would rather "soften" dual-wielding by splitting the wielder's SB between the two weapons rather than strengthen two-handed weapons.

For the record, I intentionally did not mention Two-Weapon Master exactly because of the cost. Two-Weapon Wielding does not need T-WM to be effective. TW-M sets the bar needlessly high for the purpose of my argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest issue is the amount of points you are allowed to invest in two-weapon wielding in order to overcome the "disadvantages" it has. There are not as much advancement to be found in other fighting styles, meaning that for a long term game dual wielding is by far the strongest choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dual wielding is awesome, but here's 5 reasons why its not always quite that awesome.

 

1)  Range.

 

Dual wiedling your range is limited to 30m, that means you are getting shot at at least once by anyone who isn't dual wielding, and in some cases can be taking as many as 4 rounds of shots as you run to close the distance.  Whilst many other facets of play allow you to start an encounter at close range, such as stealth.  However you must assume, that your single weapon foe has at least equivalent skills and thus theres a 50% chance you start in melee range and 50% chance you start in a field with no cover.  No matter what stage of xp you have in the game, you are going to be outranged by at least 3 times.  Someone just suppressing with an autogun will genrally be enough that you can't get close.

 

2) Damage.

 

Dual wielding allows you to clear out the trash, but there is a curve of damage, as toughness and armour rise, dual wieldings damage drops off, until it is is doing less than a single well placed sniper shot, and then continues to drop off until it is incapable of doing any damage except hoping for a righteous fury to do a lil crit dmg.  It may require two hands, but an autocannon does not lack for damage.  Xp for xp, a dual wielding character will -never- have the damage output of a heavy weapon or a psyker using a force weapon.

 

3) Gear.

 

Your weapon is your life, it decides so much of your characters capabilities, and its a pretty simple case here, dual wielding, you need two of them.  What ever power level you are playing at, this means inevitably that the person who just single wields, has another super tasty item to match up with it.  You have two chain swords, they have an autogun and frag grenades, you have a bolt pistol and plasma pistol, they have an autocannon and chameoline cloak.  You have two storm bolters, modded for one handed use with recoil gloves, inferno shells, they have a force staff and a chimera with a power field. (Psyker with a tank!!! Hey GM what's our subtlety rating at....).

 

4) Experience

 

Assuming that you start with 40 Agi, and 40 in either WS or BS the following are the costs per role of dual wielding, not starting with agilty 40, is going to cost you 250-750xp:

 

Assassin: 1300xp (300xp cheaper if Adeptus Arbites + Hiveworld Offence + WS/BS)

Chirugeon: 3000xp (1150xp cheaper if Adeptus Arbites + Feral or Forge Offence + WS/BS)

Desperado: 1300xp (300xp cheaper Adeptus Arbites + Noble Offence+WS)

Hierophant: 2400xp (800xp cheaper from many combos of WS+Agi)

Mystic: 3000xp (1150xp cheaper if Adeptus Arbites + Forge, Void, Shrine, Hive Offence + WS/BS)

Sage: 2600xp (1050xp cheaper if Adeptus Arbites + Forge, Void, Shrine, Hive Offence + WS/BS)

Seeker: 3000xp (1150xp cheaper if Adeptus Arbites + Forge, Void, Noble, Hive Offence + WS/BS)

Warrior: 1750xp (250xp cheaper if Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Astra Telepathica Agi)

 

(if you have Enemies Within Book, Adeptus Soriatus can substitute for Adeptus Arbites, and most the new homeworlds can be used to give WS or BS, so more char gen options, but the xp costs stand)

 

1000-3000xp and forced agility 40. (agi 35 adds 250-750xp, agi 30 adds 750-1750xp, agi 25 adds 1500-2550xp) 

 

5) Character

 

This is the most important thing of all, the aesethic of a character may not be conducive to dual wielding.  It is cool, but loads of other things are cool too

 

So in conclusion, its got a lot of drawbacks, but it does let you do pretty good damage, it's certainly viable and looks cool, but it is somewhat lack lustre compared to sniper and heavy weapons for ranged combat, and puts you in a bit of a gear deficit against single wielding melee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dual wielding is awesome, but here's 5 reasons why its not always quite that awesome.

 

1)  Range.

 

2) Damage.

 

3) Gear.

 

4) Experience

 

5) Character

 

So in conclusion, its got a lot of drawbacks, but it does let you do pretty good damage, it's certainly viable and looks cool, but it is somewhat lack lustre compared to sniper and heavy weapons for ranged combat, and puts you in a bit of a gear deficit against single wielding melee.

 

There are plenty of reasons why not everyone in the party should be dual wielding melee maniacs. Most significantly it would make for a boring game - which is kinda an important point.

 

When it comes to game mechanics the dual wield melee style blows everything else out of the water once the players achieves a certain level of XP. Think 10000 or more XP. It will not be uncommon for a player to connect maybe 5-7 power sword hits in one round (remember they can reroll a failed attack)...

Edited by Alox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have issue with the not uncommon thing, its roughly 35% chance of happening on a round where you start the turn within agi bonus meters of your opponent.   It's this overstatement of the effectiveness of dual wield that confuses the issue, it's basically only viable for assassins and desperado's and at a cost of basically all your xp.  Furthermore, no overwatch, which is actually the most damage you can do 5-7 hits is not comparable to your ammo in hits.

 

So anyway, here are some other fighting styles with their pros and cons, and you decide if dual wield really is the "only option".

 

1) Flamers

 

Plus points:  xp cost is just 300 for flame weapon training, it requires absolutely zero stats not even ballistic skill. They are incredibly accurate at the start of the game, and boast higher than average damage, with the addition of a crowd control effect and extra damage for the following rounds.

 

Minus points: they do not scale at all, in the end your investment in flamers is utterly useless because nothing you are fighting is hurt by them anymore.  They have horrendously short range.

 

2) Long Las/Sniper Rifle

 

Plus points:  Ridiculously accurate and incredibly high damage, Out range everything but heavy weapons. In most encounters you will be getting the +10 short range bonus to every attack, combined with the +20 for a half action aim, +10 for a standard attack and optional red dot laser sight for another +10  you have as much as +50 BS to each shot.  Damage stays viable until the end game. almost zero xp cost, only a few people lack one of the required talents.  Excellent overwatch.

 

Minus Points:  You cannot move and fire without losing massive damage output unless you somehow manage a MIU interface. Very little scaling after buying the inescapable attacks talent. Best quality weapon does nothing, and improving ballistic skill has an incredibly small impact on the damage output.  Most BS talents have a neglible effect on the damage output (+2 to +3 dmg for a tier 3 talent doesn't matter much when you already do 3d10).  Lack of subtlety, it is very hard to hide a sniper rifle without making it compact.

 

3) Heavy Weapons

 

Plus points: Damage is incredible and scales really really well.  Cheap XP costs (300-600xp for the weapon training all that is needed).  Scales well with xp and influence allowing more weapon upgrades until it reaches its zenith with auto cannon/multi laser at BS 65 and +15 from weapon mods giving you a 90% chance to hit (short range counters semi auto) so you are on 90% chance for 1 hit, 89% chance for 2 and 69% for 3.  Each hit is 3d10+11 pen 6.

 

Minus points: The only thing less subtle is driving a tank around.  Unnatural Agility means any succesful dodge will negate your entire attack.  They are -so- heavy, even with suspensors you need a lod of str or toughness (toughness is ofc good anyway so not the worst draw back.) 

 

4) Missile Launcher (Technically a heavy weapon, but so good it deserves its own mention)

 

Plus points:  Xp cost is 600xp max.  Surprisingly accurate (+20 for standard attack and short range). By default, its attacks are all but undodgable. Blast 5 requires an agility bonus of 5 to allow dodging in the first place.  Option to use Krak missiles instead for silly damage vs tougher targets however 2d10+2 pen 2 is not exactly bad int he first place, and you might hit multiple targets.  Upgrade options are a lot of fun, with Backpack ammo supply letting you overwatch for high explosive fun, and a free +10 to hit for aiming instead of reloading.

 

Minus Points: No subtelty, it's very easy to dodge, 1 success is enough.  Massive reload time early game.  Not many enemies really need to be shot with a rocket its somewhat overkill and may give you a bad name.

 

(a slight note here, the actual game rules state that a blast weapon scatters d5 meters on a failed BS attempt, however with a blast 5 weapons this becomes very silly because it means it hits, opening up some rather stupid char combinations, such as the scribe with 25 BS no talents in heavy or launcher weapons, and not even bracing it, able to fire the missile at -60 to hit watch them scatter less than 5 meters and still hit the target.  A simple ruling of them scattering d5 meters per degree of failure makes this a lot more sensible, but if your GM is totally by the book then you go for it with the silliness of the missile launcher)

 

5) A defensive play style

 

Plus points: Your risk of death is far less.  It's incredibly low on xp, Armour monger and dodge/parry skills the only expenditure required. (it's possible to create a starting char adeptus mechanicus that has a TB of 5 and 9 armour, enough to bounce most weapons, notice that it has enough to require a powersword to have strength 5 to do more than a d10 damage, at 10k xp, armour 20 chest and TB 6 which leaves a powersword requiring a SB of 4 to deal 1 damage if it rolls a 10.  40% of attacks negated since they strike the super heavy chest armour, another 35% negated by the forcefield.  Sister of battle with cyberware and armourmonger not to be messed with.  End game you have a displacer field which negates all additional hits from a melee attack (they have to be assigned to someone in range and after the first succesful displace you move 3d10 meters away, which will almost certainly be more than agi bonus range so no more dual wields for the combat, all you can do is charge)

 

Minus points:  So much gear needed.  Special attacks are a real problem, those that target willpower or agility, as they will quickly overcome your defences at a rate far faster than you are able to counter.

 

6) Psyker

 

Plus points:  Assail early game is highly effective crowd control+dmg option (59% chance to knock target d5 yds away and prone if psy 2 +10 if psy 3), 5000xp gets you psy 5 and a choice of psy powers that well are generally terminal for your enemy in someway, be it controlling their actions or causing 2d10+15 Blast 5 flame damage, 10000xp puts you in the realms of force weapon attacks for 5d10+10 dmg

 

Minus points:  On average 500 power uses will either a) kill you, or b) be so crippling you will wish you died.  Its about the only drawback of being a psyker but its a ge one.

 

7) Drive a tank

 

Plus points: you obliterate everything in your path with little concern for your safety.

 

Minus points: none.  Tanks are amazing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flamers and other incendiaries scale quite well. Anything that can be affected by fatigue is vulnerable to it. Their only real issue remains range.

 

I would also point out that unless the text to mighty shot has been changed considerably, you may be able to ridiculously increase your damage with accurate weapons. I don't have a copy of DH2e here atm to check, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you dual wield you straight up double the amount of damage you can do, and with some xp investment it comes at no disadvantage. It is poor game design.

 

As you point out there are many fighting styles, and often quite more entertaining than the dual wield min/maxer. So the game master just needs to make sure that the battle situations vary to keep things interesting.

Edited by Alox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is XP an infinite resource in every game or something, where you play characters indefinitely and never start over? yes dual wielding has the best damage scaling but it comes at the cost of something else, either skills or other talents or different equipment. 

 

The only way I see dual wielding not having consequences is with never ending campaigns and narrow combat design that encourages short range brawls against low to mid strength enemies that your multiple hits work well against. That or you somehow manage to always have an infinite supply of equipment and ammunition.

 

Maybe its just the campaigns I've been on. Or maybe i just like having non combat skills and defensive talents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking similar... don't think I have ever played a 40k rpg game to 10,000 XP. OK, I am aware 2nd edition increased the cxp gain, but that is still a heck of a lot of xp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've played a chaos game to 26k. I'd like to say it was a Black Crusade game, but we scrapped most of the system a quarter of the way through, because it just no longer supported what we were doing. In DH1, results vary. Generally the difficulty there is living long enough to attain such XP levels, but that's mostly because I have been asked to make things hard by my players and show no mercy. So, they decided to tangle with gene stealers at rank 3. Should be amusing...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...